Reptile & Amphibian Forums

To start, thanks for any replies.

I have a 3 foot jungle carpet and a 2 foot coastal carpet. I know that people don't recommend keeping snakes of different types in the same enclosure. But, it is believed that there is very little difference between a coastal and a jungle, besides the obvious - colour. They both come from an area known as the Atheron Tables in Queensland. They both have the exact same temperature/humidity requirements.

So, I was wanting to keep the two together in a 4x2x2' enclosure (i will upgrade in enclosure size as necessary). Both are very docile snakes, with neither ever having even struck at me. They have lived beside each other, for two months, in 18"x9" click clack containers. They seem very curious with each other. They are both excellent feeders. There will be 3 hide boxes supplied for each. Typically, the coastal is a non-arboreal. The jungle is more arboreally enclined. I have everything set up perfectly.

I have 2 problems.

1. I have never introduced 2 snakes to each other. How does the whole situation normally work? Is there a possibility of them becomming violent? If so, how high a possibility? I am scared i will introduce them and they will just curl into an angry, attacking ball together.

2. The size difference. Whilst there isn't a whole lot of difference in length, the girth of the jungle is 1.5 times that of the coastal. I am worried that, if they will 'get along' fine, and live together, that something might happen by accident - like the jungle suffocating the coastal.

Moreover, if i merely introduce the two, in my hands, with 1 person holding each snake, is the jungle likely to try and attack/eat the coastal? I know this may sound stupid, but i'd rather not take any risks.

And, does anybody have any opinions on whether or not my snakes may/may not be able to live together? Why/Why not?

All responses are greatly appreciated.

Please help me... i want my snakes to get along

Cheers.

Aaron.

Why is it that this subject comes up again and again, no matter how many times it is discussed. It seems as though most people who ask this questions already know that they should not be keeping two snakes together in the same enclosure, but are merely looking for some sort of justification or excuse to do it anyway. In my opinion, most people that want to keep their snakes housed together want to do so out of their own desire for convenience rather than any real consideration of the snakes well being. Time and time again this subject has come up, and time and time again numerous reasons have been cited for not housing snakes together. Some of those reasons are as follows: risk of cross-contamination and spread of disease, issues of dominance versus passivity of one snake to the other resulting in unnecessarily increased stress levels for both animals, and the possibility of territoriality between the snakes, which once again increases stress levels which may affect the over-all health of the snake. I'm sure that there are many other reasons not mentioned here, but the point is this...there are more good reasons not to house your snakes together than there are reasons to do it. But more often than not, most people are just going to do what they want irregardless of what is in the best interest of the animals involved.

It's funny you should mention that because this kid is making posts all over the general forum about how mad it makes him that irresponsible people go out and buy snakes without bothering to find out how to care for them. lol

I don't appreciate being referred to as a child, and so, I will thank you to refrain. Secondly, i know that there are many reasons not to house two snakes of differing species together.

The only reason i ask is the sheer fact that the Morelia Spilota Cheynei is considered to be nearly the exact same python as the McDowelli.

People see minimal problems with housing two jungles together, or two coastals, but there has been no research as to whether or not it benefits two snakes to live together. Many have been succesful in keeping herp communities.

Of course, I see problems with placing two snakes of largely differing size in the same enclosure. A corn snake cannot live with a burmese. But the McDowelli and the Cheynei grow to the same length, have the same build as adults, and both yeild non-aggressive temperaments.

At the current time, they are separate. They each have perfect living conditions. I am not some child jeoporadising the wellbeing of an animal, and i will not be taken for one. I am happy for them to live separately if need be. There is no problem with building another enclosure.

It is just that I see many a picture with two or three different snakes of differential kinds, coiled up together, or lazing about together on perches, who seek each other out. I see no problem with this.

I have done my research. Everybody seems quick to cast down housing two snakes together. But, quite frankly, nobody has endeavoured to discover the benefits.

And so, is this because there are none, or is it that we just haven't found any?

First of all, it's obvious that you aren't a day older than fifteen. If you really are older than fifteen, I wouldn't be proud of that because your posts are really immature.

Second, did you even read the previous post? For that matter, did you read your own reply to my post? If you know all the risks of keeping snakes together, then why even bring it up? With that many risks - risks I'm assuming you know about - how could you think there would be some as yet undiscovered benefit to keeping them together?

