Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay so as you can tell I'm a "gecko person". I personally don't have a Beardie but my neighbor does and I'm concerned about it. I know a few things about a variety of reptiles besides the geckos that I breed but needless to say I know ENOUGH to be concerned. Sydney (the bearded)is JUST now a year old and it went through winter shutdown this past winter. IMO, this was too early for it's first winter shutdown, what do you think? I went over to look at it today cause the owner seemed worried. I quickly noticed a few things. Here is what I saw:

1) It was not alert, it noticed no food and kept it's eyes closed.
2)It's back legs seemed to be "out of sorts", whenever the dragon tried to walk(which was very rarely) it's legs would flop around like he couldn't control them.
3) skinny, teh owner said it was eating a week ago and hten it just stopped and then of course it had "winter shutdown" thru the winter.
4)It just laid there, just taking a glance at it you could tell that something was wrong.
5) It's mouth was like puffed out above it's bottom lip, I saw this same lizard about two weeks ago and it's mouth wasn't like this. It looked like a infection or something...It didn't look like mouth rot though(I've seen several cases of that). Then someone mentioned MBD..what do you guys think?

Okay, so to sum it all up I'm just wondering what the beardie people think of this. I insisted that they see a vet like TOMORROW. I feel sorry for the lizard though, they said all they were going to do is take it to a petshop to get their "opinion". I'm hoping for a vet visit though. So again what are you guys thinking? I don't have any pics but I could get some tomorrow I think. Thanks for reading, I'm sorry this is so long.
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Katie F.
Peach State Geckos
Breeding Mealworms
My Email

Sounds like they have some serious husbandry issues. MBD is definately a possibility, expecially with the back leg issues. My dragon is 3 years old I think and has never brumated.

It sounds like the dragon is lacking a UVB light, and possibly a high enough heat source, along with a lack of calcium. All of these issues need to be corrected. It should see a vet too, the vet can give calcium injections and figure out what is wrong with it's mouth. The vet can also do x-rays to determine the extent of the MBD.
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A mans got to do what a mans got to do. A woman has to do what he can't.

Mom to:

1 little boy born 7/19/04
2 male RES, born 1999
1 ribbon snake, age unknown
3 FBT, ages unknown
1 female bearded dragon, born 5/2002
1 male lab mix, born 5/24/03
1 female calico cat, born 6/7/04

____

sig file edited 1/29/05 [phw]

Yea, that's what I thought also. I think he said that they just now got a UVB light about a week ago. The beardie not having that light source probably has alot to do with it's condition. I'm going to see if I can talk to him today and give him like a hundred reasons to go to the vet. I don't want this poor lizard to suffer anymore. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks.
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Katie F.
Peach State Geckos
Breeding Mealworms
My Email

Though it's not unusual for a bearded dragon to brumate within it's first year, it certainly shouldn't come out in teh condition you described. The swollen mouth and floppy legs are indications of MBD. Sometimes it is called rubber jaw because the bones ars so soft from leached calcium they no longer have their rigidity.

You deffinitely have to press upon your friend that he needs to take his dragon to the vet ASAP. Taking it to the petstore is next to useless unless they have a qualified vet on staff (not likely though some petstores do take animals to a vet for regular checkups but these are few and far between). Direct your friend here, to the bearded dragon forum, bearded dragon caresheets etc, so he understands his dragon is sick and can die if it doesn't see a vet.

Find out what the basking temp is, what size crickets, what kind of greens he feeds it, the substrate he uses and how often he cleans the cage. What size of cage is also important. Also, what size is the dragon?

A healthy dragon would be active, looking around his environment and deffinitely checking out anybody approaching his cage, maybe even extending his bearded to strangers. His tail base would be nice and thick with no sign of pretruding bones along the hips. On the head should be two small mounds, called fat stores. Though would be bumps in a healthy dragon, but if one is starving, they woudl be sunking.
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PHLdyPayne

Thanks for the reply, here are the answers to your questions.

Basking temp: Probably around 90*

Size crickets: Large andf then on occasions mealworms.

What kind of greens he feeds: Romaine ( he said that romaine had enough calcium in it so that's why he hasn't been dusting his greens with calcium.)

