Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,

Luna is gravid again (4th in one year: May (42 eggs), July (42), December(37), now ). I felt I was used to her issues, but we made a special visit to the vet last night for sub-q fluids and a calcium injection. Seeing her right back leg bent in a funny position (had been OK on Sat) prompted the visit.

Here is how it goes:

lays eggs, famished, eats like crazy for a few weeks. I dust and give her silkies when I can (hard to predict for her).

barely seems to get her health back and begins showing signs of egg development again. (e.g. laid Dec 31st, stopped eating 2 (or more) weeks ago so she was not gravid for less than 3 months)

she stops eating entirely and after about a week I begin repta-aid (and NCg at the earliest signs: .100ml 2x/day)

she developed MBD during her December clutch and fractured her back left leg as well as her casque bending.

she also becomes very dehydrated even though she gets regular showers (20 minutes, that's as long as my hot water holds out) every other day (sometimes everyday, it depends on her tolerance of being handled), my humidifier setup and of course her dripper. She will literally sit under her dripper and/or humidifier for an hour at a time with it running all down her face. I also hand water her with a dripper rodent bottle.

Dr. G and I discussed what was going on at length last night to try and figure out what was up. I said since the Ncg is her only source of Ca and the small amount in the R/A she is not getting d3. I looked at the ingredients on the R/A and it does include D3 but who knows how much. So it seems that she is not using the Ca that I am giving her. I live in NH and cannot take her outside for another month (at least). We did have a nice day on Saturday so I took her out for about 20 minutes or so for "real" sun. I watched her walk and she was OK. Both legs suffered some damage in last period, but her right one was not all "bendy" and lax like it was yesterday. I usually use a reptisun 5.0, but I use my 160w MVbulb while she is gravid.

Today, she is hanging upside down from her branches (3 legs grasping) and I got her to go under her dripper where she is now.

OK, I felt you needed the entire "drama" facts so you have a clear understanding. Btw, when she IS eating I use (and always have) Rep-Cal Ca w/D3 and Herptivite, crickets are gutloaded with modified adcham/reptayls recipe and/or cricketfood.com gutload and lost of organic fruits and veggies.

So, my questions are:

1. any ideas on how I can make her Ca more useable? Is there a straight D3 supplement I can use mixed with water. Can I mix the rep-cal with water and if so how much how often?

2. since she is only eating Repta-aid (about 3cc 2x/day if I am lucky) can I keep her basking temps a little lower so she does not dehydrate as much (the dry NH air is the biggest culprit)

3. what would be the shortest day length I can give her so she can sleep more?

4. I am told that not feeding as much will decrease frequency and clutch size but I have almost no time to do that. After she lays I let her eat what she wants to get her strength and nutrition up. Any suggestions there?

5. Would breeding her (sorry, some folks will freak out about this, but I would not keep the eggs, also not sure where I would find a male cham) make any difference - hormonally?

Please, I am getting desperate as I am afraid if she sticks to 4x/year it will shorten her little life You guys know that I am a good mom and do everything right, but feel so helpless and things seem to be worse with each clutch. She will be 2 in mid-May

Btw, her July clutch was a breeze and I am sure that her time in the summer sun had a lot to do with it.

thanks in advance! (let me know if I left anything out)

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Kinky Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Lele, I am really supportive of you and Luna, but have simply not been through this with veileds. This is way over my head. Your vet could possibly consult with cham specialists about ways to deal with this. There are a couple of contributing vets listed on ADCHAM I think, and you could also have him try to talk with Susan Donoghue of Walk About Farms (herpnutrition.com). I know it sounds radical, but one of them might suggest spaying her if they feel she is strong enough for it. Very good luck!!

Hi, believe it or not I actually asked him about that last night (not sure if I would really do it) but he said it would be very risky, which I think we know. Also, b/c she has such a short span of time when she is "healthy" it would be such added stress I doubt she would survive it. Good idea on the adcham vets, thanks!

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Kinky Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

try more veggies. I fed my females only a few insects a week - most of their food was veggies, flowers and fruit. They'd lay 20-30 eggs MAX, and these were fertile eggs.

