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The Axanthic

CJBianco Apr 20, 2005 09:59 AM

Here is the info I've gathered so far from various online sources:

1. Three main proven lines (Jolliff, SK, and VPI)
2. Jolliff and SK may "brown out"
3. VPI does not "brown out"
4. Jolliff has the coolio Tiger pattern
5. Axanthic refers to lack of Yellow only
6. All are underrated combination morphs

(I'm still skeptical of point #3...which may directly influence point #6)

(If Axanthic refers to lack of Yellow only, then criticizing the Axanthic because of varying amounts of Brown seems a bit ridiculous. Why criticize something that has nothing to do with the promised genetic trait? In other words...we pay for a morph with no Yellow. We receive a morph with no Yellow...so what are we complaining about? Perhaps people believe Axanthic means Black & White. Yes?)

Anyway...does anyone have experience with all three lines? Am I missing any interesting and/or distinguishing points?

Does anyone have opinions on point #6? What would it take for Axanthics to gain popularity?

Just Curious,
Chris
-----
“Next time don't buy $10K worth of snakes out of the back of a van!” -- Toshamc

Replies (46)

JaredHorenstein Apr 20, 2005 10:24 AM

I agree.............people get confused with this morph.......and you are correct in your assumption. And there are more proven lines i believe.....D&M Reptiles also proved a line last year I think.....they have that kick a$$ Paradox Axanthic.....and NERD may have also proved a line of his own...not sure on that one though.....im still working with 2 neat snakes......hope to prove them both in the next year.

Some pics....

THis is my original B&W ball.......and the ONLY one like this that I have ever seen......she was IVORY WHITE & JET BLACK. She did change colors ( sad but true.... ) but who cares...shes still a wicked snake nonetheless... I am going to be breeding her back to her Pastel Jungle 100% Het B&W son in the 2006 season so fingers crossed...

Here is my unproven Axanthic male.....I will hopefully prove him this coming season...

Here he is with my Ruppel Pastel and a normal female for comparison......he is comprable to the VPI line....

Jared
GOT BALLS?

JaredHorenstein Apr 20, 2005 10:30 AM

Dunno what happened to the pics....here they are again....

B&W Ball.....

Axanthic male....

Jared

OC-Balls Apr 20, 2005 10:47 AM


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0.5 Normal Ball Pythons (Norma, Nova, Nala, Nimeesha, Nyoka)
1.1 Argentine B/W Tegus (Draco and Drucilla)
0.1 Columbian B/W Tegu (Diablo)
1.0 Black Throat Monitor (Razor)
1.0 Desert Tortoise (Tubbs) from Tortoise Rescue
1.0 Boxer (Shadow)
0.1 Feline (CK)
1.0 Memory of my Redtail Boa (Mo) which passed away after 28 years

hermitcore Apr 20, 2005 05:03 PM

Just wondering what you think. He's been in captivity for 10 years now and still looks the same. Here he is with a female normal.

Him in a group shot with some pastels and a spider.

Last but not least a WC guy I'm hoping turns out to be axanthic. Been in my hands for about 6 months now.
Image

nita Apr 20, 2005 09:17 PM

I think that is what an axanthic should look like!! I haven't seen an adult snow that is completely white, you can tell where the pattern is because there is color there. It is a white and Ecru colored snake!! LOL, axanthics are stunning as babies but I don't care for their adult coloration. I do think that mixing them with the pastels makes them look better, should be interesting to see them as super pastel axanthics.
-----
Nita Hamilton
4.13 Normal BP's, 1.0 Het Orange Ghost BP, 1.0 Het Pied 1.0 50% poss Het Orange Ghost BP's

Ballboutique Apr 20, 2005 10:50 AM

The problem with combos.
I think of this......all went for snows and no other morph. And it is a one in 16 shot with double hets!
Something might show up this year that will spring the axanthic.

Also a thought of changing colors. I have had normal babies get darker or get brighter. I have no idea why.

