Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is my first clutch ever and I left the eggs with the mother so I am a little worried. Please look at the pics and let me know if everything looks ok. The eggs are 17 days old. The temp on the eggs is 89-90.

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1.8 Ball Python
1.0 50% Het Albino Ball Python
0.1 Columbian Red Tail Boa
1.0 Albino Burm
1.1 Cal Kings
0.0.1 South Carolina Corn

another pic

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1.8 Ball Python
1.0 50% Het Albino Ball Python
0.1 Columbian Red Tail Boa
1.0 Albino Burm
1.1 Cal Kings
0.0.1 South Carolina Corn

pic

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1.8 Ball Python
1.0 50% Het Albino Ball Python
0.1 Columbian Red Tail Boa
1.0 Albino Burm
1.1 Cal Kings
0.0.1 South Carolina Corn

another

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1.8 Ball Python
1.0 50% Het Albino Ball Python
0.1 Columbian Red Tail Boa
1.0 Albino Burm
1.1 Cal Kings
0.0.1 South Carolina Corn

.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I'm not sure if all is OK based on the photos, perhaps a maternal incubation breeder can shed more light. One thing I know is the temps are fine.

I had a conversation yesterday with someone about maternal -vs- incubation. Although I have eggs in an incubator now, I think I'm going to allow the next gravid female to maternally incubate them as an exercise to see what happens.

One of my girls laid on the 13th of this month and she just ate three small rats today. One of the concerns of breeders who practice the use of incubators seems to be getting the female back to weight quickly. If she's sitting on eggs for 60 days, she's not eating. However, if she's not sitting on those eggs, she will more than likely feed.

The more I think about this theory, the more I find holes in it. As we all know, ball pythons fast for periods of time. Who's to say that a female may eat a few times within the 60 days and go on fast. Since I don't know the answer to this question, I'm going to attempt to see if my females who maternally incubate gain enough weight for the next breeding season.

Perhaps those breeders who've already gone through this can shed some additional light on this subject.

Thanks

I read somewhere online (link) that an unexpected clutch was dropped, and the breeder decided to try maternal incubation. He mentioned that she was back up to weight in only three (3) weeks after eating again. That's not too bad at all.

Chris
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“Next time don't buy $10K worth of snakes out of the back of a van!” -- Toshamc

These are my reasons for using an incubator versus just letting the female do it. First I know that the eggs are going to be kept at the right temperature. I know the female is very good at doing it herself but if the temps rise of fall in her cage far enough she might not be able to compensate. Reason number two is if she has a very large clutch there may be too many for her to properly incubate them all. Reason three, if I have an 1800 gram female that lays and incubates herself she will probably get back up to weight before next breeding season but one that doesn't have to incubate has an extra two months that she can grow and lay a bigger clutch for me next year. Reason four, if she has any parisites, that is an extra two months that they will be wasting away at her. Reason five is why not just put them in the incubator and reduce the risks, you can let her incubate but there is nothing to gain from it compared to an incubator. This is just my opinion and I am not an expert on the subject. If anybody can give me one good reason to let the female incubate her own eggs I might try it myself sometime.

"...you can let her incubate but there is nothing to gain from it compared to an incubator."

I disagree. What you gain is the cool experience of watching a female hatch her own clutch! That is a MAJOR part of what my Ball Python fascination is all about -- the complete cycle. I can't wait! =)

Too bad I have to wait a whole year. Ugh. =/

Chris
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“Next time don't buy $10K worth of snakes out of the back of a van!” -- Toshamc

That is obvious. I am just saying I wouldn't be letting the female incubate a 15 egg clutch from a mojave x lesser breeding. I can see doing it for fun with a normal clutch but not using that for all my breeding.

The one good reason for letting mom take care of the eggs is the satisfaction of letting it happen naturally, sucessful or not. I've not had a clutch in years, for lack of trying. As for getting a female back up to weight, my female eats like it's her last meal once she starts up again. There were years when she would skip a season, and years when she would go one after the other. She typically goes 7-9 months out of the year off feed, every year, weather she lays or not. She always gets up to a proper weight by the next season. This may very well be the odd happening. I'm sure some just don't eat as much, but I feed when they are hungry, not on a schedule. If she takes a medium or large rat a week it's OK. If she wants two medium or large rats a week she gets them. I trust her to know what her system requires and it's worked so far. This is only my opinion, and only one pair of snakes out of probably millions out there. Each have their own requirements and most likely no two are the same. Thanks for allowing me the ramble and good luck however you do it.

Quig

This is the only good reason I can see for using a commercial incubator...but a VERY good reason at that. Good job on finding a new reason. =)

(However...I still plan on maternal incubation.)

