Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi Jeremy,
I thought I would bring this back to the top of the stack again. I have no problems with anyone respectfully disagreeing it is an important part of discussion….
I don’t recall the problem of scams and criminals being as large back in the 70’s and 80’s but then again I was just a kid and may not have noticed it as much. I truly think that the internet has not only giving us legitimate breeders a fantastic tool to use but it has also made the scam artists go global with their scams as well. Even as early as in the 80’s to mid 90’s there was no other place to sell your animals other then the local swap meet, pet stores or if you were lucky you had a few specialty reptile shops with in driving distance. Living in south FL I was always lucky in that respect with always having several dealers to barter between, but even then I was happy to get wholesale money for my babies to the tune of $35-40 per head on normal boas, $5 for baby corns, $7 for baby albino corns and a whole $10.00 if you bred snow corns as they were top of the Morphs back then. Oddly those prices on baby snakes have not gone up that much in the past 20 years, but Boa and Ball Python Morphs have reached the level of a second mortgage for one and I think that is a bit crazy.
One other point that you may have misunderstood from my post, I do love money too LOL, or at least what money can do is what I love and I find nothing wrong with breeders selling there offspring at the market rate. In fact if you fail to sell you snakes at market rate you will quickly become accosted by others LOL. Last year I sold my Ghost Boas (which were top bloodlines and stunning) at $1,100.00 each, not realizing that the going market price was $1500.00 each. I had two questions that kept coming up 1) (this one from other Ghost Boa breeders) Why are you selling them so cheap, your hurting the market (I only had 8 to sell) 2) (from buyers) Why are you selling them so cheap, is there something wrong with them!
I couldn’t win for loosing LOL, so this year I will stay closer to market value so the misconception of having low quality animals is not there and not to offend the others! I sell my snakes for extra money to buy new cages for more snakes, take trips to look for snakes and to buy more snakes that I want LOL. It also helps pay for the up keep of my snakes, so the sales are a must to be able to keep them.
What I do have issues with are the numerous people that will want to buy 13 pairs of adult boas, mind suck every bit of information from you that you may have gathered in 25 years of keeping herps and then try to flood the boa market with the babies that you help them produce. These folks normally have been in the hobby for about 2 minutes and show no respect for those who came before them. Those are the ones that I would like to see jump ship with the boa market coming to a level platform. Not guy who got into breeding because the loved the animals and now make some bucks on them as well, that is just good breeding.
I hope this long winded reply did not bore you all too much, I just wanted to clear that up. By the way Jeremy I love those motley boas and am going to have to pick one up in the next season or two.
Thanks
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

I think I am well-informed as to the topic because I am getting insulting emails and guestbook entries from people who don't agree with the price of my boas on a weekly base.

Here is my stance to this topic:

1. Demand and supply are directing the market
2. In both the EU and the U.S. are free countries. Nobody can be forced to buy something.

And yes, I think that Hoppy is right: Scam is exploding when expensive animals are involved. I can not share Jeremy´s opinion that things used to be worse.

And sometimes it's the tax office that is forcing hobbyist into business...
Boa constrictor

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The #1 Boa constrictor site in the world wide web

Thanks for the clarification. I was also a kid, in the 70's and 80's, but I did have a large collection, and it was VERY frustrating finding good info for the Crappy animals I kept buying. I was ripped off a lot, and I know a lot of people did a lot of crap back then too. Just like Today.

The reason I brought up the Money issue is because I think a lot of people are bitter that there is GREAT money in Snakes. I have no idea why. It is like the snakes are being Prostitutes or something!!!! I think there should be a Balance in all things. Also, I have decided recently with the Consultation of my Wife and Family, that I'm going to do the Snakes FULL time starting in the next Month. I will still do my other job but VERY VERY little of it to keep my health insurance. This is kindof Scary, and kindof Exciting to me. So, I'm going to be seen around a little more hanging in the forums!!! LOL Sorry guys for the Long Winds!!!!

Anyway, Hoppy, I appreciate your post, and I agree with it. It can be frustrating to see those people out there that just seem to do it for Greed, but that is EVERY hobby and Business. Heck, I have done a few things that even made me question myself. Last year I had a sick Boa. It just wouldn't get better. Instead of giving it away or spending more on Vet Bills, I felt it was best to "Destroy It" for the better of my collection. I felt bad, and thought I should have tried harder, but I can't afford that risk. That is a TOUGH one for me. Is it ANIMALS? or Money? I think it was both, but I did struggle for awhile.