And yea I seen brown axanthic VPI. I have a real dark SK male and his son is much brighter.
-----
RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

macgano Apr 20, 2005 11:36 AM

Here is a close up of a wild caught axanthic next to a normal bp. It has really darkened up with age. I have had this one for 5 years, and he was already well into adult hood. During a shed cycle it seems to change to a "mudd brown" color, then after a shed he is back to black gray and white....

playball Apr 20, 2005 12:16 PM

All strains of Axanthic are way underrated!

As demo pointed out, we have not seen the crazy double combos coming up! When these are produced, axanthics will gain in popularity and prices will rise, just like with the Ghost/Hypos.

Double-Hets that are and/or will be breeding shortly that I know of ;

- True Ghost (Double Homozygous Ghost/Axanthic) Bright Silver ball!!!
- Caramel Snow (Double Homozygous Xanthic/Axanthic) Purple and white ball !!!
- Lavander Snow (Double Homozygous Lavander/Axanthic) Lavander and white ball !!!!

I'm sure there are more combos, everybody is jumping on the Dom/Co-Dom parade right now! The ever so hard to produce Double-Homos take much more time and patience to create.

ginebig Apr 20, 2005 12:22 PM

Question..............does it, or does it not require yellow to make brown. If so, then a true axanthic should be black and white........yes? No? Curious in Michigan

Quig

Oz Apr 20, 2005 01:16 PM

A true Axanthic is composed of just black and white pigment... but some areas show grey/silver which is simply a mixture of black and white pigment.

So a true Axanthic will have black, white, and grey/silver.

Oz
-----
OZZYBOIDS

Ballboutique Apr 20, 2005 01:19 PM

Question Oz
Does the SK, VPI, and Jolliff show these traits?
-----
RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Oz Apr 20, 2005 01:41 PM

Yes Rick. Especially as babies each line looks silver, black, and white. And I consider each line to be true Axanthic.

Oz
-----
OZZYBOIDS

CJBianco Apr 20, 2005 01:38 PM

Perhaps I'm not grasping your definition of a True Axanthic.

Xanthic means yellow.

So are you saying that the ONLY pigment colors in a Ball Python are black, white, and yellow...and that without the yellow (Axanthic) we are left with only black and white (gray, silver, etc)?

If so, that would mean that the current Axanthic lines STILL have a little yellow left in them (which accounts for the brown) -- not really lacking all yellow pigment, just just having a reduced amount.

Wouldn't that more accurately be called Hypoxanthic?

Chris
-----
“Next time don't buy $10K worth of snakes out of the back of a van!” -- Toshamc

Oz Apr 20, 2005 03:27 PM

The true scientific definition of Xanthic may mean yellow, but in the Ball Python world I think it means yellow AND orange. Keep in mind that many scientific terms in regards to genetics are used incorrectly in the Ball Python world.

Also, the yellow pigment in ball pythons may appear brown or orange depending on the concentration of pigmentation present as well as the presence of non-yellow pigment.

Many of these descriptions were coined by some Joe in a basement and not by any science-based method. These terms such as "co-dom" to describe pastels have become so engrained that they are not going to disappear from the hobby.

So call them whatever you like, but my adult VPI "Axanthic" has NO brown or yellow that I can see. LOL

Okay... I have a headache now. Be cool and have fun with it!
-----
OZZYBOIDS

CJBianco Apr 20, 2005 03:34 PM

Now it all makes sense...in a Ball Python sorta way. =)

Thanks,
Chris
-----
“Next time don't buy $10K worth of snakes out of the back of a van!” -- Toshamc

DN_Chris Apr 20, 2005 05:59 PM

ive been following the axanthic / snow situation for a couple of years with great interest.. just wanted to share a few thoughts / observations with people here.. just my 2 cents worth, id be keen to see other peoples thoughts

The way i see it bp's have essentially 4 colours (from 3 pigments) - yellow 'xan' (eg Axanthic = no yellow), red (anerythristic = no red scientifically i believe?), black (from melanine) and an absense of pigment giving white.

