Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Greetings,
I want to say thanks to all who read this and for any input you may have. I have been keeping snakes for several years now. Mostly in Green and Yellow anacondas. I am interested in owning a venomous species. An Inland Taipan to be exact. I now lack the experience to readily obtain one of these specimens. I have considered a surgically altered one but after reading much on this heavily debated topic I have decided against it. Snakegetters has a different approach to this and that is obtaining a comperable non venomous species. Like a Eastern Coachwhip or Black Racer and a Brown water snake for aggressiveness. What would be a good comperable species to a Inland Taipan. There is no one in my area who I can talk to about them and I very much want some much needed info on learning safe and responsible ownership and Handling techniques for one of these magnificient animals. If someone on here could give me some info as to there experience on them and care that would be most benificial to me as well. Some have said just get one and learn as you go. That is just not a option. Perhaps that may have worked for some and that is great but for me I need to have no room for error. Any advice or even opinions is good as long as it is constructive is welcomed.

Thank You,
Lee

These are awesome snakes in all aspects and you are doing both you and the snake a favor by researching and gaining experience prior too. Any medium to large size, fiesty colubrid will give you experience, but there is always a step to climb when moving to elapids. My best advice is to get some apprenticeships set up with a mentor. As you have mentioned this may require some travel, so maybe you could incorperate it into your holiday plans. I live in a large province where there is no hots allowed, so my only experience comes from volunteering at a herp zoo about 3 hours away.

Hi:

Have a nice sip of reality....

One major problem you will have is obtaining an Inland Taipan or even a Coastal Taipan. Australian has export bans on their wildlife, so they are just not available. Papuians are available from time to time but the others are super rare. They are more commonly found in European collections. I saw some for sale once at around $15,000usd for a pair, keep in mind that you will need to import about $15,000 in Antivenom every 3 years just in case you need it. Some of the toxins are NOT reversable by Antivenom and if you survive a bite you may have paralysis or other neruomuscular deficits to deal with.

Al
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Save a Rattlesnake...Skin a Sweetwater Resident!

Taipans are not beginner hots, and I would venture even many very experienced hot keepers, including cobra and mamba keepers may shy away from keeping taipans, if not for anything else but the absurd cost of antivenin. Black mambas are just as or even more dangerous than taipans (though O. microlepidotus is more toxic drop for drop, D. polylepis venom can act quicker and kill you quicker), as well as presenting a greater handling challenge, but the antivenin is cheap and relatively easy to procure. The taipan AV runs around $1500/per vial, you'd want about 10, and then the shipping from Australia would be a good amount more (at least $500-600). Forget about the high cost of the snakes themselves (I believe Al was referring to Hank Molt, who had a pair for $15,000 on his webpage a while back).

So no, for most individuals, including very experienced keepers, inland taipans are not realistic snakes to set one's heart on.

The last ones I saw offered were $12,000 EACH, I believe. But look at it this way. I would say that you want, at minimum, a year of experience with other dangerous snakes before you try keeping one of these. That's assuming you get to do a LOT of handling the way I did. I was caring for 30 or so vipers, two days a week from the start and slowly worked up to more dangerous things. It might take a lot longer if you only get to work with a few snakes. If you get started working with venomous, I predict two things will happen. 1) You will like working with the less dangerous ones more than you think, and so it won't seem like just "paying your dues" the way it may seem now. 2) 5-10 years from now, when you've got a decent collection going, enough inlands will have made their way into the trade that they will be a fraction of the current price.

You keep mostly anacondas and you want an inland taipan. It just seems a bit off. Certainly someone with enough experience to be dealing with taipans has enough knowledge of herpetoloculture to know about Austalia closing itself off. They should also know a lot more in advance than you seem to suggestyou know about this topic. This is alright because everyone has to learn but the only problem that is still floating in my head is that keeping anacondas really isnt a light matter itself. To me they are not a snake for someone who just wants dangerous animals. This is just my unprofessional opinion and I am just trying to make the pieces fit together. Someone just wanting dangerous animals would not be looking for an animal that behaves liek a taipan either. Are the snakes ment to scare people or something? I do not mean any disrespect but I am confused and the fact that anacondas were mentioned forced me to reply to the post because I just can't help digging deeper into the heads of fellow anaconda lovers.

