Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm sure this question has been here in one form or another, but I'll ask again... I've only been into boas for about the last 10 months or so, what is everyones opinion on the market for morphs??? When I started out, I remember just born Sunglows selling for 7k or so, and now I see yearlings for 4-5k.... This is just one example.. I'm thinking of purchasing alot of higher end animals this year, and I'm just wondering how fast the market drops... Would it be worth it to purchase a sub adult motley and hopefully breed him this coming season, or will everyone and their brother be producing snakes of these sorts, which would possibly crash the market??? I love the snakes I own, and I'd have every morph out there if they sold for petstore prices, but obviously the only way to obtain all of the animals I want, is to play the breeding game... If this was a dumb post, then please disregaurd, but people with a thought, I'd love to hear your opinion on which way you think the morph industry could/will turn, and why... Thanks in advance for your advice/opinions... Joe Lydon
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Joe Lydon
Got Boids?

There is ALWAYS that possibilty in LIFE!!!!!!

I have been in the business a Very long time, and I see your valid points about the Sunglows. I have been hearing ever since 1997 that Albino Boas are going to be 500 bucks every year since.

Even if someone got a Pair of HETS or Albinos FREE and bred them, they would NOT sell them for 500 bucks. Even if they were CRACK addicts and needed Crack tomorrow.

I would like to hear others opinion on this subject. I have seen some AWESOME Herpers and Great businessmen loose THOUSANDS in the snake business, and get out. I have also seen poor herpers and not good businessmen make GOOD money in the business.

MY POINT??? DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Don't Buy from JUST One breeder who is nicer then the others. BE SMART, and DEFINATLEY don't do this ALL in 1 to 2 weeks and have your whole family in debt with your cards maxed out because of 7 success stories!!!!!

Again, I have been in this business a long time. I am so confident in the Ball Market, and Boa Market, and EVEN snake Market that I just took out a Loan (YES AFTER 10 years of Proof to myself this is right for me) for close to 1 Million Dollars on my Reptile Business and new Snake Building!!!

Even if SUNGLOWS, Motleys, or even if there is a LUCY Boa, and they are 500 bucks in 2005, I'll be comfortable with my decision to keep going, and continue in the snake business!!! Balls, Boas, Pythons, or even Colubrids.

In my opinion this is just the Beginning. I'll say the same next year too. The ONLY stopping of this business from Some making a LOT of Money and Some going BROKE is LEGISLATION!!!!! That is a real possibilty, and I see the ONLY downside to the snake market.

IF I WERE YOU, I would contact those who have Failed and HATE the Business, and then contact some with Success. Don't Put ALL your eggs with ONE breeder you like better then the others. There are TONS of honest good people who will treat your right.

NOW, Go GET THEM!!! LOL. Isn't it fit that this business is called the "SNAKE BUSINESS"???? LOL

Yes, there are a LOT of snakes!!! Litterally, both human and Reptile!!!!!

Hope everyone is doing well. I'll be able to visit the forum when I get some more time. I wish everyone the BEST BOA YEAR EVER!!!!

Jeremy Stone

On the whole, I'd have to say you're right. But, I do remember a couple months back that someone was selling albino boas for something around $600 bucks. As far as the quality of these boas or the reputation of the person offering these for sale...I have absolutely zero information. BUT...it is happenning.

Marcus

The $600 albino boas I do recall seeing on kingsnake with "ONE EYE" thats why there $600 genetic deformities. The Boa Market is stronger than ever as well as the Ball Python Market. There are so many new morphs out there, theres no end in sight. The snake industry in all is strong, you just have to be smart and purchase your snakes from well known breeders like Jeremy stated. Thats my opinion, Chad

I agree albinos and EVERYTHING is going to go down in price. THAT IS LIFE, Unless Michael Jackson owns an albino and it has a one eye, that may be a "VINTAGE" albino that could be worth 100K!!!! Dead or ALIVE!!!!! This is STILL the beginning with the new age of Technology and the INTERNET!!!!!!

