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I have been waiting all day to hear what they found in the sonogram!?! I e-mailed you earlier but I have not heard back. I hope Luna is ok!

Hoping shes going to be fine
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PHEve / Eve

S - I just got in and emailed you back. I had to get Luna home then rush off to MY Dr.'s appt and then food shop – getting low on critter food! lol!.

OK, here's the scoop, well, half the scoop. Unfortunately, my vet had already left when I went back to pick her up (grrr…) so I have to call him tomorrow. The other vet, who did not seem well versed in herp care, was who I spoke with. There was no discernable fluid in her abdomen, but she had actually lost weight since Monday. On 4/9 she was 110g, 4/13 126g, 4/18 132g, 4/20 126g and today 120g! She has been peeing so fluid was going in and out. I will see what his thoughts on the fluid retention are tomorrow. They DID see follicles so she is developing eggs, they did not see any enlarged or noticeably unhealthy organs.

The blood test results had a high Ca (21) so they gave her calcitonin (sp?) to lower it. My thinking on that is that when he gave her the Ca shot on 9th, he should have checked blood first. I also wonder if he should have given her the fluids that day. He was going by what I had said (that she was probably gravid) but wouldn’t it have been prudent for him to suggest checking her Ca level first? I had suggested the sub-q fluids b/c of her excessive thirst, but maybe it was not a good ide – hey, I’m not the vet. Could that $180 visit been part of this trouble?

I am thinking of maybe having her Ca checked 3 or 4x over the next year just to see what it is doing – is that a good (or bad) idea? I certainly will not give her any NCg or have him inject without one. I also am wondering if the joint stuff is hypercalcemia! Her grip is great but she has lost a lot of use of her back legs. She cannot hold her back end up, thus the branch hugging and then the hanging to get comfortable. I am hoping she will recover from it.
Luna has always had rather full limbs and when I went through the first 5-month gravidity in 2003/2004, I am thinking that the distended abdomen was fluid retention long before actual egg development and I think this is the case this time as well. Since I now KNOW this, I will be able to determine things much better in the future. When I look at pics of “normal” chameleons, I am always surprised how skinny their legs are. She is definitely not an ordinary cham

She is still very thirsty but I will just let her drink. I am also going to go back to normal feeding (no Ca dust for a little while) and see what she does. She will be tow in a few weeks so I feel I have gone through all her possible cycles (sure hope so!!) and that the vet visits will be less frequent and her “symptoms” will make sense.

Ummm…I am sure I left stuff out but that’s it for now. Any thoughts on hypercalcemia or water retention (or anything else) openly accepted!

I really do appreciate you all being here, once again, for Luna & lele’s drama: E
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0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Beardie Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
Chameleon Help & Resource Info

Re: calciton: I wondered before why your vet hadn't mentioned
trying this with Luna's broken leg problems....but I thought
maybe it was because she's female and it might
cause problems with the eggs/calcium balance. Several years
ago, to draw the calcium back into the bones of a beardie that
had MBD my vet used a series of calcium shots given over several
weeks followed by a shot of calcitonin (a hormone) once the
calcium levels in the blood were high enough. You HAVE to have
the series of calcium shots first to build up the
calcium levels in the blood because the calcitonin pulls
the calcium from the blood and puts it into the bones.
From what I have read, using the calcitonin without first giving
the calcium shots will almost certainly kill the chameleon
because too much calcium would be pulled from the blood,
leaving the chameleon's blood calcium deficient.
Once the calcitonin shot is given the calcium is put back into
the bones quite quickly. I've never had it done to one of my
chameleons. The beardie was so "flat" that all he could do was
scurry around on his belly on the ground before the treatment...
and after his legs and bones were strong again. You'd never know
he had anything wrong with him...except for the bend in his tail
that must have been a fracture.

Since you found out today that Luna's blood calcium was
high....to me it makes perfect sense to have had the calcitonin.
Her high blood calcium level today may be a blessing in disguise.
I hope that you will be pleasantly surprised with the
results....that it will work for Luna like it did for my
beardie.