That much aside, if you did the research you claimed to have done, you'd have seen that aside from possible cannibalism it doesn't make any difference what size the animals are. It doesn't matter what species they are. It doesn't matter if they're from the same #$^%ing clutch - it just doesn't make any difference. You'd have known that. Every board on this site fields this question twice monthy, and every board on this site has it's irritated regulars who are sick of answering this question. There's no good reason for it. They are solitary animals. The only benefit from keeping them together is for the keeper, who gets to save some money, and have more space. You're just angry with me for pointing out your hypocrisy.

I have housed carpets together and its been fine...
I have housed corns together (still am) and they are fine
I house my atb's together and they are fine
Have housed rattlesnakes together and they were fine.
have housed rat snakes together and they are fine

My opinion is if they are healthy do what you want...
People breed snakes all the time...they gotta be together to do that....people read to many care sheets and believe everything they say.. IMO.

That isn't the point. The point is not whether your snakes in particular are OK living with each other. The point is that it could harm your snakes, and that by housing them together you aren't doing everything you can to keep them from harm. It's putting the keeper's frivolous desires first and the snakes' real, everyday needs second.

so is breeding but everyone thinks thats ok to do...they gotta be together for that

That's not the same things as housing them together.

explain that one....how is it not the same?? they have to be together to breed...and they have to stay together until they do breed which can take awhile..my rattlesnakes where together for over a month before they bred.

I'm not sure you really need me to explain why. That's a pretty simple one. But anyway. . .

It isn't the same thing because once they're done breeding you separate them again, i.e. there's only a window of time in which your snakes are exposed to each other. That's important because that's one of only two times of year that a snake won't be stressed by being cooped up in a little space with another (hopefully) non-prey animal. Once that season is over, if they're still together it's back to the stress, which makes the animals less resistant to illness, more likely to go off feed, etc. Breeding can even be considered good for the snakes - some species go off feed in the breeding season because they're too intent on breeding. Meanwhile, keeping them together all year long stresses them all year long, exposes them to each others potential illnesses all year long, if one of them regurgitates you don't know which snake it was unless you happened to get lucky and see it, and on and on and on.

why do you assume that because a animal is together with another animal its stressed? you do what you do i'll do what i do...if what you say is true than snakes that are together would not feed and would all be sick and die...thats far from the case.

I don't post much on this forum much, but I wanted to say something on this subject. I have found accidental cannibalism is common when housing two snakes of the same species together. This often occurs around feeding time even if the animals are seperated during the feeding. I have even seen incidents occur after the snakes were seperated for several hours after a meal. I have found this to be the case with many species including many of the Australian pythons. Thats why I don't keep animals together, regardless of whether they are the same species.
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1.1 Womas, 1.0 Australian Olive Python, 1.0 Centralian Carpet Python, 1.1 Cape York Spotted Pythons, 1.0 Australian Water Python, 1.0 Albino Green Burmese, 1.1 Loxocemus bicolor (New World "Pythons" ), 2.2 Peruvian Red-Tail Boas, 2.1 Hog Island Boas, 0.1 Belem Brazilian Red- Tail Boa, 0.0.1 North American Wood Turtle, 0.0.2 European Pond Turtles, 1.0 Leucistic Alligator Snapper, 0.0.1 FL Red Belly, 0.0.1 Concentric Diamondback Terrapin, 0.0.1 Marine Toad, 1.2 Crested Geckos, 1.0 Yellow Ackie, 1.0 Yellow Bearded Dragon

Even though the points against keeping snakes together are valid, I thought I would share my experience. I currently house my male diamond together with my 3/4 female in the largest reptarium model, 30x30x72 tall. I have modified it extensively with a tree going from top to bottom, a middle level constructed of egg crating with a hidebox on it as well as another perch on the opposite side, and a hide box on the floor of the cage which holds a heat mat underneath. Needless to say, this cage has ample hide spaces for any "solitary" needs they may have. Very rarely do these snakes leave each others side, they almost always will be in the same hidebox or same location in the cage. I have never noticed any negative behavior from them either. As far as the cannibalism goes, any keeper who is moronic enough to feed their animals in proximity to one another needs smacked upside the head. I have never fed my animals in their enclosure so that idea is irrelevant anyways. As far as breeding goes, my female dropped her first clutch of 20 last year so obviously they will breed. I also had two jungles in a large enclosure before I moved to Diamonds and their behavior was identical as well. As far as passing diseases along to each other or anything like that, I think it is a valid point, though it has never happened to me. (Did have mites once though, that was hell) To each his own as long as you use your brain, each camp has valid opinions though, just thought I'd share mine. Thanks.

