Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So, I bought a freshly imported Asian red-tail rat from Strictly Reptiles about 2 weeks ago. The snake has minimal scale trauma, no visible parasites under the skin and had dehydrated stool samples during its first week with me. It also has an upper respiratory infection to the point of bubbles visible in the mouth. I have placed the snake in a 4'L by 3'H by 3"W lucite/metal cage. The cage has cypress mulch for bedding, a large water bowl, 2 "sanitized" perching vines/branches and a flourescent strip on during the day. I have a 100 watt ceramic heater on 24 hrs. to jack the temp. up and maybe beat the upper respiratory with exra heat. My room temps. range from 70 at night to about 85 during the day. I frequently spray the cage for added humidity. The cage is placed on top of my already 5' high carpet python cage. So, the cage is high up and at an arboreal level for the snake's comfort. I have tried feeding my snake a live rat during the day and at night with no success.

Here is my question to all of you?: Does anyone no when it is too long for the snake to go w/o food being a wild-caught? Should I Panacur and Flagyll? Should I use Batryll now or wait a bit longer and see? I think if its upper respiratory gets treated first, the snake will eat for me.............Anyone have any tips, thoughts or insight? Thanks for your help! Have a good one!

- Justin

Since snakes only have one working lung, any type of respiratory infection is potentially deadly. You may be looking at a vet visit in the immediate future if you wish to keep your snake. This really underscores one of the huge pitfalls of wild-caught snakes, especially imported ones. Nearly all of them need to be treated for all kinds of crap, and the mortality rate on these imports is extremely high. One of the medicines you mentioned may or may not help....I will leave that to someone else to suggest. But I would suggest that if you don't do something very soon, you will have a dead snake on your hands. It's not about the snake eating or not eating right now. The animal is sick. Probably full of parasites. And the respiratory infection is probably about to kill him. A vet, if you can afford it, is the answer. I would also suggest that people who can't afford the vet visit should probably never buy wild-caught imported snakes. Actually, I personally don't think they should be purchased by most people anyway. But...As long as you have him...Good luck and I hope a good herp vet can cure him. Duffy

Be really, REALLY careful that none of the materials, food or equipment you are using causes any cross-contamination of your other snake cage(s). Now THAT would be a big problem.

I'm sorry but you picked the wrong animal to work with, especially as a fresh import. These snakes are very delicate and don't ( as you can tell ) take the importation process very well. Do some reasearch on these animals, and if you want to still pursue them pick out a importer with healthy animals. I'm not saying Strictly isn't reputable ( I've had many animals from them, both first and second hand ), but sometimes the shipments are Chicken #%^@%& and all you can do is salvage what you can. In the meantime take that animal to the vet asap ( Don't worry about food, that is the last thing it needs ), or give it back to Strictly for Cobra food. It may sound harsh, but the chance that animal has are slim to none. Just my opinion though

Thank you to everyone that replied to my post and their concerns. I would like to add, and to inform everyone's concerns, that I currently have about 20+ pets: herps, bugs, etc... I knew what I was getting myself into. I'm aware that it is a fresh import. This is the first fresh import herp I have ever purchased. I usually go straight to a reputable breeder or distributor and examine the animal myself before I buy. The only reason why I chose to buy in this fashion was that my company made a bulk order with Strictly and I wanted to see if I "lucked" out and could work with a fresh import of said species. I just wanted to see if anyone could offer any tips from experience. Trust me, it's nerve-racking working with hard species and an import at that. I'm going to stick with less-complicated animals in the future. Again, thank you for your replies and concerns. I'll see what happens and I'll let you guys know if anything works. We have 2 vets on staff at our facility and I have access to medicine through them. We'll see how the snake fares

- Justin

As you can see from my signature I have a lot of Gonyosoma. I've worked with a lot of imports over the years and hope I'm getting them figured out.

Don't hesitate to start this specimen on a baytril regimen. As you probably know the injectable form can and probably should be given orally. I give it this way to many of my imports.

I always give Panacur and Flagyl. I have the liquid form of Flagyl from Mexico. It seems more effective.

I like the sound of your cage, but I recommend something smaller, and more secure feeling during the inital acclimation phase. They just seem to settle down better this way.

I quarantine mine in semi-opaque plastic boxes measuring 31"x17"x12", LxWxH.

Most of my specimens first eat live rat pups left in the cage overnight. Make sure the rats are young enough they can't injure the snake.

I have had specimens go almost two months before eating. Many of them lived for over a year in captivity so I don't think that initial fast was deleterious.

Please feel free to e-mail me through Kingsnake's messenger service if you have any further questions.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Clearly from what you report your odds are improving as you learn. But what percentage of your imports have died? You state that many of those which have fasted for two months have survived a year or more in captivity. Am I to assume, then, that most of those have eventually expired? I have some pretty strong personal thoughts and feelings surrounding this entire issue, but I would like to feel that I have enough information on the topic to be constantly open to new ideas and such. So...How many imports have you acquired (give or take) and how many have died? Thanks. Duffy

Hi Duffy,

I used to keep records on this stuff but lost them all in a flood. More on that later.