Chris =)
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“Next time don't buy $10K worth of snakes out of the back of a van!” -- Toshamc

I swear I post that incubators are the way to go hands down and my helix takes a crap on me. I can't believe I blew a fuse in it. I am lucky my incubator is full and any empty space that doesn't have an egg box is filled with water jugs. I am guessing it was off for 3-5 hours and it dropped from 89.1 to 88.2, I think I faired pretty well. Good thing I have a spare.

LOL,just a minor warning eh ? I am glad you had a spare though

Quig

Water jugs in the incubator will save the day when the power fails or even the helix controller. First time I have ever heard about a helix controller failing. Any idea what caused that?

Rob Reiding.

Suggestion
Place a newspaper or an old shirt over her.
Make her feel safe.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Ok let me try to answer some of the questions asked. First I did not mean to use maternal incubation I had to at the time. The eggs were a week earily and on the same day my incubator broke. It took me three days to get another and then I had to get it set up. So I decidied to use mom because she had already been on them for a few days. I mist the tank 3 or 4 times a day. The tank not the eggs. The tank is covered all the time so she don't get stressed out. The temp in the tank stays 89-90. It got up to 92.5 for a day but I got it to come down. The eggs look hard but one of the eggs has a small brown spot on the end of it. Thanks for all your help.
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1.8 Ball Python
1.0 50% Het Albino Ball Python
0.1 Columbian Red Tail Boa
1.0 Albino Burm
1.1 Cal Kings
1.1 Leopard Gecko

It sounds like you are doing the right things and the eggs, from what I can see, look fine. I think the biggest obstacle for you right now is the anticipation and waiting that can drive anyone insane. Just keep doing what you are doing and all should go ok.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

You are right waiting is the hardest part. I look at her twenty times a day. But only 41 more days.
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1.8 Ball Python
1.0 50% Het Albino Ball Python
0.1 Columbian Red Tail Boa
1.0 Albino Burm
1.1 Cal Kings
1.1 Leopard Gecko

.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Every single large breeder, including myself, uses an incubator. Forget all the OBVIOUS REASONS, just that fact alone should be enough to convince you to use one.

If there is a large breeder out there that uses maternal incubation for clutches that are worth thousands of dollars, you've got bigger ba$$s than me. Lol. Or you have more money than you need and don't give a sh&*. There is one last possibility, but I don't want to insult anyone. If you contact me directly, I will be more than happy to do so though. LOL

.... doesn't make it the word of God. Some people breed for more than just seeing how much they can mass produce. To each his own and leave it at that.

Just my opinion.
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Tosha

8.15.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
1.0.0 Angolan Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.3 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

The point is, what's best. An incubator is the best way, and if you were a "Big Breeder", I bet you would use one. Sorry.

Everyone can do what they want, and some people like to think that they are smarter than the "Big Breeders", but common sense says that if the "Big Breeders" that have thousands and thousands invested in snakes are doing it one way, there must be a reason for it.

When I first started, I used maternal incubation for some burm eggs. It was a pain in the A$$ trying to keep up the humidity in the cage. Alot of the eggs lost weight, and some of the babies were alot smaller than the others because of it.

Now I'm sure I have rubbed a few of you the wrong way, but I really am only trying to give good sound advice. Do what you all want, and have fun doing it. Since I want to make money while I'm having fun, I'll be using an incubator. Lol.

for thought.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

So much for THAT theory eh.

Quig

I'm not really sure why I am debating this issue. Both ways will work fine, but if you want better success in the long run, I suggest you use an incubator. There is no way you can tell me that letting a female coil around eggs and try to keep a constant temp for 2 months is best for the animal or eggs. NO F"en WAY!!!!!!

I'll bet that if you did it both ways that the eggs that were incubated would produce bigger babies. Ask any women out there, and if they are telling you the truth, they will tell you...BIGGER IS BETTER. Lol

I will let all you "experts" out there do what you want. I haven't touched my incubators in days. How much have you been messing with your females that have been maternally incubating? Lol. I'll also be sure to tell Bob Clark, Mike Wilbanks,Pete Kahl, Ralph Davis,etc. etc.. etc.. that they might not be doing what's best. I read it on the forum after all. Lol

>>I'm not really sure why I am debating this issue. Both ways will work fine, but if you want better success in the long run, I suggest you use an incubator. There is no way you can tell me that letting a female coil around eggs and try to keep a constant temp for 2 months is best for the animal or eggs. NO F"en WAY!!!!!!

I don't know why you are debating the issue either, if the tubs temps are kept constant than the female isn't working all that hard now is she?