Perhaps I can shed some light on this for you. I am 36 years old my impressing friends was left behind many years ago. I keep Anacondas simply because I love them. No one that I know even knows that I keep reptiles. Except for my closest friends and Girlfriend. I keep them also because it is easier for me to maintain one specific species rather than 15 different ones. It took me many years of keeping large boids and pythons before my love for Anacondas took over. Then obtaining my first one. A wild caught green. She is as nasty as they can be. I have a 9ft male that I can handle with no problems. I also have a pair of yellows that are not handlable. As far as Inland Taipans I am aware of the import freeze. I would have to look at New Gueina Taipans for keeping. As far as that goes. When I do get into venomous I do not want to keep one just for the sake to have one. There are far too many different one that I could keep.It is something that I research and go where my interest lies. I hate Rattlesnakes and would not keep one just beacuse I could. There are much easier ones to keep and less deadly. I am well aware of the risk you put yourself at when keeping venomous reptiles. If I am going to be at risk of death from a bite it might as well be from something you want.

Sounds like a fair enough answer. You can see how it looked from the beginning post right? Anyway, I am not going to lecture to someone who is a few years my senior but I do hope you have weighed out the idea. In my opinion you should have experience with venomous before getting fast and deadly elapids. Practices are going to be the key things to save you in situations and I do not believe people working with fast moving colubrids will treat them the same as if they are hot. Glad to see you have a love for anacondas. I had an obsession with them when I was 10 and I further built on it in college. Take care.

P.s. Sorry I questioned it but in my opinion there are too many people tating the large boids for granted and I hate when people think of venomous as "stepping up." They are just too big of a risk to not deal with them maturely.

>>I am well aware of the risk you put yourself at when keeping venomous reptiles. If I am going to be at risk of death from a bite it might as well be from something you want.

Don't take this the wrong way, but these two sentences don't make sense together... If you really knew the risk, you would know that your chances of surviving a rattlesnake bite are maybe 99% whereas your chances of surviving a good taipan bite ARE maybe 50%, which is not much different than zero in my mind. Assume that if a taipan bites you, you WILL die. If you don't realize that, you will take too many risks. If you do then it will seriously mess with your head when you first start working with them. That's why you need the experience dealing with lesser snakes and working your way up, so that you will be (correctly) confident that you can work in a situation where you are 1/10 of a second from being dead from a simple mistake. I kept boids (mostly burmese, up to 13 ft) for many years before I started with venomous, the fact that I used hooks with some of my snakes made me a little more dextrous when I started with vipers, but almost nothing to prepare me for elapids...

You WILL make mistakes when you first start, things that have nothing to do with the type snake, and won't enter you mind until they've almost cost you. You may or may not catch yourself the first few times you reach out to grab a snake that is falling off the hook. You may forget and turn your back on an open cage for a second, or leave a roll of paper towels on the floor behind you and trip over it. You WILL open a cage, forgetting that your hooks (you can work dextrously with one hook in each hand right?) are on the other side of the room. It's much better to make these mistakes with something that PROBABLY won't kill you.

I don't like to be negative, and I hate it when people discourage someone who's trying to get started in the hobby, but there is absolutely no question that a taipan should not be your first hot, period. This isn't even close to being a sane idea. No, no, no. Don't do it. Honestly, you probably shouldn't work with ANY hot until you've done enough research on HANDLING (not biology, not husbandry, not natural history) to have figured out for yourself that this is a BAD IDEA(tm).

P.S. Just out of curiosity, why do you "hate" rattlesnakes?

