Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Say just for the sake of discussion that I had a litter of BRBs and two of these babies turned dark ruby red with out markings when they turned 2 years old. Now say I hang onto them and breed them and want to sell the babies say I put a price on these babies of 4 thousand dollars and sort of implied that they would be red like their parent when grown(thus the big price tag).

Now say you bought one for that price and it's now 4 years old and looks like every other BRB around no ruby red. What would you do and expect from me the breeder.

No I don't have any Ruby red ones wish I did though. The reason I ask is that I have been having a discussion on another board about breeders standing behind their high end animals and would like to know everyone here's thought on this.
Randy
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
I just want the full glass I paid for !

If the breeder "guarenteed" that they would be that color and pattern, then I would be highly upset and commit murder...lol j/k...but I would expect my money back.

Now if he said that there is only a possibility that they would turn out that way, then that's just the risk I would have to take and would just have to except whatever turn out I got.

I would suspect that snakes would follow the same type of "rules" as other animals such as dogs and horses. Unless a written contract or guarentee stated that such and such purchased animal would be the color stated on the agreement within a certain period of time I would not expect (or think I'm evenly remotely entitle to) any compensation if the animal did not become what I expected it to be. There is, in my opinion, NO absolute way of determining what an offspring of whatever parents it's from color or pattern, temperment, size, etc. will be at maturity. I think that the the grandparents (and their siblings)as well as the parents (and their siblings) have equal factors in the determination of ANY future offspring. I also think that an "ugly ducking" basically has the same potential for producing a striking offspring as it's striking sibling. It basically boils down to the the actual wording of the agreement. What I would consider Ruby Red may be entirely or slightly different than what you think it means. Without a contract, I think the best possible compensation would be actual price paid (including shipping) and reimbursement for average feeding and maintenance cost. Most likely, you'd just be offered a "greatly reduced" replacemnt. If there is no contract, I think you just eat it.

>>Say just for the sake of discussion that I had a litter of BRBs and two of these babies turned dark ruby red with out markings when they turned 2 years old. Now say I hang onto them and breed them and want to sell the babies say I put a price on these babies of 4 thousand dollars and sort of implied that they would be red like their parent when grown(thus the big price tag).
>>
>>Now say you bought one for that price and it's now 4 years old and looks like every other BRB around no ruby red. What would you do and expect from me the breeder.
>>
>>No I don't have any Ruby red ones wish I did though. The reason I ask is that I have been having a discussion on another board about breeders standing behind their high end animals and would like to know everyone here's thought on this.
>>Randy
>>-----
>>I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
>>I just want the full glass I paid for !

Thanks guys let me add there is no written guarantee just sort of implied. as another question other then in ball morphs does anyone offer a written guarantee? Sunshine when I mentioned Horses on the other forum they went off lol Thanks for the replies and hope there will be more.
Randy
>>I would suspect that snakes would follow the same type of "rules" as other animals such as dogs and horses. Unless a written contract or guarentee stated that such and such purchased animal would be the color stated on the agreement within a certain period of time I would not expect (or think I'm evenly remotely entitle to) any compensation if the animal did not become what I expected it to be. There is, in my opinion, NO absolute way of determining what an offspring of whatever parents it's from color or pattern, temperment, size, etc. will be at maturity. I think that the the grandparents (and their siblings)as well as the parents (and their siblings) have equal factors in the determination of ANY future offspring. I also think that an "ugly ducking" basically has the same potential for producing a striking offspring as it's striking sibling. It basically boils down to the the actual wording of the agreement. What I would consider Ruby Red may be entirely or slightly different than what you think it means. Without a contract, I think the best possible compensation would be actual price paid (including shipping) and reimbursement for average feeding and maintenance cost. Most likely, you'd just be offered a "greatly reduced" replacemnt. If there is no contract, I think you just eat it.
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>>>>Say just for the sake of discussion that I had a litter of BRBs and two of these babies turned dark ruby red with out markings when they turned 2 years old. Now say I hang onto them and breed them and want to sell the babies say I put a price on these babies of 4 thousand dollars and sort of implied that they would be red like their parent when grown(thus the big price tag).
>>>>
>>>>Now say you bought one for that price and it's now 4 years old and looks like every other BRB around no ruby red. What would you do and expect from me the breeder.
>>>>
>>>>No I don't have any Ruby red ones wish I did though. The reason I ask is that I have been having a discussion on another board about breeders standing behind their high end animals and would like to know everyone here's thought on this.
>>>>Randy
>>>>-----
>>>>I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
>>>>I just want the full glass I paid for !
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>>
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
I just want the full glass I paid for !