Also, in the past, I would see a snake or two that had crap in the cage way too long. I thought it was My fault it was not well kept because I have over 1000 animals. It isn't fair to that one or two to sit in crap for a day or two just because I have 1000. NOW, we have a rule with the new Employee's that EVERY CAGE is Opened EVERY DAY. That has made me feel better. LOL!!!!!

I think we are all needed in the business, becasue the business IS US!!!! Sometimes we all don't get along, but we are all needed. This is the BEST hobby/business in the world. IF we all won the lottery, I bet you 95 percent of the people in here would just go have a MASSIVE warehouse with your FAVORITE snakes and Retire!!!!!!!! That is what it is all about!!!! LOL

I hope you didn't take me wrong in my post to you. I just like intelligent Debate. My points are not better then yours, and vice versa.

On another note. I do think that with MORE knowledge the Business will actually be better off. You mentioned your Ghost sales, and how many people you probably ticked off. That is what BUGGGGS me about the snake business. (I'm not saying I haven't been ticked about someone elses prices), but it is pretty immature, and if they don't like it they should just buy them.

I have said this alot, but I do have reasons that will soon come out as to why my Web Page has taken soo long. The new Page will be www.Boaconstrictor.com Since, I am FULL time snake Breeder in the next month, I will have more time to answer a lot of questions. I am in NO way a KNOW it all, but I am going to give out a LOT of very good information that I had to learn the hard way. Many might be mad, but I can't help that. I have come to the decision that the Boa Business will be a LOT better off when more KNOWLEGE and secrets are revealed.

Yes the Market Prices will come down because there will be more with success. However, more will be confident they can do this, and BANG, it BLOWS UP BIG STILL. That is why the Ball Pythons are sooo successful in attracting NEW business. I breed Ball Pythons and Boas. Balls aren't EASIER to breed, they just have a LOT more information out there, and people are more confident with them. I'm going to post some AMAZING statistics on Balls and Boas for the past 4 years on the Web Page. OF COURSE this will ONLY BE MY EXPERIENCE, but it should be fun.

I'm not saying that I have all this knowledge that is going to change the market, I'm just saying, I'm going to share more ideas that will help others not make the same mistakes and loose thousands like I have. Of course there will be those that just need to learn themselves the hard way. There are a TON of great Breeders with great knowlege out there. They have worked so hard to obtain it, I can see why they don't want to share it. That has been my attitude for the last 8 years. I have a change of heart to some extent though.

BEST OF LUCK in the new Age Hoppy. There is something attractive about the good old days though.

Thanks for your Post. Jeremy

That is great that you are going to be able to do snakes full time. I am very happy for you and your family. I look forward to seeing both the animals and information you produce when you have even more time to devote to your snake business. Good luck.
Bill Kirby

I wish you the best of luck in your endevor, and I can't wait to see your new website With how long it is taking you my eyes are going to pop out of my head when I see it right? Just kidding with you.
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Bryan Brown
The Reptile Keeper, Reptile and Inventory tracking software.

Mr Stone,
Good luck with your full time adventure, some day I will do the same but I'm in no hurry. The only thing I fear about doing it full time is I do not want to get burned out and lose interest although I dont see it happening and will all the cool boas you own every litter would be like the first but better. Good luck

-Dylan Keays
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True Redtails

I find myself day dreaming from time to time about that, and I see myself having a "Giant" warehouse full of snakes....and oh yeah, trying to be the best boss ever, no way would I be able to do it myself
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Chris & Alliey
Giantkeeper Reptiles
E-mail Us

Great post the two of you. I am only 16 but I feel that I have learned a lot in my 2 years keeping boas. Those whom I have the most respect for are people who purchase a Boa because they love them and want a pet they can enjoy. Sometimes that person will buy another and have fun with their little BABIES, maybe later they breed them. At this point they have learned a lot in care for the animals, and by selling some offspring are able to offset the expense of keeping their two animal, and maybe make a few bucks. They share their experiences and add to their collection, all the time bettering the hobby they are a part of. Sadly there are many who see $$ and don't care as much about the animals, or the people the affect. These people buy cheap adult boas and try to breed them, usually unsuccesfully because they are in it for the wrong reasons. They did not want to learn about an exotic and interesting animal, but wanted benefits a breeder recieved.