Ok I made that statement for my own reason and that is no one knows what will happen in a venomous bite. Just as some are allergic to bee stings. I could very well die from a bite from a Mangrove snake. My own reasons for a Taipan make sense to me. Some people after having a LTC venomous may become less careful. With something like a Taipan I would think that you will not allow yourself to take some chances that other venomous keepers make take due to the fact that the species they keep are less dangerous. This is not saying that they are not responsible but turn head for a sec for whatever the reason. With a more dangerous snake you would not allow yourself that. I have kept several differnt species of snakes beofre Anacondas it was Aru Amythestine Pythons. Some of a very very aggressive nature. Even with carful handling on my part my 8 foot female got me a few good times. I need to learn to use a hook better. I tend to keep aggressive snakes for a reason. Not because I like to but because I am always reminded of what they are and what will happen if I just go in and grab one of them. That is the same principal that will be applied when I move into venomous. Boids were or are not a stepping stone before venomous that is just what I was exposed to and was started with. My animals are not disposable either. I will not just discard them because I have something new. I have no intentions to ever handle my venomous no matter what it is. Snake handling equipment is made for a reason. I need to learn alot. I still learn today with my non venomous. I will work on handling techniques and work my way up. I will work with racers and coachwhips to gain the hook experience needed to work with any hot. I will not obtain any hot until I can handle any snake on a hook and not be bit for atleast a year. If I do get bite I will keep a log I am either dead or in some major medical expense debt. At that time I will analize and see where I am at. As for Rattlesnakes "hate" is kind of a strong word dislike would be more appropriate. Just as some people hate or dislike ball pythons. I prefer They are just something that I have zero interest in and are something that I would never keep.

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Ok I made that statement for my own reason and that is no one knows what will happen in a venomous bite. Just as some are allergic to bee stings. I could very well die from a bite from a Mangrove snake. My own reasons for a Taipan make sense to me. Some people after having a LTC venomous may become less careful. With something like a Taipan I would think that you will not allow yourself to take some chances that other venomous keepers make take due to the fact that the species they keep are less dangerous. This is not saying that they are not responsible but turn head for a sec for whatever the reason. With a more dangerous snake you would not allow yourself that. I have kept several differnt species of snakes beofre Anacondas it was Aru Amythestine Pythons. Some of a very very aggressive nature. Even with carful handling on my part my 8 foot female got me a few good times. I need to learn to use a hook better. I tend to keep aggressive snakes for a reason. Not because I like to but because I am always reminded of what they are and what will happen if I just go in and grab one of them. That is the same principal that will be applied when I move into venomous. Boids were or are not a stepping stone before venomous that is just what I was exposed to and was started with. My animals are not disposable either. I will not just discard them because I have something new. I have no intentions to ever handle my venomous no matter what it is. Snake handling equipment is made for a reason. I need to learn alot. I still learn today with my non venomous. I will work on handling techniques and work my way up. I will work with racers and coachwhips to gain the hook experience needed to work with any hot. I will not obtain any hot until I can handle any snake on a hook and not be bit for atleast a year. If I do get bite I will keep a log I am either dead or in some major medical expense debt. At that time I will analize and see where I am at. As for Rattlesnakes "hate" is kind of a strong word dislike would be more appropriate. Just as some people hate or dislike ball pythons. I prefer They are just something that I have zero interest in and are something that I would never keep.
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My, my...where to begin...I don't want to sound preachy, or condescending, but your posts really scare me...for one, you obviously do not have an appreciation for how quick and agile these snakes can be. Saying that because you know how extremely venomous and deadly a taipan is will prevent you from making mistakes that other keepers of less venomous snakes might make is utterly ridiculous...you don't have to make a mistake per say to be bitten. Snakes can be capable of some pretty amazing feats when properly motivated, and you surely don't want to be learning what tricks a taipan can pull without having dealt with equally challenging snakes such as mambas, large cobras (African species), etc. A taipan is NOT an entry level hot. Secondly, all humans are prone to error. You might think you won't make a mistake, but trust me, you will. It's how you react to making that mistake that will determine whether you live or die. Secondly, please consider the availability of antivenin. Taipan AV is EXTREMELY expensive, and even if you do recieve it if bitten, it's not guarenteed to reverse all effects, nor save your life. Taipan bites can be rapidly fatal, and unless you have direct access to antivenin, you will most likely die. Please consider that.

Look, it's your life. I don't know your experience level with other snakes (saw mentions of boids and whatnot), but none of that will prepare you for an elapid, much less a taipan. Boids are nothing like elapids, and even training with coachwhips and racers will do little to qualify you to start out with a taipan.

I've said enough, you are an adult and will do what you will do. Please consider your fellow hobbiests when you make your decision, because your possible demise will have lasting repercussions on all of us.

Well..since you seem not to fear the reaper and have some crazy notion you will be able to handle a snake that many professionals shy away from, think about this instead.