My Point? If I have 500 Albino Boas this year, I won't sell ANY "healthy" Albino FOR LESS THEN 800 and that is Still too cheap!!!! Most are 1K to 1500. If they don't sell, I will be having a LOT of room!!!!!

Call me Stupid, Yes albinos are going down in price, but I just KNOW they are going to be Good for the next 10 years!!! Heck, I'm even saving back 200 dollar HET FEMALES still!!!!!!!

The Snake Market is in GREAT SHAPE, unless Legislation Ruins the business. I then think I'm doomed because as much as I love Canada or Mexico, I won't be moving!!! Jeremy

I just got back in the hobby after 8 or 9 years and the whole reptile market as a whole is doing fantastic. The popularity continues to grow. Prices do go down with everything but that's just reality. Boas continue to hold their value. Even after 10 years nice looking Suri's are holding their price as well as common Boas. Boas are most wanted like Balls because they are more manageable animals. That is why the Burmese market went quick.....not as big of a demand. It does look like it might be resurrecting with some new morphs.

If you are looking to get rich quick, it doesn't seem like the way to do it. There are so many variables, one of them being that you are dealing with live animals.

There isn't an end in sight with as much interest as there is in the hobby growing every day especially with great breeders making their lines better an better with selective breeding.

Hey
I thought this was a great post,
Around here (ar. and ok.) Albino boas that are healthy from good breeders are about 500. Im friends with the guy I think he is giving me one for 300. Helps to know people!!! I personally think there are way to many people jumping into the breeding game and I think prices are going to drop. Personal opinion. I was deeply considering moving toward snows, but i looked around, and saw so is everyone else. I think the prices of normals will stay constant. I also think the internet and in person are way diferent. Big female balls sell for 500 on the internet, I sold my 2000 gram for 125 at a show. I think albinos will bottom out at 300 over the next 2 or 3 years. I beileve your Double recessive morphs will stay at a higher price londer due to it being more complicated to get the morph. But if everyone gets into them the compition will drive prices down. I dont know that just what i think. I love snakes and If i can make a buck doing what i love then i am going to do it. I have been sell reptiles for a little bit now, It is way harder then i thought but it is great, but it takes detication. My advise to someone thinking of making money off them , is to make sure you understand oll the risks and have fun.
But really I could be wrong it wouldnt be the first time, LOL watch albinos are going to go through the roof in a few years for somereason just because i said they wouldnt.
jonathanM
J&A Reptiles

Thanks for all of the advice guys.. I didn't expect so many people to respond.. Snakes are almost my life, literally.. I've almost lost a 5yr relationship because I was going on the net everyday for countless hours, checking the classified ads.. I spent a good deal of money in 04'on boas, for someone just starting out in morphs.. This was another HUGE issue with my Fiance, it actually put us to the point of seperation.. When we had gotten back together, I ended up selling every snake that was replacable, and kept the only 3 that would be very difficult to get my hands on again.. In the mean time, to see if I could have a successful breeding trial, I purchased a 50lb normal female and a 6' male hypo... After I pulled the male, I played the waiting game.. After about 6 months later, I wake up to a litter of 43 live babies and 13 slugs.. I had put snakes on the back burner for the time being, but after having that litter, it woke up... I've sold almost the whole litter, and I'm using the cash to buy more snakes.. I will never let anyone else have an effect on my interests, I'm going full force with snakes and crossing my fingers... Again, thanks for everyone's advice. Does anyone else have problems with their spouse because of snakes??? Don't get me wrong, my girl likes them, but she doesn't like how it's become my life..CALL ME WEIRD?? THANKS
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Joe Lydon
Got Boids?