Something a good friend pointed out the other week is that the 'black' isnt actually black at all, its just very very dark brown. A good example would be the fact that if you take loads of random colours, eg different reds yellows whites and browns and mix them (for example in a single snakes scale) you will get what looks like black. Im not too hot on chemistry but im sure melanin ('black pigment') is based around an iodine compound, iodine is brown as a liquid and black when it dries out.. eg painted on paper. Anopther example would be the skin colour of african / caribean / indian people which refer to as black, but i think most would agree is dark brown.. this of course results from more melanin in the skin.

aaanyway I think the above goes some way to explaining how axanthics can have brown - if they still have red, and if melanin can produce a range of browns --> black depending on its concentration... well it kinda makes sense to me.

I must say the comments about hypoaxanthic being a better description for most axanthics is really interesting - especially given the fact that as far as i can see from photos, the snows have all retained some yellow.

The jolliff line snow is gorgeous still i think - quite like the snow boa colouration i think. Ive noticed NERD have a "faded albino" morph listed.. the colouration of which looks strikingly similar to the Jolliff snow, which is interesting - and was confusing to me!

There are proberbly hundreds of genes which could be altered to result in a lack of yellow pigment in a snake, pigmentation pathways are so complex with so many proteins and enzymes at each stage, plenty of room to mess it up (seeing as one gene effectively codes for one protein or one enzyme the way i understand genetics anyway).. so. I would love to see the result of crossing say the SK and VPI line axanthics to produce double recessive for VPI and for SK animals. I believe theyve been proved incompatible in terms of producing axanthics from a het vpi and a het sk (or sk x vpi) which indicates that different genes are involved.

I think this cross would mess up the pathway for the yellow pigment even more - and likely produce a hard and fast ZERO yellow snake... as oposed to the big question mark at the moment as to whether current axanthic lines are actually hypo-xanthic.

Then theres the fact that there seem to be differnt opinions of which snow line is nicest, which stays white (no yellow) for the longest etc.. ive made a sport of checking out any snow pics i can get my hands on and have seen them all. now from photos i think the sk snows and the VPI snows look very similar. i actually think the SK pics look more white than the VPI ones, eg on ralph's site. i have seen the sk axanthics and vpi axanthics in the flesh at various ages and i really cant see much difference either. I wonder if people get the sk line mixed up with the jolliff line axanthics, which i think do look more yellow, even as hatchlings?

Last thing: on the SK site, Dan and Collete mention that the SK line snows do stay white into adulthood with little yellowing, which i would be inclined to agree with from the pics.

I would love to see a bunch of comparison pictures of similarly ages snakes in similar lighting next to each other - snows and axanthics.

sorry for the long post, ive been wanting to share some of these thoughts for a while!

Ballboutique Apr 20, 2005 06:09 PM

Different snows on my site.
I belive they are all babies......
Enjoy
Snow Page

-----
RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

jim_perron Apr 20, 2005 12:26 PM

I think what made the axanthic hot was the albino....and the combined potential for the ever elusive white snake (snow). That was the main focus with that morph.

Then the codom blue eye and black eye came along. In my opinion what happened to the axanthic perfectly correlates with what happend with the codom lucys. As the Lucys came on the scene the market value (demand)for the axanthics dropped......significantly.

I'm projecting....but I think people didn't see the axanthic as a stand alone attractive animal, rather they saw it as a key to the rare snow. When the path became easier to the snow (ie lucys) the need for the ananthic went away.

Albinos on the other hand have stand alone beauty...and possibly have greater potential for crossing with other mutations. What do you cross with the axanthic? In what way will this gene visually inhance another morph when crossed? Let's face it.....it's a black/silver/white snake. Cool....but not a ton you can use it for to create new stunning morphs. You can make black/silver/white versions of other pattern morphs (like a axanthic pied would be cool....or spider). You could add more blushing to it....that would be kinda cool. However, there is too many other exciting options right now with other mutation crosses.

