Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am in love with reptiles... I love all my pets and give them the best care possible, I spend many hours researching their care every night...
Ok so now I have a little credibility, I'm not making this up to save a few bucks... I have seen my fair share of MBD, I often go to pet stores to educate the staff and offer to care for any sick reptiles, and there are almost always a few with varying degrees of MBD. The cages were often to small, not warm enough and did not have UVB lighting, I always assumed that the main problem was the lack of UVB. and not the other inproper husbandry practices... However the other night while researching ackies and Ionides at Pro Exotics.com I read a part of their caresheet that stated they do not use UVB for their monitors or Uros www.proexotics.com/FAQ2.html#41 , they dont see any harm in using it, but dont see any real need for it either(they did use it but saw no difference..), and this made my jaw drop.. i really respect these guys, they are definatly among the leading experts in their field(monitor breeding) and take excellent care of all their animals.. At first I thought it was nonsense, but over the next day or so I thought about the MBD cases I have seen.. Mostly all in pet stores where all aspects of the husbandry were way off... Who can say the MBD is caused by lack of UVB, I think it is more likely that the baby beardy I rescued couldnt digest its food at room temperature and therefore started to get MBD and the Green Iguana I saw at a local pet store was only fed Iceberg lettuce and that as we all know is useless and dangerous... One thing that really helped put doubt in my mind is my girlfriends 9 year old beautiful potty trained nice as can be iguana... When he was little he had no uvb and never went outside till he was at least 2 years old and he still only gets uvb when he goes outside... however all other aspects of his care were excellent, he ate only collard/mustard greens and other proper foods and had a nice big cage with a 95 degree basking area (beardies need 105-110). I have never had a dinural animal without UVB provided so this is the closest I can come to personal expirience of raising an animal successfully without UVB. So my current conclusion is that if we meet our animals needs for housing, diet(with proper supplements, vit d3 and calcium most important..) and basking, they can be healthy without the added expense of uvb lighting. Many people would counter this by saying the animal may be alive, but its not thriving... and I want my animals to thrive so I'm getting UVB. Well this is where my research helps me out again, Do animals that dont have their requirements met breed succesfully? No. at proexotics they have many dinural reptiles, not only alive but thriving and breeding sucessfully and living long full lives, without any uvb. I am no expert and Im not telling everyone to trash their reptisuns, but give it some thought and if you have any expirience or ideas please post them cause I cant figure this all out on my own... thanks,
Kyle
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Kyle Costlow
1.0 Corn Snake - Theodore
0.1 Ball Python - Elie
1.0.1 Beardie - Spike, Rescue
1.1 Sugar Glider - Hunter and Sachi

I do breed several reptiles since tha mid seventees. In those early days we had no UVB bulbs at all, later I tried various brands and raised groups of babies with and without UVB.
The outcome was that I had to give dietary D3 anyhow, even to the UVB exposed animals.
Today I do not use any UVB bulb. Some of my animals get some natural sunlight in summer, but most do not.
I do carefully supplement UVB and I have healthy prolific lizards ranging from anoles over basilisks, chameleons , diverse geckos, lacertids till Uromastyx.
IMHO the UVB dicussion is exaggerated and makes people forget that they can fully supplement for UVB but NOT for light intensity.
I do my best to provide basking spotts for my diurnal animals which reach the intensity oof the sun. That means I use metal halides with apt reflektros to reach maximums in the 100 000 lux range.
I am convinced that that is much more important than relying on spurious UVB sources.
Thats my 2 cts

Ingo

This is a very interesting question as well as some curious statements.

There doesnt' seem to be a whole lot of really "scientific" studies on this that I have seen. There are alot of "experienced" opinions though.

Here is what my experience has led me to belive:

Different species need different levels of UVB for different reasons.

For example: Iguanas and Veiled chameleons need more and seem to be prone to MBD without it. This is due to the fact that their natural diets do not contain a lot of D3. We follow this for all our insectivores and herbivores (uro's, dragons, chameleons, iguanas, tortoises, xenogamas just to name a few)and use plenty of UVB for them.
We have seen a big difference between high activity levels and appetite with UVB as opposed to much lower activity and appetite levels without it in the above species.

Nocturnal specimens like Leopard Geckos do not get UVB at all as they sleep all day and would not get any as it were.

Monitors and snakes do not seem to be prone to MBD. They consume whole live prey (rodents) and get their calcium and D3 from their prey items.