I am lucky to have a kick ass fiance. I just got back into reptiles last July. I have spent about 4K or so since then, turned a spare bedroom into a snake room, built a rat rack in the garage and spend countless hours with my hobby. I even went driving tonight for Charina and she tagged along. She doesn't complain except about the cash, considering that we are still paying off debt. I still managed to purchase a home and have bills paid on time, etc... It's all about a balance that I am trying to learn with the hobby and I think it might make her more involved as well as make her realize that she is still first. I am lucky and I think that's why I asked her to marry me not too long ago. Take care!

First my wife gave me grief about breeding rats and mice so I went the frozen route. Then she complained about having frozen rodents in the freezer so I had to purchase a separate freezer. Okay, I couldn't blame her to much there and I needed more room anyway. Then the, "you're spending way to much time and money on snakes" syndrome started and that is where I drew the line. I told her I was involved with snakes well before I met her, she knew this when she met me, and given a choice between the snakes or her there was little doubt in my mind which was headed out the door first lol. Now, the situation has totally reversed itself. Every time I want to sell an animal my wife chimes in, "oh, you've had it since it was a baby, you can't sell that one now." My only recourse is, I tell her when she cleans all of the cages and water dishes, feeds and maintains the entire collection then she will have a lot more say. Until then she has the privilege of playing with them and leaving the behind the scenes daily work to me. I wish I had someone to do that for me. Man, that would be utopia. A little help anyone?

I try and get my lady invloved as mush as possible. She was kind of freaked out at first and she even cried when she found out that my Boas could eat her Chihuahua but she sees how much enjoyment I get out of this hobby. It might help that I quit wasting money on drinking and smoking....I let her know that every time I make a purchase and then I also tell her that I could be building a bike or a Mopar and that costs even more(I don't own any Motleys or any oorphs for that matter). It sounds like bribery or extortion but it works!!!

Over all I think I am just exremely lucky or a great salesman. I think I learned it from talking my parents into me getting a snake when I was 9. That was a hell of a tough sell!!!!

Trust and Beleive:
If your other half, be they male or female, is NOT nehind you and what you are doing 100%, then keeping snakes will be be hard and breeding them even harder. Justifying keeping them by showing the spouse how much money you can make and how that money benefits THEM directly only goes so far.

Bottem line: If you really like the things marry someone that AT LEAST is as nuts about them as you, even if they dont want to open a business or make money at it. I think that the spouses that arent into the business end of it but really dig the snakes are some of the neatest people in the world. Cause they dont kill dreams and dont nag about what you BOTh like.

Sincerely,
Fred Albury

my sponsor was always sending his daughter over here to check up on me... i dont know if he was just not thinking or what but he sure got a wake up call when she cancled her return ticket... my girl is just as crazy about snakes as me and probably has more knowledge about how to run a great breeding facility then me... but dont tell her i said that.. lol
gosh... guess i'm lucky too..

shiloh

Thank goodness for my Wife.

She is my accountant, and knows the business VERY WELL. The ONLY problem is that she knows the business so well that she gets MAD when I sell a certain snake EVEN though she handles all the Money and tells me I need some Cash in the Account. I then sell a snake to get the Cash into our Account, and she gets mad about the CERTAIN snake I sell to get the Cash in the account!!! That is the only problem LOL!!!!

It works great. As anyone who knows me well, knows that Kara (My Spouse) is By far the Most important person in my life. She is quite the Herper, although she doesn't eat drink and get up at 4:30 in the morning becuase I wanted to make sure all is well in the snake room as I got up to take a Leak. Also, she wouldn't check the forum while going to the Bathroom at 4:30 AM after she checked the snake room. LOL

I certainly miss the forum. I have been gone for a few weeks. Great Place to relax and Post.

Anyway, this was about the WIFE. THANKS KARA!!!!