It's one of the reasons the pastel has become such a staple. Bred with anything it immediately inhancing color.

I am certainly not saying I would not want the axanthic gene in my breeding group. However, I have so many other morphs higher on the list that feel can make a larger visual impact.

Just my opinion....
-----
Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

jmartin104 Apr 20, 2005 01:39 PM

I think what made the axanthic hot was the albino....and the combined potential for the ever elusive white snake (snow). That was the main focus with that morph.

I completely concur. If the Axanthics could keep the spectacular look they have as babies into adulthood, I think they would have plenty of potential. But so many (most) look like a normal BP as adults.

Albinos on the other hand have stand alone beauty...and possibly have greater potential for crossing with other mutations.

Right on! I have rather interesting plans with the Albino coming next season. Hopefully, they will "pan" out.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

jim_perron Apr 20, 2005 04:18 PM

On it's own the Axanthic has some potential. There are some choices you can make with the morph as indicated in some of the posts above. The problem is that it is competing against soooo many other morphs that have 5 times the crossing mutation potentional and give you much faster results.

right or wrong.....this makes it less marketable. The market does not lie. Many people have these animals in their inventory and they are not selling well....and it's not because it is a bad animal. It's because.......if someone has 5K to spend there are way better higher potential choices out there to spend it on.

When the axanthic came out there wasn't many morph choices available. The albino came out in 1992....then in 1997 the Pied and Axanthic. THAT's IT! Not much else available.

Now......wow give me a break. The axanthic doesn't even come close to some of the pattern and color morphs out. Not even close.

That all said....one of the great things about ball breeding is different strokes for different folks. There is a color and pattern for everyone. Some people absolutely love working on longer range tougher simple recessive projects. I have a ton of respect for that. There is a lot of personal satisfaction in doing that. These people truely love ballin....; )
-----
Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

jim_perron Apr 20, 2005 04:20 PM

On it's own the Axanthic has some potential. There are some choices you can make with the morph as indicated in some of the posts above. The problem is that it is competing against soooo many other morphs that have 5 times the crossing mutation potential and give you much faster results.

right or wrong.....this makes it less marketable. The market does not lie. Many people have these animals in their inventory and they are not selling well....and it's not because it is a bad animal. It's because.......if someone has 5K to spend there are way better higher potential choices out there to spend it on.

When the axanthic came out there wasn't many morph choices available. The albino came out in 1992....then in 1997 the Pied and Axanthic. THAT's IT! Not much else available.

Now......wow give me a break. The axanthic doesn't even come close to some of the pattern and color morphs out. Not even close.

That all said....one of the great things about ball breeding is different strokes for different folks. There is a color and pattern for everyone. Some people absolutely love working on longer range tougher simple recessive projects. I have a ton of respect for that. There is a lot of personal satisfaction in doing that. These people truely love ballin....; )

-----
Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

Ballboutique Apr 20, 2005 04:29 PM

Well said James!

I like ballin!!!!!!

But you know about fast food......world of instant we need it now!
BTW You want fries with that?
-----
RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

jmartin104 Apr 20, 2005 04:53 PM

but that will change next week. Sorry, I degress.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

jim_perron Apr 21, 2005 07:17 AM

It has gotten too market driven.....quick easy results driven. I would breed balls if they were $50 each. I thing the both of you would as well.

That all said....the Axanthic still doesn't fire me up much. The good news is Rick or Jay may change my mind once something crazy pops out that involves the Axanthic gene. That's what makes this fun.

Good luck to you guys on your projects....
-----
Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

jim_perron Apr 21, 2005 07:11 AM

I have been watching your posts for some time now.....and I believe you do love the animals.

Have a great season
-----
Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

Oz Apr 20, 2005 01:34 PM

So far I think the VPI line is best in terms of maintaining that silver and black look into adulthood. To illustrate my point simply look at the price differences. Also, if you ask the Big breeders who have no stake or claim to either line I think you will find that the majority favors the VPI line. Of course the topic is a touchy one.