Randy,
...Those people breeding and buying and selling morphs for obscene prices have turned this hobby into an awful mess. I find it very silly that anyone thinks any snake is worth multiple thousands of dollars. The two things that make a snake valuable, sometimes honestly worth a hundred dolloars or two, are beauty and rarity. Morphs are not rare. There are many thousands of different morphs and more of them coming along all the time. If you want to find a new morph just get big into the importing of Ball Pythons and every year you will find a couple different looking snakes among the imported thousands of babies. Voila, you will be the new big breeder of another of the many dozens of BP morphs. You will be a millionaire in no time. To think that quite a few people are selling snakes they have found this way so easily for thousands of dollars is just proof of what PT Barnum was famous for saying. There IS a sucker born every minute. Morphs are not prettier than the normal snakes. There actually are a very few exceptions to this. So how come these commonly found and produced morphs that are not as pretty as the normal phase animals are bringing such high prices? The answer is pure and simple GREED. People think that if they get in early enough breeding high dollar morphs they will make lots of money. It is a "house of cards" built upon the money that people keep paying for these morphs. Eventually people will notice how many morphs there are and realize that they are not prettier than the normal snakes and they will then stop paying big dollars. Then the cards will all come tumbling down and the entire reptile business will be in for hard times. I was giving away CB baby snakes when I got into this hobby and I will probably be doing the same thing again some day. In summation: Snakes, even the morphs are great and PEOPLE SUCK.
GRRRR!!! I feel better now.
Jeff

>>Thanks guys let me add there is no written guarantee just sort of implied. as another question other then in ball morphs does anyone offer a written guarantee? Sunshine when I mentioned Horses on the other forum they went off lol Thanks for the replies and hope there will be more.
>>Randy
>>>>I would suspect that snakes would follow the same type of "rules" as other animals such as dogs and horses. Unless a written contract or guarentee stated that such and such purchased animal would be the color stated on the agreement within a certain period of time I would not expect (or think I'm evenly remotely entitle to) any compensation if the animal did not become what I expected it to be. There is, in my opinion, NO absolute way of determining what an offspring of whatever parents it's from color or pattern, temperment, size, etc. will be at maturity. I think that the the grandparents (and their siblings)as well as the parents (and their siblings) have equal factors in the determination of ANY future offspring. I also think that an "ugly ducking" basically has the same potential for producing a striking offspring as it's striking sibling. It basically boils down to the the actual wording of the agreement. What I would consider Ruby Red may be entirely or slightly different than what you think it means. Without a contract, I think the best possible compensation would be actual price paid (including shipping) and reimbursement for average feeding and maintenance cost. Most likely, you'd just be offered a "greatly reduced" replacemnt. If there is no contract, I think you just eat it.
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>>>>>>Say just for the sake of discussion that I had a litter of BRBs and two of these babies turned dark ruby red with out markings when they turned 2 years old. Now say I hang onto them and breed them and want to sell the babies say I put a price on these babies of 4 thousand dollars and sort of implied that they would be red like their parent when grown(thus the big price tag).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now say you bought one for that price and it's now 4 years old and looks like every other BRB around no ruby red. What would you do and expect from me the breeder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No I don't have any Ruby red ones wish I did though. The reason I ask is that I have been having a discussion on another board about breeders standing behind their high end animals and would like to know everyone here's thought on this.
>>>>>>Randy
>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
>>>>>>I just want the full glass I paid for !
>>>>
>>>>
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>>I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
>>I just want the full glass I paid for !

