Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have 6 three toed hatchlings,only 1 has swollen eyes I keep the humidity at around 80 and have fresh water at all times.I soak them daily.The sick one seems to move around good he moves from the hot side of the tank to the cool side he drinks water,he doesn't eat because he can't see.I don't think it's a diese his eye's are just swollen shut.I've been putting vitamin A on his eyes I read this on a care sheet.My set up must be pretty close the other 5 are doing fine.I don't want this little guy to die,I would like to give him to someone who has more experience .If any one would like to try and save him I would gladly ship him to you for free.I have done everything that I can do and it doesn't seem to help.

Jason - too cold to ship - Do the following.

Separate the hatchling and put him in a "dark" (no lights) but warmer place.
I prefer the temperature to be 84-87 degrees.
I would then soak him in luke-warm Pedialite. I personally use Gatorade. Yes- Gatorade. Some people don't like to because of the artificial stuff. Depends... I've used both & found Gatorade works just as well.
Keep your humidity at the level it is now.
Try NOT to disturb him The less the better.
You can keep on using the eyedrops, but I have many recover without it. If everything goes well, he should be willing to eat within 48-96 hours.
Don't waste time - I found that warmth is so important!
Good luck - keep me up to date. If it was warmer, I would take him. Turtle88(a)

the vitamin A is good. just be sure not to be too liberal with it...follow recommendations. excessive vitamin A can cause another problem called hypervitamosis.
an eye swelling condition may be caused by vitamin A deficiency in the diet, it could be related to a respiratory infection, or a particular substrate/foriegn substance that is irritating it's eyes, or possibly dehydration.

is there any liquid discharge from the eyes/nose? bubbles?anything else you can remark about on it's health? do the fecals look solid or runny? etc.

you should seperate this turtle from the rest and provide fresh and appropriate substrate for all, after cleaning the aquarium ( if any ). a substrate that has been used for too long under very humid conditions is an ideal breeding ground for infectious microbes. soak the turtle in warm water several times a day, and I would recommend a reptile vet visit to determine whether antibiotics are needed. an office visit might cost you $30 antibiotics, but you need to be able to swing this easily to care for half a dozen hatchlings.

the vet visit should be done before shipping a sick and distressed baby turtle. if the problem is related to respiratory and/or the turtle hasn't been able to eat in more than a week, I wouldn't give it much chance of making the trip unless you payed the $30 or $40 for overnight. so it's probably going to run you about the same as the vet visit anyway.

if the situation has not improved, and you can't get into a reptile vet. I would be happy to receive it, and see if I can help.

Mick

Please get the baby to a vet. Swollen eyes are not a symptom of another problem.

"Swollen eyes are not a symptom of another problem."

????
oh, I guess they're just a symptom of swollen eyes then!

thanks for the chime in PHL, and thorough assistance in making sure all possibilities are covered. but I'm not of the school who prefers to look only at symptoms believing there is no other underlying cause. that's what wrong with medicine of all types these days, treatment of symptoms instead of what causes the symptoms.

in fact, swollen eyes can indicate a compromised immune response, which may include respiratory illnesses, where the lacrimal glands have been irritated. Vitamin A deficiency, among other things, can set the whole thing in motion and predispose the turtle to other illnesses which may have the symptoms observed. this is why I asked for any other health related observations.

but thanks for the backup on the vet call I originally recommended in TWO sections of my last message.

"Swollen eyes are not a symptom of another problem."

????
oh, I guess they're just a symptom of swollen eyes then!

My deepest apologies! That was a BAD typo. I meant that they ARE a symptom of another problem. I guess I need to be a bit more alert when I post.

wheeew...that's alright. glad to hear it was just a typo! ahh well...it gets info out there anyway when you have to defend your content. sorry if I sounded a little too snappy, I'm pretty direct most times when it comes to addressing what I think is inaccurate health related info. it sounded so off, I should have asked you to clarify first.