I remember before I bought my first boa, I had two ball pythons for a year. I researched so many different boids, spending all my free time at school on the internet looking up anything that caught my eye. I remember researching Carpet Pythons for months, then decideing nope. I made the decision to purchase an Amazon Tree Boa, I got a hold of a breeder and did so. I loved her dearly, except the biteing, lol, but I did not buy her on impulse I did a full two months of research and had a cage completely set up for her before I even began looking to make my purchase. Later on that summer I bought a large melamine cage and went through the smae routine and purchased a baby female boa constrictor. While I had done research on care I didn't know about the different colors, I found one for $125 and another for $65 both captive bred and born in the U.S. I asked a lot of questions, many of which I knew answers too, I wanted to be sure that the breeder was knowledgable. I ended up paying the extra money and was glad I did. Time went by and my interests grew.

I had found an interest in other boas and wanted to try and breed them. At a show in August of '03 a vendor had a proven pair of Rough Scaled sand boas, I had seen babies before and knew they didn't get large. The female was 24" and the male 18". I had asked for a stup for a sand boa for my B-day in July, and my mom bought it for me. I planned on a Kenyan Sand boa, I liked the Rough Scales but couldn't find information on them. Thankfully the gentleman was very helpful, I met a person looking for a tree boa, I mentioned I had one. I then purchased the Sand boas and the other guy came by that night and bought my tree boa (I wasn't able to handle her as much as I liked). January of '04 came and I had seen no activity in my sand boas toward breeding. I talked in person to a breeder at that month's show and he said it should have happened in the fall. Two weeks later the male began courting the female and May 1st I woke up to a surprise, two little heads poking out of the substrate. I ran down stairs to my mom who was watching TV and eating breakfast, I told her to come upstairs right away. My female sand boa had six babies, all big eight inch babies and no stillborns or slugs. By takeing proper care of my pets, and watching temperatures to be sure they were optimum they rewarded my with baby boas. The show was the next day and I was telling everyone I knew. When they shed I fed them live pinks, all but one took them, the other ate a week later at the second attempt. They ate a small fuzzy by their fifth meal and I took them to the show to sell. I kept a female and sold the others, I traded a pair for a beautiful baby Brown Water Python. If I wasn't already I was hooked! At the time I had my three sand boas, my new python, and an Argentine X Colombian male.

I saved up my money from refereeing soccer and purchased a beautiful male Anery from a law student that was going to graduate school and was afraid he would not have the time to give the animal the attention it deserved. I continued my research as I quickly grew attached to Boas (BTW, my mom never liked snakes, she just saw the good that came from them, I had 107% in Biology). Last summer I was fortunate enough to meet some great breeders through email and purchased a Hypo with a lending of money from my dad (which I later repayed) and the help of Tom and Amanda Burke aquired a pair of 66% het bloods. Thanks to the great people I have met since then I have built a collection of 14 Boa constrictors, and my female sand boa I kept from my litter.

This year I hope to attempt breeding my first Boa constrictors in a very unique and special project, so far exclussive! With careful business and help of breeders I have been able to aqcuire quite a collection.

This hobby does a lot of people a lot of good, those that help others learn are those whom deserve credit that can never be fulfilled. I plan to continue for as long as I am capable!

In addition to knowledge gained in genetics and in exotic wildlife I have been able to attain valueable information in business. One has to study the market of investments to be successful. It is odd, I am often asked if I plan on doing this as a career, or if I am going into genetics, or business. I answer no, I have always wanted to be an engineer and plan to go to school for Aerospace Engineering. This is just a hobby, one I hope to pass on to my own kids one day.

Enjoy everyone,
Christopher
Junior at Upper St. Clair High School, PA

I just want to say thanks to everyone who has helped me. There are too many to list, and I am afraid I will leave someone out. so THANKS!

....I enjoyed reading it. You are certainly way ahead of where I was at 16. Some of the previous posts talked about how the Internet has changed the hobby and you are a good example of that. You have been able to acquire a lot of information and "meet" a lot of experienced people. This was impossible for many of us at your age. However, you deserve great credit for being proactive and doing your research. Your animals will continue to reward you.
gray

n/p

quite a bit ahead of where I was at sixteen. I could only dream that I had it that together as far as the reptiles go at that age. Congrats!!! Keep that fire burning, with your drive and dedication I am positive that you will percevere in all you do.