Here are some links that talk about calcitonin...
http://www.chameleonjournals.com/vet/index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
" Calcitonin DECREASES blood calcium ion concentration. It works very
quickly, within minutes. Consider it the opposite of Parathyroid
Hormone".

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/dvms/mbd.html
"Calcitonin salmon, a synthetic hormone derived from fish, is an
excellent addition to therapy for juvenile MBD herps. This is an
injectable medication. I will usually treat the herp with calcium, by
injection or orally, for three days prior to commencing treatment with
calcitonin salmon. Inquestionable cases, it may be safest to run a blood
calcium level prior to instituting calcitonin therapy. This drug is
extremely beneficial in speeding the recovery of juvenile MBD herps. The
action of calcitonin is to pull calcium out of the bloodstream, and
putting it into bones and other tissues needing it. Its use will greatly
facilitate healing of fractured bones and the strengthening of
weak, calcium-deficient bones. Calcitonin injections may be given every
7 days, for at least two treatments, or longer, if required."

"Many publications have issued strong warnings about the possible
dangers of using calcitonin in the treatment of juvenile MBD because if
it is given without first pre-treating with calcium for several days (or
until the blood calcium level has normalized), it can result in
seizures, collapse or death. However I have used calcitonin in many,
many herps (and other species, such as marmosets, tamarins, cougars and
bobcats) with no adverse effects. The key is to make sure that
the animal has received adequate calcium supplementation for an adequate
length of time, so that once the calcitonin is given and it begins
drawing calcium out of the bloodstream and into bone, this will not
precipitate a hypocalcemic crisis."

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Xth2KsovIBQJ:www.veterinaria.uchile.cl/publicacion/congresoxi/prafesional/exo/19.doc calcitonin AND lizard&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
" Pathologic fractures from metabolic bone disease seem to heal much
more quickly following correction of the hypocalcemia (6-8 wk) and
treatment with synthetic salmon calcitonin. "

http://www.adcham.com/html/veterinary/mbd-fractures-kramer.html

I hope with all the problems you've been having with MBD with Luna that
you will have better "luck" with your beardie! They are quite prone to
it too!

It doesn't surprise me that they see follicles.

I'm glad that they didn't see any enlarged or noticeably
unhealthy organs!

I don't know what to say about her back leg problem...except
that IMHO the calcitonin might surprise you and help.

You said that Luna's legs were always hefty...I believe that is
another sign of MBD. I know that with iguanas and water dragons
it is.

More later...

Well, he did give her a shot of calcium on the 9th but not sure if it was with the intent to get it high enough for this treatment. But, as you said, maybe it is a good thing. I will take her out for sun later (if it warms up) and let her walk around for a bit to see how she is doing.

I had read the chamjournals article (d3/calcium) but sort of breezed over the calcitonin reference b/c it seemed to be discussed re: Calcitonin has its greatest effect upon young, rapidly growing animals. so I did not think it applied.

I had also read the AdCham article several times, but not lately since I attributed her MBD to the egg development and followed the course of treatment my vet and I had begun with her last year (NCg and injection if needed) I suppose I should have revisited some of this due to her being older and having laid 3 clutches. She is my first and I am sorry that it has been at her expense but I have learned a lot! I think the most baffling is that I had been "doing everything right" - gutload, dust schedule, feeder variety, light, temps, etc. It has also been difficult to find info on unbred females of her age. The available info typically relates to young animals or bred females. Of course, the general process of egg development in females is much the same, but it was her showing signs for so long in advance that has made it hard to determine what is going on; I will go on the assumption that she does this fluid retention long before she is actually close to laying.

I will put on my "Luna" calendar this date re: seeing follicles to the actual lay date which might be helpful in future determination. I think my next research will be on trying to lessen her clutch frequency. You and I had emailed a bit and if you find any other info on doing this feel free to email me directly. I think in particular, I would be looking at lowering temps and day length in the winter months to try and slow her down.

Again, thank you so much for the info!

lele

btw, she ate two crickets this morning
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0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - For now his name is Beardie Boy
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula (no name yet)
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
Chameleon Help & Resource Info