What about the other people living in your house or apartment? What if it gets out? Who's going to stop it if it gets you (they have a tendency to bite multiple times in quick succession)and you go down for the count before it's subdued? A Black Mamba keeper in Florida was bitten nine times before he was able to restrain the snake and still is not fully recovered a few years post bite.

All the hobby needs it one escaped snake biting a bystander and they will be banned completely. You may not care if you die by snake envenomation but think about the others around you for a change.

Al
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Save a Rattlesnake...Skin a Sweetwater Resident!

Oh goodness. Another stubborn person who has came here looking for advice only to shun it when it dosent add up to what he wants to hear. Why even come here asking if you dont want to hear what experts have to say?

Check it out, there is no, I repeat, no snake which will perpare you for Oxyuranus! Oxyuranus, Dendroaspis, Naja melanoluca and Ophiohagus are all in a leauge of their own. Even with 20 years experince keeping Naja you are not prepared for this genus! Period! These snakes are unpredictable and insane when they want to be. Their is no training, you just have to know every aspect of elapids, then every aspect of what is known of Taipan behavior. After that, you still have to relize that you will never be in complete control of the situation. Anyone who has ever been in a room with Taipan cage open will tell you, there is no posible way of predicting what the snake will do. Even Scott, one of the most knowledgable people on Taipan husbandry who frequents these forums will tell you that although his snakes are usualy calm, there is always a chance of a bad scale day. When this happens and a Taipan flips out it can only be compared to the genus I mentioned above or any of the other dangerous animals that strike fear into the hearts of men. Yes, I mean like Grizzlies, Great Whites, tigers, oh my! That is the kind of danger you are in if this species goes ape! They are that dangerous.

Last year I visited a good freind who is a very well respected herper worldwide and had the honnor of veiwing his remarkable collection. He has a 7ft female O.s.canni (Pupuan Taipan)which he needed help measureing. We grabed our gental giant tongs, opened the cage and a went to work. This snake fliped out so bad that it took 20 mins of the both of us going tong over tong trying to keep this snake from nailing us (BTW, taipans can wiggle their way out of gental giants! If this were just one person or one set of tongs some one would be dead or in the ICU)Eventualy we got her in a tube, measured and then quickly put her back in her cage so we could finnaly take a breath. We are both in good shape and workout but our hands were acheing and our bodies were trembling. Both of us have been working with Elapids for 5 years plus and could handle almost any Naja with the greatest of confidence. After that encounter we both relized this lone female Taipan had just schooled us. We were made newbes again because we had virtualy no control of that sanke!

If this one specimen could make two seasoned elapid keepers feel like grade school kids again imagine what it would do to somone that has a year of handling coachwhips and racers? If you think that will prepare you, think again!

Please do your homework and then you will relize this species, although not completely out of your grasp, is out of it for many, many years. You have to be experinced to even consider such a step and im sorry but you wont get that in a year of handleing coahwhips.

Good luck in your endevours but please keep them reailistic.

Regards,
Jeremy

I feel that a reply is needed to this statement.

Oh goodness. Another stubborn person who has came here looking for advice only to shun it when it dosent add up to what he wants to hear. Why even come here asking if you dont want to hear what experts have to say?

I do in deed want to hear what the experts say when it pertains to the question asked.Or if they have something too add that is in a positive or helpful way. What I do not want to hear from the experts. Is the kind of bold statement you made to me when you judge someone just from a few paragraphs. I asked that question knowing full well what some of the replys were going to be. How have I shuned any advice. I have been told I have a death wish, I am going to do something and make things worse for all herp keepers. I could go on and on. How is that constructive critisism? When I said that I would keep other fast moving snakes for at least a year, I never said I was going to run right out and buy a Taipan. I know better than ayone on here that I am not ready for one of these snakes. Almost everyone on here has told me that. I only asked how some are keeping them and a safe way to handle them. Then from some I get replys telling me things like that. Is that what I deserve from you experts.For asking what may seem like a ridiculous question. I am human I do and will make mistakes. Hopefully they will not cost me my life. What I wish to keep is what I will work up to weather it take one year or 6. I do not have the luxury of some of the oportunities that many of you had. I have only made a few statements for instance remembering what is was like when you first wandered into dark waters. I wish to learn all I can but I do not see how telling me that I have a death wish or I am just some wanna be who wants to own deadly snakes to impress people. Is of any help. I have in fact taken the all of this with a grain of salt and am in no way bitter. I am dissapointed to get these kind of remarks when I ask a serious question.