Good Luck
Bob

n/p

Chris,
Congrates on your success so far. I am glad to know that your Mom has seen the benefits of a teenager with a constructive hobby. The improvements in your grades, the knowledge that you get from reading on a subject that you are truly interested in will stick with you much more then the lessons learned by reading “To Kill a Mocking Bird” LOL. It is great to see a Herper get into the hobby with such a great attitude towards it. Breeding snakes, lizards or for that matter any animal (birds also) is a great hobby for any teen to get into. The hobby has the same benefits for a Teen, in keeping Mom Happy, as it does in a married Adult, keeping the wife happy. The Hobby keeps you busy, normally keeps you at home and out of trouble, you get to meet others with the same interest and you learn as you go.
Great to see you working so hard at it. I can only imagine your excitement when you saw the baby Sand Boas popping their heads out of the sand. Just so you know, that excitement never fades, it stays with you for each litter you produce.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

Thank you for your words. My mom has even become excited about future babies, while she doesn't like snakes she loves the cute little babies!

I have to say, I am impressed with your post. I am fairly new to breeding, but learned as much as I could both from the breeders, who I might add...I respect very much, and also the snakes themselves. I would love to make a living producing boas and ball pythons, to provide for my family.

My thoughts about what the market needs, correlate directly with yours from your post. The more we educate the people in this business/hobby the more people will also be brought in to it. I think the market will have its trends, as supply and demand comes into play, but when hypos are over produced, albinos may be high...then over production of albinos may drop them a little, but hypos may be back up that year.

Maybe the huge breeders can produce huge quantities of all the morphs in one year....but I don't think so. When we are breeding a certain morph, we don't know what is needed and what is not. Some will get lucky and some will not.

If I produced 20 Albinos and sold them for $1000 - $1200 each, that is alot of money for me and my family. I would be extatic. For some that is just like hitting the lottery. I think the thought of it being more a reality for the small guy, is what makes this hobby/business so much fun.

Just remember, these new people comming in to this hobby/business, are the same people that will be buying your Albinos, sunglows etc...that is good reason to be helping unite everyone.

Our organization will also be a whole lot better because of it too.

Just my 2 cents, Andy Federico

Great Post Andy,

I think there really is a HUGE HUGE upside to the Boa Market, and people may take this comment out of context. However, you are right, even us who can produce GREAT numbers aren't going to do that every year. It is IMPOSSIBLE to Mass produce without having HUGE COSTS to keep them healthy to produce consistantly. So with that in mind, most people at that level have a great deal of respect for the Market in general. Even though a smartbusiness man should always maximize his potential every year, it is Irrepsonsible of us Breeders who do this for a living to flood the market.

I don't mean to put myself on a "Big" level but I know I can produce good numbers, and I know many people consider myself as one of the "BIGGER" Boa breeders. I know most of the BIGGER Breeders personally, and even though many all can't get along, I think we all understand the great reponsibilty of what to do to keep us in business. It isn't a BS market, but there is a good deal of responsibilty of the people who can make GOOD numbers to ensure good market prices, or they may be shooting themselves in the FOOT!!!

Even though it is a Hobby, it really is a business, it takes BRAINS to Make money in the snake business. The cause of the Downfall of the market is those who are Herpers that just don't get business, they are the ones who usually put the biggest dent in the market. However, this is the Case in EVERY SINGLE HOBBY OR BUSINESS. Thoese people can't put the industry out of business. ONLY the LAW can.

I hope this makes sense. Jeremy

Something that has been touched on just a little is the legislation that is going on around the country and the fact that we as a group need as many supporter as we can get and the hard thing to deal with is that not all the folks that are into retiles are great representatives or ambassadors for the rest of us but we are a target because of are perceived small numbers and activist will continue to target us until we can stand up to them in great numbers. If we had the numbers of dog enthusiasts we would be fine. The larger this hobby or industry grows the better off we should be but we might have to accept some of the bad with the good. I don't know if most of you realize it or not but their are a lot of folks that are basically in this hobby or industry that are doing it under ground per-say because of laws, regulations or they just don't want to offend anyone. So I have a harder time swallowing this than if someone is getting into it to capitalize on the money aspect. Where I live you have to have a permit and to get a permit first you have to own at least one acre of ground where your reptiles are to be kept and in some towns keeping them are completely restricted. Many times I've read recently in our paper how someone just had all their animals confiscated not because they were being knuckle heads but because somebody that doesn't like reptiles turned them in. Its a shame that so many people have to sneak or hide their love for these wonderful animals because of someone else's fears so the more support we get the better off I think we will be. Thanks for reading Scott Mid Atlantic Morphs