Thanks, Eric,

This last go 'round (after Dec. clutch) she ate lots of strawberries and some kiwi and a few greens. She is an incredibly finicky eater except for about two weeks after she lays. How do you offer your girls fruits and veggies? Every time I find a way that works, she decides she doesn't like it any more! Do you feed daily??
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Kinky Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

I'm so sorry Lele but it sounds like you're a fantastic cham mother and doing everything correctly...Luna is very fortunate to have you!

The only suggestion I could think of is if you have tried using Pedialyte instead of water? And maybe just because of her own genetics she can't metabolize calcium as efficiently??? I don't know....
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Experience and appreciate nature's creation.

www.zenexotics.com

Thanks...her mom and sister was/is an egg machine and suck the Ca like crazy when gravid (I am in regular contact with her breeder). I do mix pedialyte in and sometimes straight but since she sits under her drippe for so long it is impossible to keep full. I have not made my own but I may try, then I can use it exclusively.

I am just so frustrated and this time quite worried. Today she won't even take her repta-aid. Everyone here knows that I obsess and am a bit of a worrier, but it just seems I can't help her But when she is OK she always seems just fine. I wonder if regular Ca shots (gravid or not) would help. I will have to do some more checking.

thanks
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Kinky Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

It is used primarily in birds to prevent low calcium levels, egg-binding, etc. It contains calcium and vit. d3 in liquid form. Here is the link where you can buy it: http://www.birds2grow.com/prod-calcivet.html

But I haven't heard of it being used in reptiles.....but you can ask your vet. It's worth a shot!
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Experience and appreciate nature's creation.

www.zenexotics.com

called my vet and waiting to here back - thanks!
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Kinky Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Strange - she's producing WAY more eggs than I've ever seen a veiled produce. I've NEVER EVER had a female do more than 2 clutches a year - I wait to mate them, and they don't get gravid in between matings. Could be a way of her body to stimulate her into mating, she's not producing viable eggs, so it keeps trying!

I hope she's ok, sh'es a tough chameleon to survive so many clutches, despite being a runt - you might rethink that whole not mating thing". Runt or not, she's got tough genes! hehe.

yeah, I sort of thought about mating her just to see if it makes all the infertile clutches "go away" but I do not have access to a male cham, do not want to get one and if I did find one to mate her, frankly, I would not keep the eggs. I know a lot of folks might think I am nuts but I do no have the time, space, money or inclination to raise babies and then find GOOD homes for them - I'd end up wanting to keep them all! lol! That's why Sonia "picked" me for her mom b/c she knew that I have absolutely no interest in breeding.

I am emailing as few vets to get opinions. Will certainly let folks know what I find out!
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0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Kinky Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
Chameleon Help & Resource Info

not sure how much it will help but with my chams first clutch i used an eyedropper and filled it with water and reptical mix. i didn't worry too much about quantity just used less than what i put on my crickets as this go straight in the cham.....i know this sounds really tramatizing but if you put your finger over the chams nostrils they will gape to get you off and to breath and you can then pu the eyedropper in the moth realease the nostril wait a bit so they catch their breath and then slowly release the liquid in the dropper. i found the nicer way is to squirt it in with food they are chewing but if they aren't eating it wont happine. It sounds cruel but she wouldn't eat or drink at least in my sight during that week or so.

also ad some electrolize or electrod(3)ize to the water the first boosts electrolites make the cham digest things better and feel better the secon adds calcium and d3. both seem to work at least a little.

I also let my cham stay in the sun all day long during the summer once the night time temp is above 60 and daytime is above 70. when its at those minimums i put her in full sun so she uses the trees inside for shade when it getts too hot ofcourse move the chams into the shade. I have heard that a few months in the sun can help the chams through the winter if they have a good artifical uvb lamp(i use 8.0 lamps)

thanks for the ideas. I have no problem getting her to take water from her dropper bottle (and dripper) I have just been hesitant about the amount - too much/too little - of the repcal.

it seems that her body is just not able to use it properly. I did get a bunch of repta-aid into her finally so she got her nutrition for the day and she crashed really early.

