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My new Albino Nelsons.
One has a more yellow tinge to it, the other isa nice pretty clean white.
Why is that?

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Crazy ZooLady

Some Nelson's get very yellow over time.
It looks like one of yours has a head start.
Also, there is some banding variability.
Sometimes the triads are yellow, other times they are white.
I suspect this has to do with the underlying colors
that cannot been seen in normal morphs of this snake.

Tim

Third Eye

note that the greatest deposition of yellow in the snake in tim's beautiful picture is in the areas that would be black on a normal or wild type. i've always found that an interesting phenomenon--same thing happens with some hondurans. I've included a pic of one. It's a change that happens over time, increases with age, it's an example of what's called ontogenetic or ontogenic change (webster's both adjectives given, in that order) meaning biological change over the lifetime of the animal.
terry

You bring up a good point, Terry.

I'm reminded of the "color switching" whenever I do reptile displays around town.
It seems that many people have that

"Red touches yellow, kill a fellow,
Red touches black, friend of Jack"

poem ingrained in their mind and some people refuse to pet these
"reverse banded" snakes for fear that they are venomnous!

Tim

Hi Tim,

Interesting point, one i hadn't thought of. I spent last weekend at the Tampa show and with the native scarlet kings here, and me displaying two kinds of tricolors (pyros and hondos) i made that explanation to people numerous times. Never occurred to me the "high yellow" hondos & nelsoni sorta contradict the rule.

BTW, as a kid i thought catching a scarlet king would be "da bomb" (well, ok, i was a kid about a hundred years before that expression caught on, but hey, maybe i was way ahead of my time). But i digress. anyway, moving to florida the scarlet king was high on my list of things i'd like to run across. 35 years later, i still haven't found anything but a couple DORs. So I'm at the tampa show, talking to a family, and the mom volunteers about her roughly 10-year-old daughter, "yeah, she's caught two of them so far. One in the yard, and one came into our screened-in pool area."

Not that i'm envious, or anything. But what a little brat.

peace,
terry

"the scarlet king was high on my list of things i'd like to run across. 35 years later, i still haven't found anything but a couple DORs."

I'd like to clarify they were not DOR because I had "run across" them. I realized after posting that i'd chosen my words carelessly.

I WAS in a car that turned an Arizona splendida into road kill many years ago, however. I met a friend there (on a pyro quest that's been about as successful as my scarlet king searches) and he'd brought along another friend, who shall remain nameless but who we let drive (well, it WAS his car!) on night time roadhunting trips.

Picture Dukes of Hazard. Picture the car chase scene in the French Connection, or Steve McQueen in Bullitt. Picture driving down a dark Arizona Road at 55 to 60 mph, someone yells snake, and the brakes lock and the car goes into wide sliding semi-sideways panic stops.

"This isn't the way we road hunt in Florida," I meekly volunteered. But it did no good til the splendida fell prey to our version of Evil Knievel. That slowed him down. But only a bit.

peace
terry

Terry they are not htat hard to find. Find a road that is along a canal, hopefully going east/west, and drive it in the early spring. If there are snakes found with any frequency than there are usually SKs on the road as well. I forgot palmettos are a plus but the are everywhere. The Sks come on the roads more or less about a hour after the main movement of snakes. The inital crossing usually last about a half hour and than nothing moves for about a half hour then the Sks will cross. The problem is they don't cross for most of the year. The window is around March to May. For where you are April to May is prime. The fun thing about SKs is I usually drive for the extra half hour or more when nothing is crossing and then give up. I drive a road that is a dead end so I take the last run out and then call it a night. Since nothing has moved for awhile I usually speed up to about 45mph and head out. That is when I find them, on my last run, at 45mph and I usually almost kill myself in the crazy slide as I lock up my brakes and slide down the dirt for a extra 60 ft and then sprint down the road to catch the snake before it gets off the road. OOOOOOHHHHHH what a rush. So drive later on a good road and don't kill yourself.
Later Jason
P.s. Have you found any Pyros yet or is that the other thorn in your side??

>>P.s. Have you found any Pyros yet or is that the other thorn in your side??

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the tips, generally waht i thought, i just have to make the time to get out. Lindsay, you reading this?!

I've got a trip to the panhandle in two weeks that might change my luck, too.

