Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just last night I the 2004 Nuevo Leon king back in my collection and as soon as I get my digital back from repair I will post a pic. My question is;

What is the difference between a Nuevo Leon thayeri king and what's known as a milksnake phase thayeri?

I definately understand the Leonis phase and milksnake phase, but how does this Nuevo Leon fit in. I guessing it might be locality, I really don't know.

Good news for my collection and I'm pretty happy, last night besides the 2004 male Nuevo Leon back, I got two more 2004 babies a male Jalisco milksnake and female abberent calking with an all black belly. They were all free and came with complete set-ups.
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Happy Herping,
Uncloudy
Chris from Hot-Yuma,AZ frontera border town

Actually the terms, Thayeri, Variable, and Nuevo Leon are interchangable.
Thayeri refers (I think) to the person who first "discovered" and classified them.
Nuevo Leon refers to the region in Mexico they naturally occur as in Durango mtn kingsnake (greeri) or Sonora mtn kingsnake (pyromelena).
Variable refers to the different variations, ie... milksnake phase, leonis phase, or melanistic phase.
The confusion is the same kind of confusion there was with Gray banded kingsnakes. There was a time when it was thought that alterna and blairs were two different kinds of snakes.
We hobbiest and herpetologists use the terms leonis to describe in general the type of "thayeri" with saddles and a light colored base. (See my Pic) We also use the term milksnake phase to describe the type of "thayeri" you show in your picture.

I hope this helps. CG

To add to what Chris G. stated.....Thayeri have nearly the same story behind them as Alterna. At one time gray banded kings were linked with the Mexicana group and they were separated into two subspecies....L. m. blairi and L. m. alterna. It was not until a gravid female was collected that produced both so called "subspecies" within one clutch were they grouped together in one subspecies named L. m. alterna. Since then they have been removed from the Mexicana subspecies as well. I do not agree with this move by taxonomists. Ruthveni are others that should have remained in the Mexicana subspecies in my opinion....but who am I???????
Years ago biologists and taxonomists found this same variation with the once named L. m. leonis then they were later grouped in the L. m. thayeri group. Also at one time L. m. mexicana were grouped with the alterna and thayeri.
Most of our founding stock of Thayeri originated in the state of Nuevo Leon, Mexico...I forget the Mt. range.....
I think to best describe or refer to a snake from the Mexicana subspecies one must use the scientific names of each to avoid any confusion....Oldtimers till call them all grey banded kings. These meer coloquial names should be avoided in my opinion.....
John Lassiter

I didn't know that Ruthveni was reclassified too. So if they are not in the Mexicana subspecies how are they classified now?

Ruthveni is now a species all by itself (Lampropeltis ruthveni).
Some people even think it is a milksnake that is closely related to the Jalisco milk (arcifera) to the west of its range. I have seen Mexicana mexicana from the south of its range (Jalpan area) that have a "milksnake" appearance to them. I always wondered since there was an amelanistic Ruthveni found in the wild or from wild caught parents that there is possibly an amelanistic Mexmex intergrade in the wild.....but I may be just dreaming....LOL
Most Mexicana in our trade were collected by the likes of Louie Porras and others that joined him on his trips down south....
And man I wish I was around then an able to join him......
John Lassiter

...is it also true that L.ruthveni may be the ancestoral "father" to all the mexicana??? I dunno.
Oh and let's not forget, there are solid black variable kings as well!
Also one of the many reasons I like thayeri so much is that you seldom see "ugly" ones. That is, a sort of "mixed bag" look. You know how Cal kings can sometimes look like a combo of the parents?? Like half stripey--half banded or have an overall wash over the pattern??
Thayeri seem to be 100% one way or the other. No mix of the patterns. Obviously something different going on with their genetics.
Also it's interesting to me that when alterna is crossed to thayeri, the thayeri variability shows up immediately in that some of the clutch are milksnake phase.
Another observation is the appearance of "stripes" in any of these snakes. Banded snakes are often candidates for the pattern mutating to some sort of stripe. Mex mex many times have the neck stripe and some continue down the length of the snake farther than others. Completely striped ruthveni are around and some alterna too, but I haven't seen thayeri with much striping?
All just more reason to breed the little guys. It's like Xmas morning when they hatch, huh??
:Mark

I was going thru the old mexicana forum and came across the discussion of the morphs and their locus or origin, etc. I was one of the ones collecting specimens back in 1975 and again in 1980 (legally) and can address what I'm sure many of you know. Thayori live in a wide variety of habitats in highland Nuevo Leon. We found them in pine woodland, in a deforested area near cornfields, and in a tropical canyon heading down toward the east coast. During my second trip in 1980, my friend Bruce Smith and I were unaware of the milk snake morph (to my knowledge, it had not been reported or bred up to then) and you can imagine our shock when we found first a DOR and then a live one zipping at high speed across the road and acting for all the world like a pissed-off version of some weird Micrurus! We caught it using gloves and it took a minute to be sure that it was indeed a kingsnake.