We do dust all of our insectivores food items and supplement our herbivores as well.
Scales

http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/Idiosyncrasies.htm - study which is a study of iguanas raised with various differences in Dietry and UVB given D3. I wish they would have posted the temps though...
Some thoughts on basking areas and supplementation-
I have had a few discussions with robyn at proexotics, and he uses whole foods(mice) for monitors and regular (daily) supplements(dusting cricekts/greens with calcium D3 and a multivitamin) for the reptiles that do not eat whole foods. They have done so with great success. My main point is that many people over emphasize the importance of UVB, and do not focus enough on providing proper temperature gradients and living conditions. I think that if having UVB gives you peace of mind then go for it, but make sure that all the other aspects of husbandry are met as well.. One thing that I believe is a common problem is insufficient basking areas, many care sheets recomend a 95 degree area for iguanas and a 105-110 for bearded dragons, or 120 for Uromastyx and monitors, but consider their natural habitat, the air temp is tropical 75-90 degrees and surfaces in direct sunlight where these animals would bask will reach much higher temps than the actaul air temp. If you have a temp gun(they are awesome!!!!) try scaning different surfaces on a warm day and you'll see what I mean. this is a quote from one of my emails with proexotics;
"I have temped stuff out with a 75F air temp, and found surfaces temps well
over 120F. these are the temps they use in the wild, not 95, not 105, but
nice high, thick temps. try it for yourself. and see what happens when air
temps are 95F, like in the middle of summer.

I would offer any lizard a wide temp gradient of 80-140F or more, and all of
the lizards you mentioned would not only take advantage of it, but thrive."

on a side note-
25$ tempguns at www.tempgun.com most reliable way to get quick readings!

Kyle

Obviously nocturnal species- don't need it.

It seems apparent that whole bodied mammilian prey eaters don't need it.

Who needs it? Iguanas are obvious candidates and are probably the most studied of all reptiles.

Back to your initial post however; I think that you are over using the term MBD. First of all, a month or so without UVB in species that need it will not cause obvious signs of MBD. As mentioned, other aspects of husbandry will cause more immediate concerns.

Also of important note, is that while vitamin D3 can be supplemented, this then takes it away from the lizard to control it's calcium intake. Let me start from the beginning and assume that we are talking about MBD caused by nutritional secondary hypoparathyroidism. An iguana uses UVB to produce Vit D3 which then in turn regulates Ca absorption from the gut. If vitamin D3 is supplemented orally with the Calcium than absorption is based on the amount of Vit D present and not what the iguana needs. Thus overdosing Calcium can become a real problem. I recommend supplementing calcium but not Vitamin D3, and using sunlight or artificial UVB for the species that are assumed to need it. Because studies are lacking in the majority of species, an assumption is made for the need of UVB based on diet and lifestyle as mentioned above.

Finally, to comment about the living vs thriving issue. In the 60's and 70's keeping an animal alive for the assumed lifespan was considered thriving in captivity. Now if an animal breeds it is considered thriving. I must disagree with this generality. Certainly some species must indeed be thriving to breed, however, and I'm sure you will agree, some species will breed without any que's or questions from the owner. I think as our definition of thriving advances, so should our expectations of care.
I think that the general move to create more naturalistic enclosures by whatever means, benefits the animals in more ways than we can concieve or measure. It is in this light that we must remember that these are captives and there is no such thing as perfect husbandry (that being the exact mimic of the wild ecosystem). I have utmost respect for proexotics but everyone has their schedule and large naturalistic enclosures just doesn't suite a large scale breeding operation.

In the end I think we are all educated, well respected keepers of our kin and what we know about herps is all based on opinions and experiences. The purpose of these discussions is not to necessarily define right and wrong, but to share different points of view and reflect how it may benefit our animals.

I agree--I personally do not consider an animal to be thriving in captivity unless it EXCEEDS the expected wild lifespan for the species. Wild animals are subject to a great deal more stress, hardship, parasites, disease, etc--they invariably have lifespans shorter than what they are capable of living. If we are providing all that an animal needs, then then increase in medical care and reduced environmental stress we can provide in captivity should result in a LONGER lifespan. Quite often, it's twice as long as that of a wild animal, or even longer.
We've seen it time and again with mammals and birds--herps should not be any different. For some species of reptiles, we have been able to meet this nominal goal--others, we're still working on.

I keep accanthurus MFF trios in three identical set-ups. The only difference was that one case did not have full spectrum lighting. Two years passed and the male in that particular case started showing signs of MBD after the winter cooling. A couple of calcium pils inserted into the mouth of a pinkie mouse soon cured him but the three animals in the case without full spectrum all have missing toes unlike the animals in the other cases.

I will leave you to make your own conclusions but I will always use full spectrum from now on.

If we have learned nothing else from the numerous blunders humans have made in captive animal husbandry, we should have learned this basic premise: animals evolved (or were created - your choice) to have specific needs met by their environment. If we try to alter that environment, we should expect results to change - sometimes obviously, sometimes very subtly.

Anecdotal experience, along with detailed observations by various contributors to the knowledge pool (zookeepers, dedicated hobbyists, scientific study, etc) appears to support that many species will show obvious signs of ill health without the necessary environmental lighting parameters being met - including UVA and UVB.

Can we get away without it in some cases? Yes - but that is not taking into account possible/probable subtle issues within the body of the animal.

I'd much rather err on the side of Mother Nature than think I'm wise enough to fool her.

Just my opinion - YMMV

(and yes, I've bred reptiles, as well as doing rescue)
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Bonnie Keller
VA Reptile Rescue
www.vareptilerescue.org