>> I'll bet that if you did it both ways that the eggs that were incubated would produce bigger babies. Ask any women out there, and if they are telling you the truth, they will tell you...BIGGER IS BETTER. Lol

Uh no - bigger is not better, bigger babies are not only much more difficult to push out, but they are also more prone to diabetes. Take this from a woman that has had three and comes from a nice big Irish Catholic family of 12!

>> I will let all you "experts" out there do what you want. I haven't touched my incubators in days. How much have you been messing with your females that have been maternally incubating? Lol. I'll also be sure to tell Bob Clark, Mike Wilbanks,Pete Kahl, Ralph Davis,etc. etc.. etc.. that they might not be doing what's best. I read it on the forum after all. Lol

It's all a control issue. Not what's better, you just contridicted your first statement saying both work fine.

LOL it's not worth debating peopel have their reasons for breeding and incubating, leave it be, it's no "better" to maternally or atrifically incubate.
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Tosha

8.15.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
1.0.0 Angolan Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.3 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

If done right, maternal incubation does work fine, but not better. Then again, I think I could maternally incubate eggs better than some incubators out there. Lol.

Since you have had babies, let me ask you this. If the doc said he could pull your baby out at 1 month and put it in an incubator that could give it EVERYTHING AND MORE that your body could, do you think it would be better for you and your baby? Ofcourse, this would have had to of been done thousands of times with success for you to consider it, just like incubating eggs has. Obviously you would not have any complications and you definately would not be a moody bi%^h to the hubby.Lol I think you would have to say it would be better for you and the baby. Remember, I said everything and more.

Since you added your religion in this, I'm 100% sure that you would never do that, but I think most people will get my point. Listen I'm not sure I would want my wife(if I had one) to do it either. I'm just trying to make a point.

Anyway, I doubt for whatever reason we are going to agree on this, so do what you want. To all others out there, go out and buy a good incubator and enjoy your fat healthy babies. You'll sleep better not worrying about them 24/7, and your female will be eating and getting fat for next year.

Absolutely not - no woman that I know would. I would feel horrible if I did not carry my child. I feel bad for women that aren't able to. There are bonds that are established between mother and baby during those months that no machine could replace, ever, even in a theorectical situation. On top of the fact that a womans body need to go thru the process of having the baby in order for it to lactate and in order to prevent hormonal and other health problems. I guess as a man you wouldn't see that. And if women have been producing lots of perfectly healthy babies for lots of years, why fix something thats not broke?

I'm not saying its not right to use an icubator, but its not the only way. It provides a more controlled atmosphere but thats it.
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Tosha

8.15.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
1.0.0 Angolan Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.3 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

I'm laughing right now because I knew what your response would be. Your totally missing my point though. I give up. I need to go pull some eggs and put them in the incubator. Lol.

Your only point is that "everybody else is doing so, so am I."
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Tosha

8.15.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
1.0.0 Angolan Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.3 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

Wrong again, my experience, and the other "Big Breeders" know what's best. I never do anything because someone else is doing it. I always try to do what's best for me and my animals.

If I did what everyone else does, I would do what most of the big breeders do. I would stay the he%% away from this forum. Lol.

Hey Rick, did Larry let you back in the Maryland show yet?

Funny stuff
"Anyway, I doubt for whatever reason we are going to agree on this, so do what you want. To all others out there, go out and buy a good incubator and enjoy your fat healthy babies. You'll sleep better not worrying about them 24/7, and your female will be eating and getting fat for next year."

I bred a normal feemal 2 years in a row.......so I said give her a year off! Well she would not eat....went off food sad.
I thru in a male....hooked up in less then 30 min.
I went into the cage to get the male two days later. She almost got me!!!! She ate two medium rats. Then she would come out of the cage looking for food.......tell me she was not happy breeding again?
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

If my female axanthic goes this year it will be her third year. I know you can toss the names around all you wish. My females are stay at home moms!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't care how much the animal is worth. No one knows if there are any scares done by pulling their babies. No one knows that ====== big or small breeders. It is NORMAL!!!!!

Do what you wish......
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

I'm not really sure why I am debating this issue. Both ways will work fine, but if you want better success in the long run, I suggest you use an incubator. There is no way you can tell me that letting a female coil around eggs and try to keep a constant temp for 2 months is best for the animal or eggs. NO F"en WAY!!!!!!

Success is measured differently by different people. So, are you saying that 60 days of brooding eggs is more damaging than getting fattened back up so that the female can go through the intense process of breeding, developing and laying eggs year after year?

Tosha, I bet you'd love to hear that from your hubby huh.

I'll bet that if you did it both ways that the eggs that were incubated would produce bigger babies. Ask any women out there, and if they are telling you the truth, they will tell you...BIGGER IS BETTER. Lol

Eggs will be bigger from an incubator? Any proof?