Thanks for that reply. Though their are a lot of Ball python Morphs the discussion that got me going on this was about Chondros. Where you can buy a baby for 10 grand from what many refer to as designer lines and when it grows up and changes you may just have a nice plain jane green snake that you paid a whole lot of money for.
I was also trying to get them to discuss guarantees and brought up how higher end horse and dog breeders stand behind what they produce. Well if nothing else the replies were entertaining. People got stuck on the dogs and horses and WC animals lol but didn't address the issues I'd brought up. After 3 pages of what were for the most part useless replies I gave up.

Was hoping to get more replies then I have to this thread, but from what I have here the way Folks here look at it is really different.

The best answer I got to the whole thing was one person saying they charge so much because people will pay it, which is very true. I hope more will respond here and give their views.
Randy
-----
I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
I just want the full glass I paid for !

Randy,
...Just a guess but perhaps the dog and horse people are more "stand up" about the business because their business has been producing high dollar animals for a lot longer. There business has settled on what the ethical standards of the business are. I would also think that their customers would have an easier time proving damages in court when the horse or dog did not turn out as advertised. Chondro morphs? What morph could in any way compare to the beaty of a stanard yellow phase baby Chondro? Chondros were thousand dollar snakes ten years ago when very very few people knew how to breed them and the supply of CB babies could not meet the demand. There are loads of people breeding them today. Anyone who has seen lots of imported Chondros would see that there are lots of natural and geographical variations in the species. Calling them morphs and paying high dollar for them seems extremely silly to me.
Jeff

>>Thanks for that reply. Though their are a lot of Ball python Morphs the discussion that got me going on this was about Chondros. Where you can buy a baby for 10 grand from what many refer to as designer lines and when it grows up and changes you may just have a nice plain jane green snake that you paid a whole lot of money for.
>>I was also trying to get them to discuss guarantees and brought up how higher end horse and dog breeders stand behind what they produce. Well if nothing else the replies were entertaining. People got stuck on the dogs and horses and WC animals lol but didn't address the issues I'd brought up. After 3 pages of what were for the most part useless replies I gave up.
>>
>>Was hoping to get more replies then I have to this thread, but from what I have here the way Folks here look at it is really different.
>>
>>The best answer I got to the whole thing was one person saying they charge so much because people will pay it, which is very true. I hope more will respond here and give their views.
>>Randy
>>-----
>>I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
>>I just want the full glass I paid for !

Yeah they are and for the reason you mentioned. It is interesting to see the comments on the subject. What I find amazing is how the non breeders IE those who buy or wish they could buy the high end snakes seem to defend the current practices. I can understand the price tags on some snakes as an example if you or I had bought that Albino RB for 70 grand you'd have to charge a princely sum for the babies to even come close to covering your cost.

My mention of horse and dog breeders set some of them off, many thinking it is far easier to breed a high end horse or dog than a snake. Having done all three I've found neither to be easy nor really profitable.

I like the Chondro babies the yellow or the red they are stunning animals as are baby Emeralds. It's the big reason I bought my yellow male, when I saw a photo of him an adult yellow GTP I just had to have him he was only the second I've ever owned .

Emeralds were the same way the price is less then a half of what it was 10 years ago, well except for Basins their still pretty spendy. I've never been into the morphs say like the Ball morphs I think they are pretty snakes but I've had no desire to own one, though I'd take one if it were given to me .

The guarantees are one thing that always have bothered me. I've bought a number of WC animals over the years mostly Emeralds and at the very least have gotten a live arrival guarantee and many times a 7 or 14 day health guarantee. Yet most breeders who tout CBB only as the way to go, don't offer much better if any better. Before someone blast me for that I've never offered more then a month most times 3 weeks and that it feeds and is free of parasites. And most breeders offer what everyone else does in their breed. Now on a 70 dollar Boa 40 dollar corn snake or a 200 dollar BRB that's one thing but when the animal runs up into the range of a fine imported Warm Blood horse that's something else IMO. I don't think there should be life time guarantees or anything like that but much better than they offer now for a real high end animal.