Thank you for your post Bradh.

I understand the other replies to be per incuriam, and so, thank you for all of your concerns.

Does anybody else have experiences with keeping snakes together? Either good or bad? I just don't appreciate being shot off at by those who have obviously never tried, and are just going by what they have read, or understand, be it supported or not.

Yes, snakes can be display cannibalistic tendencies. But, if fed separately, and kept separate for 24 hours after feeding, this is quite unlikely.

Yes, there is the problem of disease. But if stool samples are taken regularly, and the snakes are cared for properly, there is minimal chance of one, or both, snakes becomming sick.

Yes, there is the dominance issue. But, if both snakes are feeding well, and seek each other out, doesn't this show that they are comfortable with each other?

In the wild, snakes are solitary. But could this not be due to feeding issues? That is, if two snakes were together, they couldn't exactly share food in the same manner that a pride of lions does. Could this not be due to the diverse and harsh conditions faced?

I can see that there are many arguements as to why two snakes should not be kept together. But they can all be avoided with due care.

Nevertheless, I appreciate the replies.
I urge anyone with experience, either good or bad, to write in and tell of their experiences, so that this debate can be had, once and for all, with evidenced arguements.

Yes, when snakes are kept in the same enclosure they are often seen "together" sharing the same corner of the cage, hide box or whatever. I think this is largely due to the fact that any given cage has it's prime locations (optimal temps, security, humidity, etc.). These spaces would be appealing to either of the snakes, whether you put them in the cage independently or together -- NOT because they enjoy each others company. Snakes, for the most part, are solitary creatures. Forcing them to share the best places in the cage will likely amount to one thing; STRESS.
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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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I agree with Will and the other who posted against keeping them together.

Also if you are going to seperate them for 24 hours after feeding I am hoping you are putting them in an appropriate enclosure with heat because after feeding they will need a basking spot.

If you have this 24 hour cage why not just leave one in it and house them seperately?
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Jaremy Douglas

"Yes, there is the problem of disease. But if stool samples are taken regularly, and the snakes are cared for properly, there is minimal chance of one, or both, snakes becomming sick. "

I also have to disagree with this post. The snakes will be sharing a water bowl and will come in contact with each others feces regardless of how well you clean. Even snakes receiving the best care can get sick and if they have a cage mate it amplifies the chances of spreading illness. Also, stress is hard to see in snakes. You may think they are fine but one may be stressed and you will not know it until it stops feeding or becomes ill. I don't understand why some keepers can't understand this instead post pics stating, well I keep mine together and they are fine. How do you know? Because they eat for you? Also, every snake is different and just because one person's snakes can tolerate this doesn't mean yours can. It nay be fine for months and even years but it may lead to trouble. I have to agree with the earlier post that keeping them together only benefits the keeper and that is the botton line. You can't tell me one reason not to keep them seperate that doesn't have to do with your own benefit and not the snakes. It doens't have anything to do with what we've read or heard it has to do with common sense.
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Jaremy Douglas

Feeding them in the same cage is incidental. Snakes maintain their "feed mode" for hours after being fed, and in some cases, a few days. Not to mention that unless you bath your snake, the smell of rat, or whatever you feed them, is on BOTH snakes. There is a picture floating around on the net of a boa constrictor that ate his cagemate, a ball python, after they had been fed. These snakes can still smell the food on each other. If you're stupid enough to risk your snakes lives, go ahead.

I think your question is very well thought out, Aaron, and you obviously are keen on keeping and learning about your snakes. I think it is sad that some responses to your post have a scolding tone. Some people, quite obviously are smug with their sense of superiority. Because they have knowledge and experience, they look down on those seeking to acquire it. Who says these forums are only for those who "have the answer (sic)"? I have been keeping reptiles for 40 years and I am still learning...lots! Keep asking questions, Aaron, and good luck with your project.
"ambiguity is an uncomfortable state, certainty a ridiculous one"