Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why is it that most people here seem so interested in crosses? CAN'T EVERYONE JUST APPRECIATE DIAMONDS FOR WHAT THEY ARE???

Just my 2 cents worth

It is pathetic that such a beautiful animal is becoming slowly integrated... it will get to the stage that there will be no such thing as a pure diamond.

What does everybody think??

Aaron

You are beating a dead horse. They will not stop as long as there is a $ in it. If I had the money I would buy every hybrid and put it down. Just my humble opinion. Fred.

With all due respect, just what are you smoking?

I honestly can't believe you're trying to portray yourself as a serious herpetoculturist on the one hand, and on the other you're advocating killing off healthy, beautiful animals on the basis of their heritage. How dare you serve up that level of short-sighted bigotry and then attempt to hide it behind the yellow-striped skirts of your 'humble opinion'.

Let's see, by your reasoning, let's round up all the mutt dogs and put them down. They obviously have no value or merit and their owners have no right to enjoy them because they're not pure-blooded, yes? How about horses? Let's see, most major breeds of riding horses are related in some fashion to the Arabian horse. It is an accepted practice among horse breeders to infuse Arabian blood to refine and introduce new blood into other breeds. Huh, but wait a second, they're not pure Arabians. By all means, get your shotgun and let's take care of the problem.

Why stop there? Let's deal with the issue of mixed blood humans immediately. That'll only, what, affect nearly all Americans? No problem. After all, Hitler had a great idea with that whole Aryan race thing. Cool beans.

Have I made my point yet? God I hope so. If you want to breed pure diamonds, then I assure you that no one is stopping you. Have you ever stopped to consider just how inbred American carpets are? We take the same original strains and breed them back to each other over and over again. There is no new blood coming in, simply because the source is cut off. I for one believe that there's value in doubling an already severely limited gene pool. I think this value is clearly illustrated in the fact that crosses are nearly always hardier than their diamond parent, and more interestingly patterned and highly colored than the jungle parent. This is what fuels their popularity. You get the best of both worlds in one package.

I wish you the best of luck in breeding pure diamonds if that is your desire. But keep your bloodthirsty hands off *my* animals or you'll likely pull back a bloody stump.

--Jennifer

Well, I don't agree with the killing of crossess.

Pure diamonds are just so far and few between, and i don't want to see them dissolve into a huge heap of hybrids.

I also do not support inbreeding at all. It is wrong and should not occur.

So, it is just the whole notion of the reasoning behind crosses that i disagree with. I think it is wrong for someone to breed two different snakes together just to see the pretty colours/patterns. Afterall, there is a chance of creating really unhealthy snakes if done incorrectly.

Simple answer to the original question.
Producing crosses is easy and most people can manage it.
Producing diamonds is difficult and beyond a lot of keepers.
The results are a few (expensive) diamonds and lots of (cheaper) crosses.

G

Jennifer, Perhaps my post came off hard, but the fact is finding a pure diamond is very hard. Anyone care to tell me who has pure and can trace lineage to prove it. Diamonds are common in australia but they are endangered here in the U.S. and I think it sucks that you have to wonder if a diamond is a diamond instead of knowing it is. I own three diamonds two of them I have no doubt are pure, one I think is. The reason? hybrids, some are back crossed so much you can't tell the difference. Sorry if I offended you but I stand by my earlier post! Fred.

In my opinion diamond/jungle crosses are the most beautiful snakes I have seen. I have never owned reptiles to make money or start a business, I just like having them. I own two "75%" diamonds and they are gorgeous, great animals. There is absolutely nothing from stopping a serious herpetoculturist from breeding only pure diamonds, so why try and impose restrictions on those who love the intergrades? I don't buy the arguments about health of the animal, because intergrades seem to have more robust health. The fact is, most pets nowadays (of any species) are results of some type of cross/inbreeding. There are enough 100% diamonds around for those who want only the pure bred animals, so just enjoy yourself and don't fret about those of us who don't take offense with the intergrade. Here is a picture of my 2 year old male...enjoy!(I hope)

That is an EXQUISITE X!!! ...& good post, too.
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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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I am honored that an accoomplished breeder such as yourself has enjoyed my photo, and gives high marks to my male X. I have enjoyed your website and my all time favorite snake photo is your Hypo Jaguar (that was featured in Reptiles Magazine breeder section). I definitely covet that snake, and I am hoping one day to get one from you, but not until I get better with breeding more mundane projects first. I appreciate your posts on this website, and am especially impressed that you take the time to answer even apparently simple questions. Thanks again for being the professional you are.