Although I must say... Mark Kennedy has an adult Jollif Snow that is all WHITE! That snake is simply awesome!

You really have to see them in person and make up your mind. Go with what you like... in the end that's what counts most. And although I personally chose to work with the VPI line... I think they are all underated/undervalued.

Oz
-----
OZZYBOIDS

Murphinski Apr 20, 2005 03:08 PM

for them to look stunning into adulthood.......

Oz Apr 20, 2005 03:14 PM

That's accomplished through line-breeding as demonstrated by the Pastel and Albino. All though most morphs look better as babies including pieds, caramels, ghosts, albinos, and bubble gums. The adult appearance has not hurt the popularity of these morphs.

I think some more combos will contribute to a gain in popularity in the axanthic... just like what happened to the ghost.
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OZZYBOIDS

jmartin104 Apr 20, 2005 03:22 PM

The adult appearance has not hurt the popularity of these morphs.

I strongly disagree. The market for Axanthics has not been very strong to begin with and I have seen only a few (less than 5) adult axanthics that looked good. I'm not talking about 900 gram sub-adults being passed off as adults. I'm talking about full grown, 1500 gram adults. They just aren't that impressive. And before you get too perturbed, I have an Axanthic project I'm working with now. Why? Because you never know what "could" be and because I like the way the babies look.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Oz Apr 20, 2005 03:34 PM

I think you misunderstood. I meant that the adult appearance of pastels, pieds, ghosts, and caramels are also not as appealing as the babies... yet this factor has not hurt the pied's, caramels, ghost's or pastel's popularity. At least I don't think so.

I agree that the Axanthics darken up and loose that silver look into adulthood and that's a turn-off too many. No argument there... I like em' anyway and value their potential when combined with other morphs.

Oz
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OZZYBOIDS

jmartin104 Apr 20, 2005 03:40 PM

I'm still going to work with them. Lots of potential and you never know.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Murphinski Apr 20, 2005 03:31 PM

And jmo......the Axanthics adulthood appearance has everything to do with it. You name off other morphs as comparison when there is no comparison.......sure, the colors, whether it be a morph or normal, are more striking as a baby compared to adulthood......however....an adult Pied, Albino, Hypo, etc etc does not look like an adult normal. The price for an Axanthic is unjustified for a bp that is a shade different than that of a normal....speaking once into adulthood. Line breeding is not helping....Axanthics STILL brown out.

As far as the combos involving the Axanthic......again jmo....not worth the time invested because the designer/combo morph does not scream WOW!! The Snow....looks like a faded Albino.....the Axanthic Pastel....looks nice NOW, but considering the Axanthic AND Pastel both brown out...the jury is out until it reaches adulthood.

I would not spend the money on any Axanthic line...(except for the Woods' Red Axanthic....it's the only "axanthic" that looks cool into adulthood)......Axanthics are unimpressive.....jmo.

Ballboutique Apr 20, 2005 03:35 PM

Murph!

The Snow....looks like a faded Albino...

Have you seen Brian Sharp's? I did in person!
That is soooooooo white!!!!!!
-----
RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Murphinski Apr 20, 2005 03:40 PM

Nope

Oz Apr 20, 2005 03:39 PM

Do you notice how little yellow is present in a Bumble Bee? Can you imagine an axanthic bumble bee??? I can.... a black & white snake with an awesome pattern.

And not ALL snows look like faded Albinos... that I can attest to for sure. And not ALL Axanthics brown-out... I don't care what line you're talking about.

But I have an Axanthic for sale right now and more on the way so maybe I'm biased... lol.

Anyway, to each his own... I'll just have to humbly disagree.
-----
OZZYBOIDS

Murphinski Apr 20, 2005 03:43 PM

not argueing...not bashing........know a lot of people that like them....say they are the "key" morph...........I will never have one though.

Oz Apr 20, 2005 03:46 PM


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OZZYBOIDS

Ballboutique Apr 20, 2005 03:48 PM

Amen!!!!!!!