Take Care................

Alright, let me try a different approach here:

You seem to have said that you want a taipan, and you don't want to keep any other venomous first (because you have no interest in them). The problem is that there is simply no advice we can give you that will help prepare you for this without having a stong foundation to build on. What you've read about handling racers for practice is a way of learning the difference between vipers and elapids, say when you're comfortable with large rattlesnakes and ready to move to your first cobra. Noone ever intended it as a way to prepare someone who hasn't worked with venomous, let alone to move straight into the thermonuclear option.

When you say that some people have suggested just getting one and learning as you go, I seriously doubt they were thinking taipans. If they were, I would certainly make a note of who said that and ignore anything they say in the future.

We can give you all kinds of advice on how to start with your first copperhead, and if that's what you want to do, restate the question and you'll get much better responses. Then either find somone to work with for a year or more working your way up the scale, or much longer on your own, asking questions here as you work up. By the time you're anywhere near being ready, you'll already know the answers to your original questions.

Either way, the first step is to spend some time on the main venomous forum here reading the advice (and arguments much worse than this one) given to other people looking to get started, then post a message there saying where you live (I don't think you've mentioned that, but I might have missed it) and asking if there's anyone in the area you can work with.

If neither of those options works for you, the best advice we can give you is, stick with the anacondas. You didn't get much constructive advice because there simply isn't any to be had. You might as well have asked how to make nitroglycerin...

Hi Lee,

If you don't mind I would just like to make a couple of brief comments on your post.
Firstly, Parademansia microlepidota is not a "Taipan" in my opinion. Although there are a few similarities between them and scutellatus, there are greater differences between the two species than most who profess to be experts on "taipans" would like to accept. One of these differences relates to behaviour, and this is relevant in your case because some responses to your query emphasized the purported aggressiveness of microlepidota. The fact is that this species - when kept under suitable captive conditions - is not at all in any way aggressive in comparison to Oxyuranus scutellatus. In effect, they can become very placid snakes for the most part when kept, although they, like all snakes really, can get a little frisky when feeding or breeding as I am sure you would know already. Even when first captured, really they are a piece of cake to handle compared to a wild scutellatus. That said, please don't think that this endorses a notion that there is a low risk attached to keeping an "Inland". I believe that the risk from this species' venom toxicity is up there with Russian Roulette as a life-style choice. Risk is just not only about how "aggressive" a species may be. Bites from any Elapid may occur as a result of behaviour that is quite non-aggressive as well as aggressive. As another has said, keeping Elapids can be quite a different experience to that found with other families of snakes. I think that overall many of the larger Elapids seem to me to have more highly developed responses to stimuli than the Boids or even the Colubrids possess. Indeed, they can be so alert (ie aware) that they may instantly seize upon any opportunity to escape or even bite should the circumstances allow it. Hence, a keeper of Elapids like Dendroaspis, Oxyuranus and Parademansia really has to keep their wits about them if they want to avoid a costly mistake like an agonizing premature death. There really is no substitute for experience with Elapids if you want to hone your skills with those on the top shelf I think. Also given where you live, you are unlikely to be in position to acquire the kind of medical intervention that will be required to save your life should a bite occur anyway. This adds yet another layer of unacceptable risk to the venture. It's bad enough for keepers here in Australia with antivenom virtually around the corner so to speak, because this species is just so toxic that anyone bitten faces an enormous risk of death. And I wont go into the added risk from simple medical incompetence which seems to be spreading faster than an incoming asteroid no matter where you live.
Having also looked after Anacondas as well as microlepidota in the past, I must say that the risks are all relative. But as for me, well if I had a choice between risking relatively quick suffocation from a big fella, and the risk of an agonizing protracted death while choking in my own blood while my brain turned to jelly...well I think chasing women would be a lot safer...Anyway, whatever you decide, good luck and if you are ever down this way stop by and we'll organize a field trip to show you microlepidota in the wild. To see them in their natural habitat even for a moment is unforgetable and much more rewarding than having them for years in a cage anyway.