No problem! And just for the record, I genuinely meant what I said. That is a beautiful cross.

I thank YOU for your kind words -- much appreciated.
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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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n/p
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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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With all due respect, why is it that so many people think "money" is the primary motivation behind producing crosses/hybrids? This line of reasoning is illogical at best, pathetic at worst. Please tell me who you know that is getting rich producing hybrids? Most DxJ's go for $75-$150 ea!!!! That doesn't strike me as a very profitable business venture.

I can understand the reasoning behind those who are against some of the more extreme X's (such as the Woma x Carpet), ...but seriously folks, we're talking about *Diamonds and *Jungles here. This crossing is not new, and certainly isn't a stretch. The fact is, Coastals and Diamonds naturally interbreed in the wild, and so do Coastals and Jungles. Some recent studies even assert that there is no difference between Coastals and Jungles, so how much of a leap is there in breeding a Diamond to a Jungle? As someone already pointed out, DxJ's are not only healthy, but even more resilient than pure Diamonds.

The lack of "pure" Diamonds for sale in the States has nothing to do with X's, and everything to do with their volatility in and inconsistent breeding record. They are expensive and somewhat risky investments. Considering their utter lack of keeping & breeding success, it would not be difficult to imagine a day when high percentage Diamond X's are our only means of keeping these beautiful snakes in this country. So rather than X's posing a threat to the Diamond population in our hobby, they may be the mechanism of their survival.

Sincerely,
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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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Mr Leary, Don't take this the wrong way I do think highly of your opinion and your track record but would like some elaboration. What is the differance between woma x carpet and diamond x carpet besides diamond x carpet are both morelia. What about chondro carpets both morelia a name we made up not them, I don't disagree that some are strikingly beautiful animals but do we ever draw a line. I also know that my statement about putting them down was over the top but if hybrid vigor is the only chance U.S. diamonds have, then they have none and what you will have left will not be a diamond. Pure diamonds are not an easy python but is that because of them or us, some breeders do very well with them. You used to have diamond photos on your page did you keep them and did you have success with them. This is not an attack by any means, but forums are a place to share thoughts and ideas. Maybe I just have trouble expressing myself,and maybe I should just let the hybrid thing go. But at least I CARE. O.K. tirade over sorry to all who were offended sorry to all who think I'm out of line. God bless the first amendment and have a nice evening. Fred.

Fred,

No offense taken. Discussing these things in a rational manner is good for everyone. And yes, that is the intended purpose of these forums. Unfortunately, most hybrid discussions quickly digress into ugly name-calling/mud-slinging matches (which is why I generally try to avoid them!). I'm glad this threat is going in a more positive direction.

The reason I originally responded to your post was twofold (possibly three). For one, you sited "money" as the primary reason people are producing crosses/hybrids. Secondly, you expressed strong opposition (understatement) to DxJ's; which IMHO are one of the most natural, generally accepted and most established X's in existence. I guess I've encountered so many of these "hybrids for the money" and "anti-DxJ" posts lately, that when I finally read yours I just had to respond. I apologize if I came across too harsh.

There are good arguments both for and against hybrids. It is not my intention to get into all of that here, as it is a long and complex topic. As I stated before, I can understand the reasoning behind those that are against some of the more extreme X's, and I used the Woma x Carpet as an example.

Womas & Carpets, other than being classified as "pythons," have absolutely nothing in common with one another. The differences between them are vast and quite obvious, so I really doubt that I need to make a list of them for anyone in this post. One could argue they are not meant to breed together based upon that alone.

Diamonds & Jungles, on the other hand, are very similar. Not only are they both "Morelia" (as you pointed out), but they are also both "Morelia spilota." Whether or not these are man-made classifications is irrelevant. They look nearly identical (other than pattern), their ranges overlap, they naturally interbreed, and they have perfectly normal hatch rates with healthy (viable) offspring. Again, I went over most of this in my previous post and I don't think it's necessary to spell out all of their similarities.

At the same time, but to a lesser degree, Chondros & Carpets are very similar snakes (much more so than Womas & Carpets). Carpets are semi-arboreal, they are found in similar habitats as Chondros, both have similar head structures, similar granular head scalation, both go thru an ontogenic color change, etc. And yes, there are of course many differences, too. Again, I'm not necessarily arguing that they should be crossed, but I'm not saying they shouldn't either.