I am working with all three lines......
hope to produce a Jolliff axanthic....this year.
-----
RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Murphinski Apr 20, 2005 03:50 PM

nm

Ballboutique Apr 20, 2005 03:31 PM

Oz
got to disagree......pieds look good I mean great anytime after a shed.
-----
RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Oz Apr 20, 2005 03:47 PM

I never said they don't... just that they look better as babies! I love Pieds... they are awesome!
-----
OZZYBOIDS

CJBianco Apr 20, 2005 03:59 PM

I know that when I buy a morph, I buy it strictly for what it will look like as an adult...in other words...for how it will look ten years from now.

Pieds will always have white splotches, Clowns will always have a funky head and stripe, Ghosts will always shed clear, etc...

I can't really justify paying thousands of dollars on a pretty morph (Axanthic) that will turn into a faded Normal. But maybe line-breeding is the answer. I guess we'll see, huh?

Thanks,
Chris
-----
“Next time don't buy $10K worth of snakes out of the back of a van!” -- Toshamc

Murphinski Apr 20, 2005 04:04 PM

well.....my point..

neilm Apr 20, 2005 04:35 PM

That should go without saying. Lol

jim_perron Apr 20, 2005 04:29 PM

I think what made the axanthic hot was the albino....and the combined potential for the ever elusive white snake (snow). That was the main focus with that morph.

Then the codom blue eye and black eye came along. In my opinion what happened to the axanthic perfectly correlates with what happend with the codom lucys. As the Lucys came on the scene the market value (demand)for the axanthics dropped......significantly.

I'm projecting....but I think people didn't see the axanthic as a stand alone attractive animal, rather they saw it as a key to the rare snow. When the path became easier to the snow (ie lucys) the need for the ananthic went away.

Albinos on the other hand have stand alone beauty...and possibly have greater potential for crossing with other mutations. What do you cross with the axanthic? In what way will this gene visually inhance another morph when crossed? Let's face it.....it's a black/silver/white snake. Cool....but not a ton you can use it for to create new stunning morphs. You can make black/silver/white versions of other pattern morphs (like a axanthic pied would be cool....or spider). You could add more blushing to it....that would be kinda cool. However, there is too many other exciting options right now with other mutation crosses.

It's one of the reasons the pastel has become such a staple. Bred with anything it immediately inhancing color.

I am certainly not saying I would not want the axanthic gene in my breeding group. However, I have so many other morphs higher on the list that feel can make a larger visual impact.

On it's own the Axanthic has some potential. There are some choices you can make with the morph as indicated in some of the posts above. The problem is that it is competing against soooo many other morphs that have 5 times the crossing mutation potentional and give you much faster results.

right or wrong.....this makes it less marketable. The market does not lie. Many people have these animals in their inventory and they are not selling well....and it's not because it is a bad animal. It's because.......if someone has 5K to spend there are way better higher potential choices out there to spend it on.

When the axanthic came out there wasn't many morph choices available. The albino came out in 1992....then in 1997 the Pied and Axanthic. THAT's IT! Not much else available.

Now......wow give me a break. The axanthic doesn't even come close to some of the pattern and color morphs out. Not even close.

That all said....one of the great things about ball breeding is different strokes for different folks. There is a color and pattern for everyone. Some people absolutely love working on longer range tougher simple recessive projects. I have a ton of respect for that. There is a lot of personal satisfaction in doing that. These people truely love ballin....; )
-----
Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

bristen Apr 21, 2005 09:05 AM

just a thought, but a true ghost could really boost the axanthics... I'm sorry but I have to concur with what others have said.. the axanthic is not appealing to me as a stand-alone morph.. combos may be what will make it rebound...

potential awesome combos I could see with the axanthics are:
- axanthic spider
- axanthic clown
- axanthic pied
- axanthic bumble bee (as mentionned in this thread)
- true ghost (hypo x axanthic)

Anyways, for me that's just starting out.. axanthics are way down the list.. like way down.. there are way too many other morphs I'd like to get before...

interesting thread!

Bristen.

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