Jeremy Stone

Supply and demand drive this market just like every other market. The more there are the less they will cost and vise versa the less there are the more they will cost. This works with every thing that's for sale. First the price of something is not set by a desperate person that dumps there price to be the first to sell out, so when he's out he's out if you stick to your price and the demand is there you will get what you are asking for know matter who you are big breeder sell out to. I think most people want customer service like answering E-mails and phone calls before and after the sale and representing your product correctly. Four or five years ago the Albino Boa market price (not desperate price) went down to $800.00 because a lot were produced the next year the price jumped back up to $1200.00 because not many were produced. This is retail if you want to sell your baby's to a wholesaler they buy whole litters or lot sizes for about half market value. I think you will see the price of anything that is produced form a dominate breeding price drop faster than a breeding with a simple recessive animal because you get more Homozygous animals in dominate breeding so it is easier to flood the market. Just remember its supply and demand and I think the demand is going to be relatively high for all snake morphs. Thanks for reading and good luck in all your breeding Scott Mid Atlantic Morphs

You buy a new morph for serious money in order to make some money four years later when you breed it.

By then, the major morph breeders will have created at least three new morphs and the one you have bought is outdated (and the price drops).

The only reason why albinos keep their price is that the reproduction of these animals has suffered either from inbreeding or genetic faults. Therefore demand and supply are even.

But Jeremy is right: The only thing that can really bust the business is legislation.

I have seen fighting dog breeders lose a fortune when these kind of dogs were banned in Germany.
Boa constrictor

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The #1 Boa constrictor site in the world wide web

I have been keeping herps since I was about 15 years old, that’s almost 30 years for those doing the math LOL and in that time I have watched the hobby go from being a few dedicated individuals to something that resembles the gold rush of 1849 in CA. The money has gotten so outrageous that the hobby is no longer referred to as a hobby but as an “industry”. It now has more that it’s fair share of scam artists and others that are not into the hobby for the love of the animals but for the love of money! Damn it people get jobs!!!!

If the market on some of these snakes would level off a bit and make it affordable to all, then the money would not attract the criminal element as it has. Maybe our animals would be safe at the shows and we would not have to worry about them be stolen by “Joe the crack head” if we turn our backs for a second. If the price of the animals were at a more affordable level maybe then new keepers would be more interested in learning about the animals first and looking to breed them second.
If we could just take the money factor out of breeding then we could be back to working with the animals for the love of the animals and all the bad guys would just go on to the next get rich quick scheme. Our hobby could go back to the friendly little group it once was without the scams and scum that now comes with it.

Unfortunately, I don’t think that we will ever return to the “good old days” and each time I wish we could, I know the younger guys are sitting back saying “I wish this guy would stop his B-----ing over this” LOL.
But to answer your question, I don’t see the market crashing anytime soon. Even if the Albino Boa does drop to a nice $600.00 per baby a litter of Albinos is still a very profitable boa to breed. If you figure a litter of 25 baby albino boas at $600.00 each, that is $15,000.00 return on your $1,200.00 investment three years ago. Furthermore that $1,200.00 investment will now payoff, for at the very least, every other year for the next 10-15 years. To bring the issue even further, you now use the albino boas to trade for other boas that you may want to produce and keep a few of the top picks for yourself each season. So you use the Albino baby to trade for a Hypo and an Anery Boa. Now you have the mix to make sunglows, snows, SnowGlows, Ghosts and a bunch more, which in turn makes more money, so on and so forth. So regardless of what the price of the boas are when you go to sell your young you “investment” will still pay off much better then any Money Market or CD. Now this investment is not with out risk, but the market dropping is not going to be one of them. IBD, theft, equipment failure and other perils of the hobby or more likely to cost you your investment then the market place ever will.
Good Luck
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

I totally agree with you. After getting back into the hobby back in July I didn't expect everyone to have a business. When I had eggs(I bred colubrids) hatch I just sold them at my local meetings or whatnot. I never thought I would get rich quick. A few thoughts popped into my mind about getting a couple Albino Burmese, but that was only to get more of what I loved, reptiles.

It's okay to make a little change from your hobby or even have a business but the main focus should be about the animals.

There are a few folks in the hobby that I really admire and I think we all should do our part in taking the steps of helping people realize that these animals that we keep are truly amazing.