But up until that point I was able to keep 50% to 60% of imported adults alive for a year or more. I'd say about 12 out of 20 up until the time of the flood.

Now I'll add that some of those imports were in such bad shape that the importer either gave them (indirectly) to me for free or sold me a group at a heavy discount.

I am including those specimens in that percentage. If I threw them out my sucess would be better, obviously, as all but one of those died within weeks.

Unfortunately I can't provide useful records from that point on.

Many of my specimens were submerged underwater for an hour or more during the flood and died within two months. I lost another two females to ovoposition difficulties.

Then I recently moved to a new area and lost a lot of snakes, mostly recent imports. To make a long story short, it turned out that the well-water to my new house is treated with chloramine, despite my initial findings that it was not.

Chloramines are thought to be hightly toxic to the racer type colubrids. It hammered me pretty good.

We also need to consider that Gonyosoma seem to be short lived snakes. Even captive born specimens rarely live to ten years. I have received some very large imports, presumably full grown, that have also lived for a long time. But some of those have died as well, which maybe should not be included in my numbers since they may have been geriatric.

So if you factor in all the crazy mortality I've had due to floods, ovoposition issues, toxic water treatment compounds, and imports in such bad shape they were free, I've probably done pretty darn good.

In a nutshell, I believe that only my pre-flood mortality data is of any use.

Pre-flood, I was able to keep over 50% of my imports alive. Again, if I threw out the freebies that number would be better.

And I have lost a number of those established imports since, but given some of the bad luck I've had, I really have no choice but to ignore those numbers.

Interested in hearing your ideas.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Obviously, newbies attempting to dabble in some of these import species will probably experience a huge mortality rate. Was that the case for you "back when"? Do you think that people who you know personally who are into the same types of animals do about the same as you do? Are many losing more than half of their imports?

Finally, how many unscrupulous importers are there out there, compared to ones who are willing to only deal in "well-treated" animals, even though they can turn a quick buck trying to sell crates of snakes which may have been ill-cared-for?

It all really winds up bringing me to some more philosophical questions like: Is it worth it? The cost, I mean, in terms of snakes "killed" by lazy, clumsy importers who only care about turning a quick buck. Are we inadvertantly supporting an industry which flaunts the very ethics which most of us hold dear in terms of how herps, both wild and captive, should be treated?

I don't have the answers...But I sure have lots of questions, don't I????? Interested in YOUR thoughts. Duffy

Was that the case for you "back when"?

Well, back then my mortality was 100% based on a sample size of one.

By the time I got into Gonyosoma again a few years back I was a very experienced snake keeper. I had also honed my skills on species more difficult than Gonyosoma - some tree vipers for example.

So I was pretty good at establishing imports at that time.

Do you think that people who you know personally who are into the same types of animals do about the same as you do? Are many losing more than half of their imports?

50% seems to be a common number. I do slightly better, which I believe is completely due to the relationship a good friend of mine has with an importer of this species. Give me the same specimens as my other friends and I'd do no better.

Finally, how many unscrupulous importers are there out there, compared to ones who are willing to only deal in "well-treated" animals, even though they can turn a quick buck trying to sell crates of snakes which may have been ill-cared-for?

The one Gonyosoma I killed back in the early 90's didn't have a chance. They never should have sold it to me. I do wonder how common this is. Again, I'm (now) very fortunate in this regard.

It all really winds up bringing me to some more philosophical questions like: Is it worth it?

I'm am trying to promise myself a certain time frame for figuring Gonyosoma out, and then giving up if that does not happen. I don't know what that time frame is right now. Now that we own a home and I have a designated snake room I'd like to set that clock to zero, especially given the luck I've had the last year.

What I'll work with when I give up is another question altogether.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

.....Like I said, I have some pretty strong thoughts and opinions on this topic, but the more "informed" those opinions can be the better. I have grave concerns regarding the "import" business on the whole, and wonder what kinds of effects it may be having on entire populations of wild snakes. Not to mention the individual animals who expire at the hands of some of the less savory dealers. And 50% plus or minus for the experienced herper!!! Yikes!!!

On the other hand...I fully understand that ALL of the snake species commonly bred in captivity today had to start from wild stock. And success in an endeavor like yours has the potential to take the pressure off the import trade in the long run. Not a real "black and white" issue by a long shot. But then...What is? Duffy

Those issues are very real and not lost on me. I don't really want to continue to support importation unless I can work towards reducing our reliance on it.

Of course that's not the only thing that motivates me. I just really like Gonyosoma - I'm selfish.

For some food for thought, we also have to consider what the keeping and breeing of herps does to native population. Think of all the energy and resources that go into maintaining herps in captivity.

I once read how many millions of acres of cropland it takes just to feed the mice that we feed our snakes. It was a huge number.

So if we really cared about snakes the logical thing to do would be to NOT keep them. Instead work towards getting that cropland converted back into natural habitat so the wild snakes would be better off.

No matter how you slice it we are involved in a selfish and destructive hobby. And I accept that what I'm doing is perhaps as bad as it gets.

I do hope to work towards reproducing Gonyosoma in captivity and I hope that reduces the number of imports, but it still won't be a moral or ethical endeavor by any means.

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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)