Mick

No problem at all about the snappy. If incorrect information is being give out,it NEEDS to be corrected. Trust me, there are many times that I have to hold fingers on another message board I use to keep from getting a TOS violation.

I brought the hatchling to the local vet,they had no idea what to do for it.They said it was to small and told me they couldn't help me.I'm trying the gatorade soaks and keeping him dark and warm.The hatchling is looseing strength every day,it doesn't look good.The hatchling's nose isn't running,don't know about fecal,he hasn't eaten in over 2 weeks.

Will it open its mouth? If you can get it to open its mouth you can try force feeding it. Try some beef or turkey baby food. Put some in a small syringe, get its mouth open and squirt a little in.
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0.1.0 snapping turtle
0.1.0 painted turtle
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
0.1.0 Australian shepard
0.0.12 chickens
3.2.0 children
1.0.0 husband

oh man, this is bad...was this a reptile vet? they didn't even suggest a stomach tube, eye ointment, or general antibiotics? they usually have stomach tubes you can get to force feed & hydrate. you can make your own with some very small diameter surgical tubing (like from a nasal canula )and use the syringe to administer through, but a vet or someone expereinced is really recommended to insert it so it doesn't end up in the lungs.

last resort you can try it yourself, but this one may be too little for any available tubing without blocking the airway. you may be able to get it's mouth open with a credit card or something similar ( flat plastic ). just be careful if you give fluid nourishment straight from a syringe vs. a stomach tube. there is a greater possibilty a weak baby turtle will aspirate on the liquid and drown. give very little at a time.

have you tried to get it's eyes open to flush? try saline, or a sterile muti-purpose contact lens disinfecting/rinse solution. they usually contain boric acid, which is good. flush liberally and follow with eye drops for turtles ( most pet stores ).I also use the thick gel lubricant eye drops commonly used for severe eye irritation in people. Allergan Refresh Celluvisc. it works, turtles have eyes too.

even if the turtle has enough strength to eat on it's own, the turtle will not eat what it can't see. if you can get them open for a while, and it has the strength, it may try.

these are just hail mary's from afar. hard to diagnose without seeing the whole picture, but that's what I recommend.

alternative #2, try to find out if you have a breeder/keeper or turtle/tortoise conservation society/rescue in your area. any reptile vet in the area or fish & game official should know. that way someone else who specializes in turtles can dirctly examine and provide some care. many times an experienced keeper is a better than a vet. vets that don't deal with a great deal of reptiles are usually too generalized to know what alternative methods developed by breeders and keepers work well.

alternative #3,contact me by email if you want to ship...but it will absolutely have to be same day or overnight. and I don't give that much stock. absolutely try #2 first.

Mick
fireside3@hotmail.com

Mick,
Are you saying you would really recommend trying to intubate a hatchling, to someone who may never have done it before?
Thats a pretty invasive procedure, one that could easily kill the hatchling if improperly done.
Golfdiva's suggestion makes more sense: using a syringe (without needle) to administer pureed food into its mouth would be safer: the two times I've had to forcefeed, I've done it that way with great success.
Stephanie

I would prefer you read my messages completely and make an attempt to comprehend before posting back.

I believe I made it abundantly clear that it was recommended a vet or someone with experience perform this. that was mentioned in my first paragraph.

I also said it could be attempted as "last resort", and, that's what I meant. i.e., if none of the other suggestions work, and, if a reptile vet or experienced keeper is not available to do it.