The use of the term "leonis" as a morph is perhaps a little confusing as it is also applicable to specimens from the desert country in Coahuila. Take a look at the photo here of a wild-caught female from a small desert range between Monclova and Saltillo, Coahuila. Note, however, that two other specimens I saw from this locality were entirely different (sorry, no pics).

I've been out of touch in the herping world for many years now so don't know who all's been collecting in Mexico and what research might be underway. Can anyone fill me in on recent work in the wild? Thanks.
Best,
Henry W.

Wow what a great looking snake.

She's one my thayeri produced in 2003. But she is by no means the only nice looking thayeri you'll find here on this forum. John L, Chris B, Dan V, Russ B, Uncloudy, mexicanamak, and a bunch of others here have and are continuing to produce some fantastic variable kingsnakes.

Welcome to the forum.

Here's a picture of her sister

Both snakes are sisters from the same parents same batch of eggs?
(I am not familiar with the proper terms). They look so different. Both magnificent.
Juile

When they hatch out it's like Christmas. You never can tell whats going to come out of those eggs. Yes those two are from the same parents and same clutch. The first one is what we hobbiest refer to as a leonis morph or phase, the second one is what we refer to as a milksnake morph or phase.

Here's a pic of their brother from the same clutch another leonis morph.

Nice one Chris.....
I like the aberrant saddles on him.....He kinda reminds me of one that Tim at Vivid produced last year....Great looking Thayeri....
John Lassiter

Which one are you talking about that Tim produced? I like to see a pic of it.

Thats amazing so many colors from same clutch. I am suprised they arent popular. I go to a pet store that has lots of snakes CA kings,corns,etc but they never carry these types of snakes.
These snakes are colorfull and dont get to big(I prefer snakes like 3 to 4 feet) but yet they never carry them.

This is a pic of one of my 2003 clutches.....The parents were both Leonis phase....The male was an orange leonis from Vivid and the female was an olive colored leonis from MPJ Exotics out of Philly....
Thanks for looking....and you gotta love the variability of these guys....
John Lassiter

LOL LOL LOL I was thinking It would be great if John would post that pic. Thanks John

That is amazing but not sure if thats what you want as a breeder? I would think you would want an idea of what you will get. To me all those snakes are great looking .

The fun is not knowing what will hatch......
One can line breed for generations and pretty much know what will hatch but with Thayeri there will always be a suprise pop up.
The old cliche is....."It is like Xmas in the Summer when Thayeri are hatching."
I can tell you that I lose many hours of sleep when they are hatching.....I just want to see what comes out of the egg next.....I know some of you can relate to this.....LOL
John Lassiter

What vchris said is right. Nuevo Leon, Thayer's and Variable King are all common names that encompass all three of the basic pattern phases which are leonis-narrow banded, milksnake-wide banded and melanistic-all black. And as I'm sure you know the two leonis and milksnake pattern phases can come in many color phases gray, buckskin, orange etc.
The milksnake phase was discovered first and named thayeri and later the narrow banded phase was discovered and named leonis. When it was discovered the two were just pattern variations of the same snake the first name, thayeri took precidence. Later all the subspecies of mexicana namely greeri, mex mex and thayeri were synonomized but in the hobby the names stuck.

Thanks you for all the responses, did does make more sense to me now. The answers did help my understanding.
It's sounds as if the Nuevo Leon is just a locality reference and my Nuevo Leon would just be milksnake phase thayeri.
Is this correct?
I do know it's right to refer to mine as a just thayeri or Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri or variable kingsnake to avoid any confusion. Wow, these thayeri have to be the coolest and most interesting kingsnake for all the morphs and patterns just one individual thayeri inherently has genetically.
Happy Herping,
Uncloudy

It's sounds as if the Nuevo Leon is just a locality reference and my Nuevo Leon would just be milksnake phase thayeri.
Is this correct?

Yes that's correct. Milksnake Nuevo Leon, milksnake Thayer's and milksnake Variable would all be correct.

Hi Chris,

"Milksnake phase" is simply one of two forms or morphs of Lampropeltis Mexicana thayeri. The other form is called Leonis phase (thin saddles).

Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri are known by common names such as Thayer's kingsnake, Variable Kingsnake, and Nuevo Leon Kingsnake, which is a state in Mexico where they live.

Hope this helps. DV

.