As far as the market goes....to be completely honest it won't affect me regardless. I am in this hobby for the animals not the cash flow.

Not to be Rude here, but read my post to Hoppy. I totally disagree with your posts, but that is what the forum is about. I respectfully disagree.

It seems that more people that keep animals for the love, put themselves above those who do it for money. I am not saying you are doing that. However, just let me tell you where I'm coming from.

I have kept snakes for 25 years. NEVER have I taken better care of my snakes then I have now with the knowlege out there, and also because my snakes are a lot more valuable, so I NEED to take better care. I don't love them anymore then I did before, and I kept them VERY nice before, I just keep them better now because of the "NEW AGE" of technology, and my collection Value.

I think the more expensive animals get BETTER care, so those who care about the ANimals for the LOVE of the animals, should be a little pleased there is a market out there of expensive animals. They get TREATED better. What about those that don't get treated better?? I think with the knowlege we have now, they are STILL way better off now then then.

It is OK to do this for the Love of the animals or Money. People aren't better becasue they do this for the "LOVE" of the animals then they do for the "LOVE" of money.

I love Both, and I can say I love snakes just as much now as I did when I had my first!!!!

My 2 Cents again. Jeremy Stone

I am not knocking you or your business. I am not putting myself above anyone nor am I saying that you are only doing it for money. The only way for this hobby to grow is with people like you, producing awesome animals, giving great customer service, etc...

My post was in agreement with Hoppy's over the fact that it seems like everyone is starting their own reptile breeding business in order to get rich quick. Bottom line. Everyone has different ideas of what getting rich is, having a career or what 1k means to them. I beleive that Hoppy is referring to the greed factor in the hobby. Whenever you put a value on something, especially a high one... greed comes into play. There is greed in everything but I have experienced it first hand with a few of my first transactions in the hobby and it sucks!!!

All my animals get the same treatment regardless of how expensive they are. Mind you I don't have a 10K animals but to be honest with you.... I don't know what I would do different than I do now with my good 'ole normal BCI's.

Like I said earlier I am not knocking you or the business aspect of the hobby. As a matter of fact I am more envious than anything. It would be awesome to be able to work with my animals and for it to provide an income. You are one lucky dude. And I believe you that you love your animals just as much as your first.

I totally understand, and I wasn't trying to take a shot at you. All I was saying is that Many times people refer to the OLD days as better for the SNAKES, or the whole business. I guess it is their experience. My points were just that it really has cleaned up a TON. Prices were WAY WAY inflated back in the 80's and 70's for imports and there weren't many private breeders. There were a LOT Of scams becasue there was no Checks and Balance systems. That is all I was trying to say.

Also, NOT you, but many people refer to keeping animals for the LOVE is somehow better then those who do it for money. That has always bugged me. (That is just my personal experience). When I was a kid, I had a pet store guy that was in it for the money. He would Charge me 4 times the amount of what I should have paid for more then 30 animals back in the mid 80's. He LOVED snakes, and he also loved money. I always admired him for being able to do both. However, I also wished I could have gotten BETTER animals for better prices. Because of the way it was back then, it was TOO risky to do it that way. I tried 2 times and got TOTALLY ripped off. Today is different. I guess it is all personal. Probably Hoppy would like to have it the old way again, and I LOVE the new way!!!! To each his own.

I hope you think I wasn't arguing or taking it wrong. Just having some fun debate.

I completely get your point about the GREED. That is really where the animals suffer, and where the business does suck. That happens in EVERY SINGLE Hobby or business though.