I hope I get more responses to this thread. So far it's running very different then the last one I did on the subject. Wouldn't have thought there would be so much difference just from one breed of snake to another.
Randy

>>Randy,
>>...Just a guess but perhaps the dog and horse people are more "stand up" about the business because their business has been producing high dollar animals for a lot longer. There business has settled on what the ethical standards of the business are. I would also think that their customers would have an easier time proving damages in court when the horse or dog did not turn out as advertised. Chondro morphs? What morph could in any way compare to the beaty of a stanard yellow phase baby Chondro? Chondros were thousand dollar snakes ten years ago when very very few people knew how to breed them and the supply of CB babies could not meet the demand. There are loads of people breeding them today. Anyone who has seen lots of imported Chondros would see that there are lots of natural and geographical variations in the species. Calling them morphs and paying high dollar for them seems extremely silly to me.
>>Jeff
>>
>>>>Thanks for that reply. Though their are a lot of Ball python Morphs the discussion that got me going on this was about Chondros. Where you can buy a baby for 10 grand from what many refer to as designer lines and when it grows up and changes you may just have a nice plain jane green snake that you paid a whole lot of money for.
>>>>I was also trying to get them to discuss guarantees and brought up how higher end horse and dog breeders stand behind what they produce. Well if nothing else the replies were entertaining. People got stuck on the dogs and horses and WC animals lol but didn't address the issues I'd brought up. After 3 pages of what were for the most part useless replies I gave up.
>>>>
>>>>Was hoping to get more replies then I have to this thread, but from what I have here the way Folks here look at it is really different.
>>>>
>>>>The best answer I got to the whole thing was one person saying they charge so much because people will pay it, which is very true. I hope more will respond here and give their views. Come on folks I really would like to hear your opinions on this.
>>>>Randy
>>>>-----
>>>>I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
>>>>I just want the full glass I paid for !
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
I just want the full glass I paid for !

To my knowledge, there isnt' alot of morphs that only show up as the animal ages. But the odds on getting one, even from a clutch born of parents who show the desired 'trait' are not always 100%, especially if only one parent has the visible trait. Most animals that carry the recessive mutation, don't show that morph at all, as the normal gene is dominant. However breeding hets for this mutation have a greater chance of producing the final desired trait in one or more of the offspring.

Most breeders sell normal looking 'hets' as possible hets. Though it is possible to have 100% hets for a certain trait, usually because the possible genetic combinations always produce either a het or a full visible examine of that morph.

The high price of ball python morphs, from what people say in that forum is a combination of relative rarety, as not all morphs developed have wild caught examples, small clutches with mostly single clutches per season and high demand. If people buy $23000 dollar snakes regularly, breeders will keep the prices high. I have seen prices as m uch as $150 000 for ball python morphs, which I consider insane. There isn't an animal I find beautiful enough to want to pay that much money for. Though an all white blacked eyed snake may be cool looking, I still like the natural pattern better.

Rainbow boas, other than subspecies (Brazilian, Peruian, Columbian etc) don't seem to have much natural morphs that I have heard of so far, except for rumors of an albino Brazilian on this forum. A ruby BRB or patternless, may fetch a higher price than a regular BRB, but if it would reach the extreme hights of ball python morphs, time will tell.

For breeder responsibility, as original question asked, it would all depend on how the snake was marketed. If it was explained at purchase, that the snake may change color once it was a couple years old, and it never did, that was the risk the buyer was aware of, at purchase. If it was marketed as a guarenteed to become a ruby snake, then some sort of recompense could be expected. I certainly can understand a seller being reluctant to give a full refund, maybe a free snake with the same chances, but the seller m ay be concerned that the 4 year old snake was even the same one he originaly sold.

Thanks for the reply and you bring up some good points one i hadn't really thought of is that someone might change the animal for another and say hey!! In Horses, Dogs, cattle etc. they use micro chip and other methods and I've heard they have been used in reptiles. So for sure you'd want a positive way to be sure it was your animal.