Richard Wells

envirodata@yahoo.com.au

It seems as though I have ruffled some feathers here. I would like to thank all that contributed to this. I respect everyone's opinion on here. Deciding to move into Venomous species was not an easy matter. If you ask some venomous keepers they will tell no venomous is the best first. Well if we all took that advice no would be keeping them. I think that some on here have forgotten where they once started and what it was like to enter into this unknown. My first priority is saftey. With any of my species. I have 2 small children and my saftey towards them is the most next is mine and last is the community. I am well aware of the press and what it will do if they ever found out about a mistake. Those bottom feeders expoite any thing and take it to the extreme often with out the facts. I am also aware of what that damage always causes to our community. I am also going to say that I have no death wish nor am I macho or anything else I have read here lately.I just have a keener interest in something that others do not is all. I also have regards to the chance of it escaping and hurting someone else thoses things have all been considered. I sure I have left something out but for the most it has been well thought through. I also do not think that Anacondas or other boids can prepare you for fast moving elapids. I am doing my homework and am willing to do what it takes to make sure of saftey starting with my own. I do not feel that you will ever for that matter need to touch a venomous. As stated before locking hide boxes are there for a reason. I have seen not more than a 30 minute drive away someone keep rattlesnakes in an apartment with screen lids. In my opinion that is irresponsible keeping and an accident waiting to happen. I need to work with someone however there is no one that I know. I'm sure there are some but they like most of us keep quiet as to not bring in any unesessary attention. Until then I will gain what I can from here. Hopefully someone will give me insight to helping me persue the training that needs to be done. In any species for that matter.

I for one will not be on my soap box telling you what species to like or dislike. Keep or not keep.
The only thing I will address is your statement that everything has been well thought out.
Access to Australian anti-venom is extremely limited in the U.S.
If a bite did occur, you would require antivenom. If you are anywhere close to us, unfortunately, we would be the source for that antivenom. The one point I feel you have not thought out is this... What about MY safety? You use my Serum or one of 2-3 other options for said sera in the States, you are now potentially killing me the event of me being bitten shortly thereafter!
All the other regions generally have a large supply of AV available throughout the US (even though you shouldn't use someone elses serum) But AU.antivenoms are very hard to come by here in the States. Also, keep in mind that if Taipan Sera can not be delivered within a short couple of hours, permanent effects and/or death is all but assured.
Choose wisely, spend all that money on a trip to see Mr. Wells and wild Inlands! Instead of an ugly cribo with fangs. haha

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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

>>Firstly, Parademansia microlepidota is not a "Taipan" in my opinion. Although there are a few similarities between them and scutellatus, there are greater differences between the two species than most who profess to be experts on "taipans" would like to accept.

Some of us here have a pretty good handle on the differences you're referencing. What you missed is that after his first post saying he was only interested in an "inland Taipan" and several responses saying he wouldn't find one he replied that he already knew he couldn't get an Austrailian one and would have to get one of the "New Gueina Taipans", thus adding to the general feeling that he hasn't done as much research as he suggests.

Apolito, in case it hasn't been spelled out yet, the "Inland Taipan" (microlepidotus) comes only from mainland Australia. The Papua New Gueina Taipan (scutulatus) is somewhat less toxic, but generally even more dangerous to work with because of its behavior...

"Apolito, in case it hasn't been spelled out yet, the "Inland Taipan" (microlepidotus) comes only from mainland Australia. The Papua New Gueina Taipan (scutulatus) is somewhat less toxic, but generally even more dangerous to work with because of its behavior..."

True, and I would like to add, the average venom yield is far greater in the New Guinea Taipans, and to be perfectly honest, when we are talking about "natures atom bombs" the difference in toxicity is completely irrelevant from a bite of an adult of any of the three!
Without prompt, appropriate antivenom therapy, death is imminent.

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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

The photo here will win no prizes, but it illustrates very nicely any point that could be made about reaction speed in these snakes.

It was an attempt to get a close-up photo of a Papuan taipan's head (through glass). The scales in the upper right hand corner belong to the throat of a Papuan taipan. When I pressed the shutter, the head of the taipan was right in the middle of the picture. After I had pressed the shutter and the mirror went up again (SLR), the head of the snake was also in the middle of the viewfinder. On the photo, the head was out of the picture, as seen. What went wrong?