I try to get her into the sun as much as possible in the summer. I would never leave her out all night, though. I live in a rural area and have lots of wildlife: coyote, fox, bear, fishers, owls. I would never sleep unless she was in a fort knox cage - lol! If a great horned owl can tear a skunk in half (yup, witnessed the results one day) it could easily tear screen apart! Also, it cools off a lot at night b/c we are on a river. I may put her outdoor cage in a different area of the property though so she can can get more sun, longer. Lots of trees so she is blocked from sun by about 2pm.

I decided to do the homemade pedialyte (same idea as ones you mentioned) and will fill her entire dripper with it tomorrow. Ho-hum...she is not an easy child ;-/

>>not sure how much it will help but with my chams first clutch i used an eyedropper and filled it with water and reptical mix. i didn't worry too much about quantity just used less than what i put on my crickets as this go straight in the cham.....i know this sounds really tramatizing but if you put your finger over the chams nostrils they will gape to get you off and to breath and you can then pu the eyedropper in the moth realease the nostril wait a bit so they catch their breath and then slowly release the liquid in the dropper. i found the nicer way is to squirt it in with food they are chewing but if they aren't eating it wont happine. It sounds cruel but she wouldn't eat or drink at least in my sight during that week or so.
>>
>>also ad some electrolize or electrod(3)ize to the water the first boosts electrolites make the cham digest things better and feel better the secon adds calcium and d3. both seem to work at least a little.
>>
>>
>>I also let my cham stay in the sun all day long during the summer once the night time temp is above 60 and daytime is above 70. when its at those minimums i put her in full sun so she uses the trees inside for shade when it getts too hot ofcourse move the chams into the shade. I have heard that a few months in the sun can help the chams through the winter if they have a good artifical uvb lamp(i use 8.0 lamps)
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Kinky Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

acually chams are great for outdoors in the us becuase the animals dont know what they are and dont know to look for them.....also you should note that reptiles have do smell and chams dont move at night or at least enough to get noticed. I have never had a problem and i live in the woods in the coutry in Indiana so i have most of the same creatures you do including a nice mischievious pack of raccoons that do nothing to cham cage.. i set my chams cage away from the house a little bit and down by the lake so no animal get the smell of food.

i just havn't had any problems as long as the cage do is shut(lost one "explorer" that way) you might try it as the humid nights dew in the morning simulate natural settings.

hmmm...I'll consider it, but I still doubt I will sleep, you know what a worry wart I am when it comes to her!!

what sort of outdoor cage do you use?
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0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Kinky Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
Chameleon Help & Resource Info

i used to just move the reptarium she was in from inside to outside....it helped on days when it was hot and then the nights would plung low
(you know this northern weather....might be worse for me as i have the great lakes that screw things up)
as it was easy to move but now that she is has doubled in size and so has her cage i'm not sure what i will do. im thinking about making an outdoor cage and just moving her from indoor to out when the weather is good but im worred abou the stress that could cuase...

i have kept anoles outsid ein reptariums for about 5 years and one of my females is about 7 years old so it seems to be very helpful as most captive anoles live to 5.

Lele,

Sorry to hear about Luna's problems. I'm not very experienced in the infertile egg laying thing, but that is a large number of clutches, which makes me think she's being overfed and has been for a while. Here's what came to mind:

I tend to think that the supplemented or extra calcium she's getting is contributing to the problem. I have kept veiled females (virgin) well over a year with a pretty restrictive diet, normal to light supplement schedule, and never had infertile eggs with them, nor did I have any MBD, Calcium, D3 problems or needs. I would typically feed the females a lower amount of food than many think is normal, which amounted to about 3 feedings a week of just a handful of insects (3-4 big crickets, 2 big silkies, 3 supers etc). The extra ReptaAid and calcium you've been giving her is probably making her body want to develop the eggs.