Yeah, the pyros are the other thorn. Randy Limburgh went with us last time and found one within a couple hours, just to prove they really are there! Those AZ trips are always successful, though...sitting on the motel deck at portal, with hummingbirds flying around and the mountains behind you and the desert in front of you, no one has a right to complain. Plus i've seen a bobcat, stunning white foxes, and bob montoya and i caught a green rat one trip. So it's not a thorn, exactly, just a future rush, one i'm sure will come some day.

peace
terry

Finding a Green Rat is way more impressive than a SK. That is the only target I did not find in AZ. when I went last year. I had a amazing trip though and not the norm I am sure. This year I am going to Texas but next year I might go back to AZ. If I do I may be able to show you some Pyros if you are there at the same time. LOL After one trip I am a expert you know.LOL I am looking for anyone to have found a pyro on the Grahm Mnts. if you know of anybody let me know. The scarlet kings are pretty easy if you know where to look. And I don't mean pealing bark either. It is just timing. You have to look at the right time of the year.
Good Luck
Jason

>>>>P.s. Have you found any Pyros yet or is that the other thorn in your side??
>>
>>Hi Jason,
>>
>>Thanks for the tips, generally waht i thought, i just have to make the time to get out. Lindsay, you reading this?!
>>
>>I've got a trip to the panhandle in two weeks that might change my luck, too.
>>
>>Yeah, the pyros are the other thorn. Randy Limburgh went with us last time and found one within a couple hours, just to prove they really are there! Those AZ trips are always successful, though...sitting on the motel deck at portal, with hummingbirds flying around and the mountains behind you and the desert in front of you, no one has a right to complain. Plus i've seen a bobcat, stunning white foxes, and bob montoya and i caught a green rat one trip. So it's not a thorn, exactly, just a future rush, one i'm sure will come some day.
>>
>>peace
>>terry

Hey Terry,

Couldn't resist:

Something about a watched pot never boils and if you watch the toaster it takes three times as long to finish your toast.

Have you tried going out and purposely NOT looking for them? They would probably be out with neon signs and an arrow pointing down "LOOK HERE TERRY".

Now that my son is 11, it's time to start going on wilderness treks and see what we can turn up here in VA. I'm looking forward to photographing rattlers in the mountains and hopefully some copperheads as well. Plus whatever else we can scare up. Seems I never have the camera when it's time to rescue a snake from the road, lol.

Best of luck with the search for the scarlets. To quote the X-Files "The Truth is Out There"................
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"Colubrid-aphilia", adj; An inordinate love of Colubrids.

Here's another trick: Bring someone with you who knows nothing of finding the species you are looking for. They'll find one.

Mark

>>Hey Terry,
>>
>>Couldn't resist:
>>
>>Something about a watched pot never boils and if you watch the toaster it takes three times as long to finish your toast.
>>
>>Have you tried going out and purposely NOT looking for them? They would probably be out with neon signs and an arrow pointing down "LOOK HERE TERRY".
>>
>>Now that my son is 11, it's time to start going on wilderness treks and see what we can turn up here in VA. I'm looking forward to photographing rattlers in the mountains and hopefully some copperheads as well. Plus whatever else we can scare up. Seems I never have the camera when it's time to rescue a snake from the road, lol.
>>
>>Best of luck with the search for the scarlets. To quote the X-Files "The Truth is Out There"................
>>-----
>>"Colubrid-aphilia", adj; An inordinate love of Colubrids.
-----
Mark G

You are BOTH right!

A: I have gone out many times looking for something, and not found it. But then found something else instead taht I had looked for dozens of times, and never found. Then went out looking for the thing I just found, and not find it but somthing else I have been looking for. It really works! LOL

And B: I also went with someone once in search of a Utah Mountain Kingsnake. I guess he had looked for it many times before with no luck. I myself, had never looked for kings before, so I had no clue what to look for. He was al ready to hike off when I pointed down into this little area and said, wait, lets look here! It was just screaming SNAKE to me! It as perfect in my eyes. So we went down, and about 10-15 minutes later he was screaming his head off cause he found one! So bringing someone along who knows nothing about what your looking for sometimes can REALLY help!
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Crazy ZooLady

>>Here's another trick: Bring someone with you who knows nothing of finding the species you are looking for. They'll find one.
>>
>>Mark
>>

I dunno, Mark. Lindsay says that's why he takes me along!
terry

Remember the line from the movie, "There's no CRYING in baseball!" I figured I could take a little poetric license here (OOH! a DOUBLE double entendre!) I"ve gotta stop drinking so much Dew.