To be slightly technical, on automatic setting, my flash fires twice: a low intensity flash to measure the amount of light reflected by the subject, which is then used by the camera to determine how much light the flash should give off in the second, definitive flash, which exposes the picture. The important part is that this happens very quickly indeed: so quickly that you or I will only see a single flash, i.e., much less than a tenth of a second.

During that small fraction of a second, the taipan had time to (a) note the first flash, (b) react by jerking its head out of the way before the second flash fired, and (c) replace its head in the original position before the mirror came up again. All that in a time in which we only perceive a single flash of light.

Still think you can outsmart a taipan?

Happy herping,

WW

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WW Home

It's funny you say that. We were contacted for some photos to include in a new book of our PNG and Au. elapids. Head shots of our canni were next to impossible to get. Doing exactly what you said. Push the button and your subject jerking clean out of the picture. Makes a believer even out of believers!
regards,
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

I would think that pic should do it but a picture of a cemetery or coffin will also make him think twice before he gets killed and ruins this hobby for the rest of us.

Dan

You've stated several times how it by using the proper tools like shiftboxes, etc. you can essentially keep the snake without ever having to lay hands on the snake at all. Well, it's a nice thought, and trapboxes are god's gift to elapid keepers, but...what are you gonna do when your taipan gets sick and needs medication? A lot of vets won't see rear-fang snakes, much less one of the deadliest snakes in the world...do you feel you could medicate a very cranky, sick taipan? Would you bet your life on it?

This is something VERY important to consider, because when keeping ANY animal, you must be prepared to provide veterinary care if necessary, meaning either taking it to a vet or treating minor stuff like parasites, mouthrot (bet that would be fun with a taipan) and whatnot at home. So tell me, what would you do when that taipan you plan on getting gets sick? If it's imported, which it most likely will be, it is practically guarenteed to be parasitized, both internally and externally. This will mean you will need to tube it to remove ticks, and then orally medicate it...are you up to this?

If you think you can just find another hot keeper to help you, think again. Even some of the most experienced hot keepers will refuse to work with taipans, so don't count on that avenue.

This is just one of the many things you need to think about when getting any hot snake, much less one on par with a taipan. If you aren't qualified or willing to provide proper veterinary and medical care in the event the snake gets sick, then you shouldn't even consider getting the snake.

Lee,

Straight into the Oxyuranus /Parademansia..... as a first hot....bit like being dumped in the middle of the pacific with a pair of floaties and saying I should be ok.

I gonna make a couple of point to consider...and yeah most have been brought up by others

First off...

limited antivenom..in your home country and as Terry Said...you get nailed and they start out sourcing a/v and you take theirs ....then they are at risk

the cost of a/v, as quoted around 1200 per vial....and you would need around 10 or more......and these are out of date in a couple of years

Speed....these are quick snakes (I keep both Coastals and Inlands)...Coastals are faster than inlands but when you throw in the scent of food both become even more (for lack of a better word) fun.

On temper.....I have a great coastal....really quiet, easy to work with and I have another that is death re-incarnate, as some have said some very experienced herps won't work with them, I know of a keeper here in Australia that took the phone off the hook and removed everyone from the room when dealing with a particular Coastal (this person had one of the largest collection of elapids over here).
I disagree however with Richard on that Inlands usually calm down...2 of my 3 here are just a nasty as any of my Eastern Browns and all are food orientated.

Just on their bite... the type of neurotoxin in the venom I believe is hard to reverse with antivenom. Someone here could probably elaborate on this further.

Trap boxes and tubes don't always work when you need to administer medication....you will need to handle the snake at some point.

Lastly and least importantly the cost of the animals themselves....12 grand for an inland....id rather have 4 albino carpets.

Regards,
Scott Eipper

Funny thing though, but all this tiapan talk has me wanting one !
Can't wait for the next 50 years of experience when I can begin to consider it

Nice pic's to those who posted them

Hi Scott,

"I disagree however with Richard on that Inlands usually calm down...2 of my 3 here are just a nasty as any of my Eastern Browns and all are food orientated."

Yeah, well maybe I should have said SOME calm down...as do SOME Eastern Browns for that matter...but I would never trust any of them because even those less "nasty" as you put it, just seem to be waiting for the right time to have a go, as I am sure you would have found also...