To get back to the ORIGINAL topic, I think we really are still in the INFANCY of the Hobby and Business. Maybe the prices EXCEPT for the BRAND NEW morphs may never be what they were in the late 90's mid 2000's, but there is still a VERY GOOD deal of business to be done, and there really are a LOT of people who could do this for a living if they did it RIGHT!!! The problem with some people is they want it all NOW!!!! That will NEVER happen. It will take many years to be CONSITENT in the Snake business if you do it for a living. I have personally felt that I could do it for a living without my outside job for the last 5 years. HOwever, I have just decided to make this my SOLE business, and my other job will be worked VERY VERY little just to keep my health insurance in the past few weeks. I'm lucky that company will allow that for me. Independent Family insurance rates would KILL ME!!!!! So, I guess I could say I'm a FULL timer now!!! Scary, but exciting for me!!!!!

Have a great weekend.

Jeremy

The only thing that really bothers me to a certain degree is folks that get all bummed out about the market taking a dive and how their "investment" isn't an investment anymore because someone is selling them for $400 cheaper or something. And they whine and moan how they wasted so much money and that jerk on the ads is selling his animals for below market value. I have seen it on this very forum.

Most profitable investments only become profitable with time, money and certain risks and it seems like there are a bunch of folks wanting to get rich quick without taking the time and putting the energy and love into it.

And I don't think you will ever be respected in the hobby or be successful if you do have a business....and YOU DON'T TRULY LOVE THE HOBBY AND ANIMAL ASPECT FIRST!!! That is why I think that you have been so successful and few of the other full time breeders/dealers.

Take care-

Brett

Don't you remember the Colubrid days of the 80's? No Internet, just clubs and Magazines. There were More SCUM and Fraud and Theft then EVER before. IT WAS called an industry back in the 70's and 80's. MOre theifs, and Smugglers that did our Hobby more damage then ANY Goldrush!!!!! The good old days??? I take Today ANYDAY over the 70's or 80's.

Man, just getting all the Reptiles we had today was MOST IMPART Smuggling, Theft, Fraud, and corruption worse then you'll ever see today!!!!! That was more damaging then EVER before!!!

Just my thoughts there Hoppy!!!!! I think back then there were more Full timers then there are today!!!! Everyone Should have a JOB!!!!!!! A Job always has been, and ALWAYS will be relative too!!!!!!

You call yourself a Cop, I call myself an Insurance and Investment Seller. Snakes are also YOUR job and mine too!!! People will do what they want to do. There will always be fraud, and negative aspects of EVERY "JOB", "Industry", "Hobby". I never understand why people get upset about the market today and refer to the past as soo much better. It almost makes me think they really don't have experience with the Past. (Not saying you don't) but that is just my thoughts!!!

Jeremy Stone

While not all people that are in it for the money are "Bad". There is numerous that are. Evidence is something I have observed; when I say that some people in this hobby for the money are the people trying to force boas into early reproduction. I can tell you that I know more than a handful of people that fall into this category, and that is only local people. Don’t get me wrong, I want to make money of this hobby…. lots of it, but you will never find the dollar sings so big in my eyes that I will risk the health of my animals. I’m sorry, but there are way too many people in this category so, yeah I think money is a factor to a certain degree. I would be surprised if anyone on here doesn’t know anyone that fits into this category.

I totally agree. I think EVERYONE in life has been greedy to some to degree in life and most in snakes.

I know I have have been Greedy myself in the past. I think everyone on a larger scale really have to protect their collection as a whole, and that sometimes means getting rid of a few bad apples if that makes sense. Money can exploit the animals, and that can be a bad thing. There is good and bad in all. Jeremy

They should be fine. You get a morph because you like it and see potentail. In the time you raise that animal it's price will drop. If you look at it for what it is you'll be fine. This is a hobby and an industry, I don't see why folks can't just enjoy both aspects of it. Make a few dollars doing somthing you enjoy doing, add your own twist to things, and have fun.

There is no such thing as easy money anywhere. If you breed on a large enough scale to make a living at it, you'll probably be working more hours than if you had a normal job. If you aren't working harder than I feel sorry for your animals.

Anything could happen at anytime, you just have to be prepaired for the worst case scenerio (sp?) as with any investment. If you don't love the game as a whole you will fail. animal-science-money-work-
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com