I believe I also outlined reasons it might not be an option, and, alternatives and cautions on other methods of force feeding as well.

of course it's invasive...so is forcing open a mouth where you could cause injury, and, injecting food into the throat by syringe where it could be aspirated on, if you want to be specific. further more, doing this forcing open of the mouth every single time, as opposed to once and a tubing. there aren't any non-invasive ways to "force feed".

your statement as to what makes "more sense", based on your 2 experiences, is vague and arbitrary. it only makes "more sense" to use a syringe alone if you can't safely get in a stomach tube. there is a very good reason this method is used as opposed to putting food and liquid directly in the mouth of the sick, weak, or severely injured. turtle or person for that matter.

this hatchling may have only a few more days to live and I'm trying to get all the options out there, so again, I would appreciate it very much if senseless time did not have to be wasted while you pose questions to me, critiquing what I have plainly addressed already. if you have something new to offer, then offer it, or, if you think you are better suited with 2 force feedings under you belt....then offer to have it shipped to you.

Thanks for clarifying. That's why I asked what it was, exactly, that you were advising doing.
What's with the attitude? I wasn't attacking you, just asking a question: please extend the same courtesy to me.
I don't pretend to know everything, let alone dispense medical advice based on my experiences. I just relate my experiences to others.
I would urge you not to read any more into my post than was actually written.
Regards,
Stephanie

clarity is oversimplification. ( Ayn Rand )

your post was not a simple question of verification, since you countered with an argument before any such verification was received.

and the answer to your question was plainly in the words of my post to read, is my point.

the "attitude" you read into my message is in fact what I call being concise and unambiguous, also known as direct to some people who may be offended by too much clarity. I simply responded more concisely to your lack of attention before ripping off a message. you call it an "attack", I call it defense against your premature statements which lacked understanding.

if you disagree, fine, then state so and give your reasons. no problem.

but don't then disagree over what makes "more sense" if you're going to admit you weren't even clear on what I said to begin with.

next, you don't give medical advise based upon experience?
you most certainly did though...you referenced what proceedure you thought made "more sense".

I don't find anything wrong with that. your statements are just in conflict, and you don't understand my thoroughness, making it hard to communicate with you.

to not give medical advise based upon experience is unrealistic and irrational. just so long as the particular amount of experience is in context. many people here have given medical related advise based on experience at some point, that's a big part of this forum judging by the subject matter of many previous posts.

I would be glad to extend the same courtesy, if you would pose your question to clarify an opinion before questioning the sense of what you are not clear on.

thank you
Mick

Hi Jason, Kinda hard to get vet that handles young hatchlings. Gatorade doesn't work overnight. If he doesn't drink, dilute it with water - about 3 parts water & 1 part gatorade. Sometimes they don't take to it because they find it too strong. But regardless - if he take a little in, it's a good sign. He's getting a little bit of calorie intake. But I hope you warm it up or give it at room temperature. Give it another day or two. If I have the time, I'll drop my this site tomorrow.

If you are really worried about food - I'll try to talk you through on how to force feed it. I've done it before and successfully too.

Good luck. T88a

so what's the word on the hatchling so far? hope it's still hangin' in there...

Hi,
I've breed and captive raised three varieties of native boxies for 14 years. It seems like your little one needs a thin small catheter attached to a small syringe holder filled with almost a liquid food ( baby food is good). Vitamins, food, and a small amount of doxycycline can all be administered via this tube. The turtles head can't really swallow unless he stretches his/her neck out as their spine is pulled in an "S" shapped pattern. The safest way is to pull the head out straight; then slide the rounded tube in with some olive oil coating the tip. While looking down his throat move the tip ever so gently at the back of his mouth; this will cause him to reflex and close his airway, and expose a larger hole. That is his esophagus to his stomach. Move slowly until until you reach his stomach. This can be tricky in small ones ...easier to learn on mature ones. But it will save his life. I have done many times. I am not a Vet but a biologist into native boxies and various other herps. Let me know if I can be of any other help. Hopefully he will have improved by now.
Ric

Keeping him soaking in warm fliuds is good ; but I'm funny about using artifical sweeters made for our palate and body and knowing that various drugs safe for humans are lethal to chelonians. Pedialite didin't used to have the artifical sweeteners; but all things change.
Sorry I saw this post so late. So many responses that didn't deal with the boxie but peoples emotions.