Hets are sold at a greatly reduced price more then normals but far less than morphs. In Balls they also give paper work with the animal with photos etc but for say GTPs and Emeralds they change as they become adults which makes it difficult to know what it will be until it does change, though in ETBs it is just a base color change. I guess it's as they say " you pay your money and take your chances"

In my example above and no I don't think a RB would change as I said it was just an example. for the sake of discussion lets say they did. The only reason I brought it up was to see how others felt about this and the guarantees that are offered. Thanks again for the reply.
Randy

>>To my knowledge, there isn't' alot of morphs that only show up as the animal ages. But the odds on getting one, even from a clutch born of parents who show the desired 'trait' are not always 100%, especially if only one parent has the visible trait. Most animals that carry the recessive mutation, don't show that morph at all, as the normal gene is dominant. However breeding hets for this mutation have a greater chance of producing the final desired trait in one or more of the offspring.
>>
>>Most breeders sell normal looking 'hets' as possible hets. Though it is possible to have 100% hets for a certain trait, usually because the possible genetic combinations always produce either a het or a full visible examine of that morph.
>>
>>The high price of ball python morphs, from what people say in that forum is a combination of relative rarety, as not all morphs developed have wild caught examples, small clutches with mostly single clutches per season and high demand. If people buy $23000 dollar snakes regularly, breeders will keep the prices high. I have seen prices as m uch as $150 000 for ball python morphs, which I consider insane. There isn't an animal I find beautiful enough to want to pay that much money for. Though an all white blacked eyed snake may be cool looking, I still like the natural pattern better.
>>
>>Rainbow boas, other than subspecies (Brazilian, Peruian, Columbian etc) don't seem to have much natural morphs that I have heard of so far, except for rumors of an albino Brazilian on this forum. A ruby BRB or patternless, may fetch a higher price than a regular BRB, but if it would reach the extreme hights of ball python morphs, time will tell.
>>
>>For breeder responsibility, as original question asked, it would all depend on how the snake was marketed. If it was explained at purchase, that the snake may change color once it was a couple years old, and it never did, that was the risk the buyer was aware of, at purchase. If it was marketed as a guarenteed to become a ruby snake, then some sort of recompense could be expected. I certainly can understand a seller being reluctant to give a full refund, maybe a free snake with the same chances, but the seller m ay be concerned that the 4 year old snake was even the same one he originaly sold.
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
I just want the full glass I paid for !

Randy, one of the things no one seems to have mentioned is: if you buy a high dollar dog with a good pedigree, it is easy to get the dogs history. You can send for to the AKC, the UKC, or other places like that. You are absolutely sure of its lineage. I dont think there is anything even remotely like that with snakes. You are taking someones word for everything. Where would you complain? You can report someone to the AKC with dogs, and it would really hurt their reputation. It is too b ad there isnt something like the AKC for snakes. Oh, and by the way, personally I wouldnt pay anything close to that kind of money for ANY animal. Nice talking at ya again buddy, take care...Bruce

Bruce A registry would be nice but not likely to happen unless someone or group of people decided they wanted to start one. AKC, FDSB, UKC ETC. were started that way. What really surprises me is that no one I'm aware of is trying to establish blood testing or typing for morphs and other high end reptiles. Which is kinda weird since some of say the Ball morphs go for as much as say a really good race horse. Would makes hets more valuable then they are now and would be good proof of what your buying. Horses and dogs have had DNA and blood typing for a while now but then there are large clubs ETC. willing to spend the dough on the research.

I'd hate to admit how much we've spent on some of the animals that have free loaded around here. My wife is into Dressage and has way to many horses lol. Take care. Randy

>>Randy, one of the things no one seems to have mentioned is: if you buy a high dollar dog with a good pedigree, it is easy to get the dogs history. You can send for to the AKC, the UKC, or other places like that. You are absolutely sure of its lineage. I dont think there is anything even remotely like that with snakes. You are taking someones word for everything. Where would you complain? You can report someone to the AKC with dogs, and it would really hurt their reputation. It is too b ad there isnt something like the AKC for snakes. Oh, and by the way, personally I wouldnt pay anything close to that kind of money for ANY animal. Nice talking at ya again buddy, take care...Bruce
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty !
I just want the full glass I paid for !