>>Have you tried going out and purposely NOT looking for them? They would probably be out with neon signs and an arrow pointing down "LOOK HERE TERRY".

Anyway, I think you're right. I had a college professor who wrote on of the few poems i remember. It went something like this, and has proven prophetic:

"I run, chasing the falling leaves,
and can catch none.
Exhausted, i fall to the ground,
and they tumble to my lap."

That works, don't you think?

terry

Sorry Terry! maybe my "Son" who is "7" can show you a few if you make it down to North Port.

>>Sorry Terry! maybe my "Son" who is "7" can show you a few if you make it down to North Port.

===============
yeah, yeah, yeah, beat me when i'm down.

(but he probably could. it was good to see you in tampa. tell him hi.)

terry

i strongly believe there are two diffrent lines of Albino Nelsoni, i've seen adults with pure white bands and other adults with lemon yellow bands. so who knows?!

~ZF

I have a 2 year old pair of albino nelsons that I bought from Rick and Becky trenney that are of different parentage ans show the same difference in colors as those above.
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I fly upon wings made from nylon and string.

Finally someone with some input, these people on this forum sometimes make you feel crazy when they ignore your observations... I hope to find a "white band" albino Nelsoni to further prove my point

~ZF

Female albino nelsoni, white bands

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I fly upon wings made from nylon and string.

Yellow band male

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I fly upon wings made from nylon and string.

~ZF

Very Nice snake Ted... do you have a male to pair her up with from the same line? I'm looking for a nice "white band" albino female... I have one of those "yellow band" albino females, but she's a problematic feeder, are you going to breed this snake this year? let me know if/when you have hatchlings.

I think the yellow line is from the more aberrant Nelsoni, and the white line is seen more in the clean banded Nelsoni. also I noticed that (in the yellow albinos from het. parents)parents are dark red almost burgundy looking, and the white banded seems to spring from bright red "normals"

My Nelsoni Trio... believe it or not they are all `03 hatched... my male is a beast... always hungry.

keep me posted on those albinos, if you don't have a male... I'd be willing to put my male out on breeder's loan... he wasn't brumated this yr but if you need him he'll be next yr. so let me know...

~ZF

Zenny
I only have the two pictured. I don't think the female is big enough to breed this year, unless the female puts on a little more size by midsummer. Even if she were large enough now, I wouldn't be able to pair her up now as I will be taking a long vacation about the time the eggs would be hatching out.
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I fly upon wings made from nylon and string.

Thanx... hopefully i'll stumble across one at the next expo i go 2.

I am not that up on the nelsons but I noticed you posted a few pics in different forums. All the pics are of "your new snakes". So my question is how long have you had the nelsons?? If only for a day or two could the more yellow one be in shed?? Again I am not trying to flame you but am just curious. Zenny mentioned 2 different lines of nelsons and I respect his knowledge cuz I see him post all the time and he is usually right on. I have a pair that I got screwed on that where supposed to be Hondos (thats another story) and that is the limit of my experence with this sub of snakes. So I am interested in the different line theory but would like more info before I go believe in different lines. As the sub is poorly defined from the sinaloans and there is very few accurate collection record if any the true ID of a Nelson is up for debate in so peoples minds. Also with people crossing snake all the time you can have other subs in the background that you don't know about. Finally the variation of many of the triangulum subs is vast in the wild and in captivity which is what makes them so fun to breed. Hopefully some of the Nelson breeders will have some answers
Thanks Jason

Hi, yep, I have MANY NEW snakeys. I am very happy bout them. I have some brooks kings inshed and my black rat snakes are in shed, but not the nelsons. I will get a few more pics of them separately later and post them.
I've never had milksnakes, rat snakes, or san boas before, so these are a first for me. I am used to venomoids, big boas and pythons, and kingsnakes. And never done the weird morphs before either. They are so pretty.
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Crazy ZooLady

>>My new Albino Nelsons.
>>One has a more yellow tinge to it, the other isa nice pretty clean white.
>>Why is that?
>>Crazy ZooLady

I favor the theory that there's just that variability in nelsoni. It's reasonable to think it might be "fixed" by linebreeding.

As noted in other posts, the "yellow" and "white" phases exist in other triangulum subspecies too, including hondurensis. There are also two pictures of scarlet kings on the kingsnake forum that illustrate that variability, though that's not the reason the pix were posted. you can see those pix in a single post at:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=770002,770002

peace
terry