Back to the Diamonds:
If pure Diamonds eventually did die out in this country (due to a lack of breeding success) -- I don't know about you, but I'd be more than happy to own an 88% Diamond X as opposed to having none at all. Most of the 88% X's look exactly like pure Diamonds anyway. Who's to say some of the original Diamonds imported into this country years ago didn't have some Coastal blood in them? ...would it matter? And again, stopping people from producing DxJ X's is not going to save the Diamond. They are completey unrelated issues. And whether the poor captive breeding success has to do with something that is physically wrong with the snakes themselves, or something we as breeders are doing wrong, really won't matter if there are none left in captivity.

The breeding success of the Diamond has been very sporadic. A few people have done pretty well with them, but at the same time I could name several reputable breeders/hobbyists that have lost large groups of them. Yes, we had a 2.1 group of adults a few years ago. I sold them before I ever had a change to try and breed them (yeah, that was stupid! ...I greatly miss them). I'll be getting more when I come across the right pair.

Sincerely,

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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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Will, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Part of the problem is as you stated telling an 88%er from pure, does that make a 88% cross a thousand dollar snake or does it make the beautiful pure diamond a hundred dollar animal. I will say that people representing their animals have been very honest and professional, but there will be and are people spending a grand on a cross thinking they are getting a pure and I think that is wrong. I also think that is good money for a cross. Sure would like to know why there are rough scaled pythons coming into american zoo's but we can't get some new pure morelia blood coming in! Speaking of R.S. pythons do we mix whatever carpet blood into their blood just to have something that looks like a rough scale, cause their gene pool is real real shallow. Thanks for the banter and by the way, may I say that you have the most incredible carpets I have ever seen. Keep up the good work and I will leave you with a photo of the object of my infection. Regards, Fred.
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Fred,

As I stated earlier, if we don't agree with each other (and we probably won't), that's ok. We are all entitled to our opinions and I do respect that. I have enjoyed our conversation very much.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what difference would it make if an 88% Diamond X did sell for $1000, or if a pure Diamond sold for $100? Does that seem unfair? Things are only worth what people are willing to pay for them, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I honestly don't see what this has to do with whether or not people should produce X's.

And what if someone does unintentionally sell an 88% Diamond X (which happens to look like a pure Diamond) as a pure Diamond? Now we have an unsuspecting buyer that "thinks" he has a pure Diamond, but in reality it's only an 88% X. And what if he then proceeds to breed this animal to other pure Diamonds and markets the offspring as "pure"? What then??? Is this really going to change the world as we know it? I completely fail to see the significance of this situation -- real or hypothetical. There are more important things in the world to lose sleep over, IMHO. In fact, this reminds me of the old saying, "When a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it fall, ...does it still make a noise?"

Obviously if someone does this sort of thing on purpose and with intention to deceive, I agree that would be wrong -- BUT -- it still wouldn't make a hill of beans difference in the big picture. Life would go on, regardless. There will always be people in this world that do deceptive things, hybrids or no hybrids.

Diamond x Jungle crosses and RS x Carpet crosses are not exactly a fair comparison. There are currently numerous Diamonds & Jungles represented in private collections and zoos all across the country, whereas we have a very small group of RS Pythons represented in a single zoo (at least to my knowledge). Apples and oranges. Besides, I started in on this discussion to somewhat defend the DxJ X's (which are an established hybrid between two very similar snakes), not necessarily defend and/or promote all crosses.

Again, thank you for the kind words and though provoking debate!
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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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Will, good enough hope to chat again sometime. Take care, Fred.

I had posted about this on another thread, but here goes. Is anyone old enough to remember when Burmese started to be crossed with Indians? How many true Indians are still out there? Similiar to Pimbura...but worse. Crossing to just say it was done seems pointless. Some people like designer snakes...I prefer to concentrate on the animal...not what it looks like. "With all due respect, why is it that so many people think "money" is the primary motivation behind producing crosses/hybrids?" Will...we've met at a few shows, I like you and you're a great breeder, but that statement seems a bit odd coming from someone who sells $5-10K crosses. Why not just double the price on a regular carpet when it's pretty? Because money IS the motivation when you make a living from it....and it has to be in that case. Respectfully....