Bill K, I got those Awesome Pictures. Thank you. I'm going to NY for a little relaxation on Tuesday. Any Hints on fun stuff? I'm going to see 2 plays. This is the FIRST time I have ever been. I can't wait.

Also, I'm starting those Bracelets that we see everywhere. The LANCE ARMSTRONG braclets. I'm getting them Made in July. However, I am thinking either IBD research to just CLEAR the Muddy air, or Legislation Lobby Money. I think that is a good way to have a lot of people participate little by little to help presearve Boas, and or maybe the whole Snake Industry.

PLEASE NO EMAILS yet on where to get those Bracelets. I'll give more info in JUNE!!!!!!

I practically have been full time snakes in my Mind for 10 years, and for the past 6 years put in more then 50 hours a week with the snakes, so I could say I have always been. However, eliminating something else that takes time from the business is exciting, and I'm excited to get going further on the Snake Business.

There was a Mention of Burnout by one of the Posts. That was a GREAT POST. I never in a Million years thought I would feel that way. However, last Summer it hit me. I'm sure it hits EVERYONE. However, even if I was offered 10 million to Stay OUT Of snakes, I would be depressed because of what the Snakes have meant to me the past 10 years.

Here is what they have meant to me. I LOVE the Fall. Breeding season is in the air, and the Daytona show has just ended. I LOVE the Winter becasue of Breeding season. The Spring is soo cool because of Baby season, and the Summer is even better for Baby season, and seing all the other breeders pop out stuff we were HOPING to see. Without Snakes, life would be SOOOOO Boring. I would have to take that 10 million and invest in someone elses collection and live Vicariously through them. LOL!!!!!!!!!! Snakes are Top 3 in my Life. Of course Family is NUMBER 1. Number 1 and 1/2 to 2 is personal, and I don't want to be seen as someone trying to establish credibilty through religion. So, Look, it is SUNDAY and I'm posting. LOL!!!! I'm sure you can guess what 1 and 1/2 are.

Take Care everyone, Jeremy

Great Scott ...I think you've got it! Hey...I could not resist saying that..LOL! Anyway, uniteing as a whole will absolutely help all of us. These antis will not stop short.

I think putting out a monthly newsletter, and haveing a membership fee would get this thing rolling. I am hopeing someone out there is also thinking this, as my paper shills are poor at best.

If we had a monthly newsletter for breeders and boa enthusiasts, wouldn't that be a great medium for sharing info around our local areas? I think that would take the personal "scare" out of talking about boas and breeding. You know when people can read a newsletter, they feel its more legit. The outside world will become informed and our breeding and boas would be more readily accepted in general.

Our local newspaper falsely represented the new law regulations here in NY state, and stated that boa constictors were banned. That was incorrect, but everyone I have talked to says boas are illegal...kinda makes you go into hiding anyway. Even a local pet shop said they wish they could sell boas but now they are banned. I had to prove to her they were not banned.

Now I was going to sell some normals in the local classifieds, but not now!

I better get to bed before I start rambling more...night all. Andy

I have talked to many breeders from coulubrids to boas to pythons and more. For the most part when breeding comes up most but not all of the boa breeders are real stingy of the info the'll pass on. I even notice it on here alot when some one has a breeding question i always see look it up in the old archives or use the search button. I've tried useing the search button and that thing sucks IMHO , I can never find what i'm looking for. I feel that boa breeding started as a love with all but for some big and small breeders it has turned to money. When you can get more money from a litter of boas than most people do at a normal job then money has a defenite say in it. Theres nothing wrong with it if you have the passion. I mean who here wouldn't like to own a succesful reptile shop? I would thats my dream some day but like everyone else you have to start small and work your way up. To answer the question i would say both for the most part. Besides breeding keeps the wild population wild , but thats another entire subject. Paul