Breeding her may or may not help. The fertile gravid females I had on a small quantity diet never had any problems, and clutch sizes were in the 25-30 egg range, which I thought was low, but better for the mom and the kids. I would "up" their calcium intake as well as more natural sun, but I kept them on a low intake diet. If you're feeding her heavily for more than a month after she laid (to recover from the egg laying process) that is probably sparking the next clutch of eggs while you think you're fattening her up.

For the photoperiod, you could certainly cut her light cycle back, way back if it was just for a while. You could pretty much stop feeding her and let her sleep a week if you wanted to (with the right preparation and a little maintenance).

I'll try to answer if you have any more questions... I didn't cover everything, but pointed out what caught my mind. Good luck!

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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

female collareds for egg laying each year. You feed them really well and increase their calcium , just as with any female lizard your going to breed.

After laying, its common to feed them well and give extra calcium, Like Lele does for Luna.

They can go on to have 4 clutches. If you cut down feeding the clutch size is lower and some will stop at 2 clutches instead of 4.

So it stands to reason, that you may indeed be right. The more she is fed to build her back up, and the extra calcium she receives after laying , is just sending the message to her body make more eggs.

Catch 22
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PHEve / Eve

how long after laying do you continue the Ca? Maybe I am continuing for too long. The extra Ca will actually "trigger" the body for egg development? hmmm....
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Kinky Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Hey Tyler,

thanks a lot! That is interesting and good to know. I always wondered if I could get her to brumate like the beardies. I only give her the r/a once I know she is in developmental stage so she gets nutrition, but now from what some of you are telling me (if I am understanding) that this will increase the clutch size. I guess I thought that the clutch size was "predetermined" and what she ate DURING development would not matter. After this one (which I pray is OK) I will be a lot more restrictive with her diet, temps and lights. She looks like crap and her color is bad even when she is asleep

The vet said he couldn't "feel" any eggs but she is quite distended and looks "full" - I am pretty good at gauging by now! I will try to weigh her again today if I can get her out for a shower. Her normal weight is 86-90g. last clutch she got up to 128! and her weight the other day was about 110.

thanks again,

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Kinky Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Hi Lele,

Sorry to hear that Luna is not doing as well as you hoped.

I agree with Tyler on seeral points. We have found that when female veileds have exceptional appetites, it seems like they have the most eggs. We learned to cut back the food offered when they were reaching maturity and after they lay (after the first week or two).

It seems the extra food sets-up ideal conditions for the body to say "now is a good time to produce eggs". In the wild, food is often scarce and they pace themselves - but in captivity the chameleons have these caregivers that always want to feed them.

We increase the calcium intake drastically right before laying rather than during the entire time they are not gravid. Some people think that too much calcium lends to calcified eggs. Since we are still learning - we cannot offer an expert opinion.

Here is a hint for pedialite - either purchase the "freezer pops" or pour Pedialite into ice cube trays and freeze. You can then defrost the amount you need without having to worry about the expiration date. Just keep the cubes in a freezer zip lock and use as needed.

Keeping Luna hydrated is key... otherwise her organs can start to fail. I would try the pedialite in her dripper....

Has your vet considered an x-ray?? We have had several of our chams x-rayed to see if they were gravid, so we could start calcium therapy. Here is an example:

Hi Morgana,

thanks for your input. I had her x-rayed during her first clutch last year b/c she began showing signs in Dec and laid in May (you may recall that debacle!)I thought about it the other day, but didn't follow thru. I suppose feeding is key, but I even noticed this last time she began to eat less than usual right from the beginning. My other huge concern is her leg - it is a mess! it is almost as though the upper and lower leg are not attached and she has no grip with that leg at all. Frankly, I am so confused by everything at this point my head is spinning. And on top of it just got 1000 crix for my new beardie delivered and am lucky if 150 are alive! I am not having a good day at all and am crunched under work and other obligations...ok, just need to vent a little ;-/

I guess I do not even know what to do at this point. I only gave her water (well, homemade pedialyte) and no repta-aid b/c now I am afraid that this will contribute to more eggs! btw, I weighed her today and she is up 6 or 7g from Sunday...

p.s. thanks for the freezing tip
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0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Kinky Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
Chameleon Help & Resource Info