What substrate he uses: Ground Walnut shell...last night we changed it over to paper towels just for the time being since it is sick. ( I told him to use tile afterwards)

How often he cleans the cage: well he's had this lizard for about a year and he hasn't cleaned out the tank the whole time..he spot cleans the poop though and changes the water

Size of the dragon: it's just over a year old and about 11in long

What size cage: 20gal long I know it's way to small!
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Katie F.
Peach State Geckos
Breeding Mealworms
My Email

Wow Kate! Sounds like your friend is doing everything wrong,I really hope you can talk some sense into him.

Basking temps, 100-110.

substrate, washed playsand for adults
papertowels for babies.Walnut sheel is the worst,it is very sharp and will cut up the dragons insides.

Greens, Romaine is ok but not as a staple.It does not have enought calcium.Collard greens and mustard greens are much better,so are dandelion greens.Should have had vitamins/calcium daily as a baby and every other day as an adult.

Insects, Sounds like he is ok with these but he could also add silkies and waxworms to the diet.

Cleaning, thrown out and replace the substrate every 2-3 months,scrub the tank out 2-3 times a year,more if it getts escessivly dirty.

Size, a year old dragon should be way over 11"

Tank, if this poor guys live he should be moved into a 40 gallon long.My hatchling is in a 20 gal long and will go into a 75 gal when he is bigger.

I will post a couple of good links to food charts,can you print them for your friend?

http://home.comcast.net/~holachapulin/Nutrition.html

http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections index-req-viewarticle-artid-98-page-1.html

A good care sheet
http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/caresheet/

Thanks for the links and the info....after doing this research I'm so amazed at how awful this lil beardie is being taken care of. I'll let you know what happens.
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Katie F.
Peach State Geckos
Breeding Mealworms
My Email

Ai agree, your friend is taking AWFUL care of that beardie and i am surprised he is still alive.

Like everyone said: Temps are too low, substrate is wrong, diet is wrong, tank size is wrong, and bearide size is terrible! At one year my beardie was almost full grown. Talk to your friend about the care of beardies and if they wont comply, suggest they find the beardie a new owner who will
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0.1 Bearded dragon
0.1 mexican kingsnake
1.0.2 Leopard Gecko's
0.0.1 Rose Hair Tarantula
1.0 BTS
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn
0.1 Bullmastiff
4.1 Cats

I'm going to talk to them and hopefully we can get this figured out. I can tell you one thing though, they would NEVER consider giving the beardie away.
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Katie F.
Peach State Geckos
Breeding Mealworms
My Email

The husbantry is deffinitely wrong as others have already indicated. Being a year old there is still a change to get some size to this poor guy. However the things that need to be chanced must be changed right away. He needs to take it to a vet for fecal tests and general health tests. That walnut shell stuff can cause impaction, ruptured bowels and other problems. The fact the stuff hasn't been changed for a year, probably loaded with bacteria. Spot cleaning poop isn't enough as it comes out wet and that moisture spreads.

You deffinitely have to emphasize to your friend that the dragon will shortly if these changes are not made and it doens't see a vet. If he doesn't want to make changes, offer him some money for the bearded dragon and give it a caring home. Don't pay more than $50 for it, as it may take $20 for medical care (around $20 for a fecal to start). Unless you want to save it despite costs which would be a good thing. If you friend really cares for his bearded dragon, he will make the changes to ensure his dragon is healthy and thrives.

Romaine does have calcium in it but it's very high in Vitamine A which isn't good for dragons, also its pretty high in oxalic acid, which binds calcium. In other words, the calcium in the romaine lettace is bound up so the body can't even use it. Collard greens are not much more expensive and go a long way and have much much more calcium.
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PHLdyPayne

Okay, I have good news. The dragon is in good hands with a lday that specializes in reviving bearded dragons. He's taking baby food filled with calcium like there's no tommorow. He's going to get a vet visit after he starts eating but I'm pretty sure this lady knows what she's doing. It turns out like alot of people said he had major calcium defficiency and also his basking spot has only been about 77*. The calcium he's been on since he was a baby didn't have any vit D3 either. So this whole time he's never had any D3 at all....I'm so glad she's doing better. When the owner gets the dragon back I'll be watching them like a hawk making sure she's cared for properly. Thanks for the help yall, I think I scared them enough with what I learned and what I thought was wrong for them to take action.
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Katie F.
Peach State Geckos
Breeding Mealworms
My Email