As an aside, another post here reported Steve Irwin actually kissed a microlepidota during one of his "documentaries"...I didn't manage to catch it as I was probably watching The Simpsons but if that was the case, does anyone know if the snake is OK?

But jokes aside (sorry Steve)...I believe this sort of free-handling is extremely unwise, and it could also easily send out the wrong message to those more impressionable that this technique may be safe. Sure, I have no doubt that one can do this sort of thing with highly venomous snakes - particularly in the case of those who are very experienced with a particular snake's behavour - but it is in no way a safe practice and really should be discouraged.

The proliferation of these pseudo-documentary TV side-shows with people jumping on top of crocodiles, wrestling anacondas, kissing komodos and doing just about everything unimaginable to venomous snakes has gone way past its 15 minutes of fame I think.

A similar display of carelessness was shown on television here in Australia last night. Some snakecatcher named "Rex" must have been almost laughed off the planet when he was bitten on the nose by a King Brown Snake - immediately after telling us that it wouldn't bite him on the nose because he didn't smell like a mouse! Perhaps Kingys eat goats instead?

When it comes to TV entertainment I would really like to see reptiles treated with a more professional David Attenborough type approach...instead of the present pathetic pandering to the prejudices of the fearful and ignorance-driven masses....Wow, now I feel much better after that outburst!

Richard Wells

Richard,

My experience with mulgas is that EVERYTHING is a possible meal...I think I remember Brian Bush telling me about one of his that used to eat its own scats....mine around food miss the mouse and grab itself happily chewing away before "working out" that they aren't the mouse.

Incidently was the person bitten from Alice Springs?

Regards,

Scott

Scott,

Yes, I think he was from Alice...if my fading, venom-soaked neurons aren't deceiving me...

King Browns are good feeders alright...but speaking of coprophagy, I've given up eating MacDonalds after seeing another documentary "Super Size Me" ... which is a remarkable feat for me when all things are considered, because I used to devour just about any animal that died at Taronga many years ago due to the low wages...

Ahhhh, I can still taste the delights of such culinary delicacies as Horse d'oeuvre, Avocado with Jellied Sidewinder, Devilled Crab-eater Seal, Carbonnade of Cane Rat, Skewered Thar with a mouse-mornay sauce, sauteed Ostrich, fillet of parrot and of course Penguin a la Grecque. Peter Rankin and I even had a Galapagos Tortoise steak-eating competition after a vandal bashed the tortoise's head in with brick...rather gamey to the palate though - somewhere between shoe-leather and Corned Beef as I recall. I took a few steaks home for later, but my father accidentally had them for breakfast and subsequently tried to bash our local butcher...

Richard Wells

Lee,

I'm coming into this discussion late ... mainly because while you have been fantasizing and refusing to list to some damn good (and well-intentioned) advice from people who know what they are talking about ... I've been in Papua New Guinea where I actually work with Papuan taipans every day of the week.

My only advice to you, and I base this on what I have just read in all your various rebuttals, is buy funeral cost insurance.

With your attitude and blind refusal to accept any advice other than an unqualified "go for it mate" here is where you can expect to end up ...

... in an intensive care facility on a mechanical ventilator with completely incoagulable blood, irreversible paralysis caused by complete destruction of motor-nerve terminals, pending renal failure ...

... not to mention a haemorrhaging gastro-intestinal tract (looks yummy doesn't it - your kids will love seeing this!)...

... and then perhaps 20 days later, you'll aspirate, develop pneumonia, and die of secondary complications ... that is of course if renal failure (or any of a dozen other problems) didn't kill you first...

Then again one of your own children could easily pay for your pride and foolishness, and end up like this little fellow...

... that would really be something to be proud about!

Incase you are interested, here's some relevant reading:

Papuan taipan envenomation
Snakebite mortality at Port Moresby General Hospital

But don't worry about all that mate, you'll be alright I'm sure; with your obvious experience, foresight and planning (not to mention willingness to accept good advice) you won't have a care in the world.

Good luck

David
Australian Herpetology ONLINE

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David Williams
PNG Snake Venom Research Project
PO Box 168
Port Moresby, NCD, PNG.

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