I will let all you "experts" out there do what you want. I haven't touched my incubators in days. How much have you been messing with your females that have been maternally incubating? Lol. I'll also be sure to tell Bob Clark, Mike Wilbanks,Pete Kahl, Ralph Davis,etc. etc.. etc.. that they might not be doing what's best. I read it on the forum after all. Lol

I would expect very little interaction for maternally incubated eggs. What do think needs to be done?

BTW, I use incubators but I'm not close-minded to maternal incubation. In fact, I think it has many excellent qualities.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

The proof is in the pudding, and I've made lots of pudding. Lol. Like I said, you can do what these "experts" say, or you can do what most "experts" I know that do this for a living do. Do any of you do this for a living, like me? If the food on the table depended on your eggs hatching, I'll bet you would use an incubator. Then again, some people are just plain _______. You fill in the blank.

Everytime I search online for maternal incubation info, I see countless people stating that they would RATHER maternally incubate. The reason they do not is usually something about "control" and temperature.

Does Africa have clouds, rain, and a day/night cycle? (I've never been to Africa.) If so, I'm pretty sure that the temperatures in Ghana are not a constant 89 degrees. Which makes me wonder how these animals survived for so long without commercial incubators.

The rack is probably fine enough. In fact, there is probably less temperature fluctuation in my Jason's Jungle & Big Apple Proportional Thermostat combo than there is in the wilds of Africa.

(But again...I've never been to Africa.)

Chris
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“Next time don't buy $10K worth of snakes out of the back of a van!” -- Toshamc

LOL, OK look, nothin' in nature is stable, but that doesn't mean that every clutch layed in the wild has eggs that don't go full term. Wild Balls typically lay eggs during one of two rainy seasons, I'm sure humidity is one reason for that. It's built into their genetic make up Chris. There's a gazillion, OK maybe that's an exageration, wild balls out there or they wouldn't still be importing them by the thousands. After all they, the snakes, were doin' this for eons before the white man decided he could do it better. Why do we have to make an arguement out of natural over incubated hatching? Again, just my opinion.

Quig

I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to argue. I was just trying to give additional perspective on the subject. That's all.

For instance:

Ghana (Accra) Ten Day Forecast: 86-90H/77-79L
Ghana (Tema) Ten Day Forecast: 86-89H/78-79L
Ghana (Kumasi) Ten Day Forecast: 84-88H/70-74L

Togo (Lome) Ten Day Forecast: 87-89H/78-80L

Benin (Cotonou) Ten Day Forecast: 88-90H/80-81L
Benin (Porto-Novo) Ten Day Forecast: 88-90H/80-81L
Benin (Save) Ten Day Forecast: 89-91H/72-75L

Just in case this debate is based on speculation of natural weather conditions, I thought I'd share some current facts. Maybe this will help.

Good Things,
Chris
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“Next time don't buy $10K worth of snakes out of the back of a van!” -- Toshamc

LOL, I think I have that same site saved to my favorites. Since I only have one pair of Balls I actually try to at least average out their temps and humidity to come as close as I can to natural, per seasons. It's a bit of messin' around sometimes, but then I don't have a room full of snakes . In the end it's really up to the individual to go natural or incubate. It just seemed that this string was gettin' as bad as the "Genitics" string, and that one was makin' me crazy LOL. Sorry if I was gettin' weird, I don't drink coffee, and it's still early here No hard feelings .

Quig

Hard feelings? Never! =)

I agree. I think we would be much better served by hearing techniques and strategies from those who successfully maternally incubate than to start a discussion on whose idea is best.

And I still have a headache.

Chris =)
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“Next time don't buy $10K worth of snakes out of the back of a van!” -- Toshamc

>>I agree. I think we would be much better served by hearing techniques and strategies from those who successfully maternally incubate than to start a discussion on whose idea is best.
>>

Chris - I don't think those wild mama balls are talking!

Lets face it - they produce way more under rocks than what the breeders here do in completely controlled environments!

Incubators are used solely for control. And if you've got 500 clutches of eggs, it's way easier to walk into your walk in incubator (always set at the proper temperature and humidity) and look at all of them at once - sitting there under glass, than to have to pull 500 drawers out, check temps, humidity, spritz them down, deal with the pissed off mama, etc. then go about your day.

Of course someone like me the most clutches I'll ever have is like 5 - piece of cake to look after. And if your thermostat goes out, that mother can use her body to keep those eggs warm, something vermiculite can't.

I think there is a little too much emphasis put on control but thats my opinion. I will probably be picking up an incubator when my girl drops (LOL).
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Tosha

8.15.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
1.0.0 Angolan Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.3 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

Then let's find a wild momma BP and beat it out of her!

I can't wait to watch my first clutch naturally incubated! How cool! (But it would also be smart to keep an artificial incubator on hand...just in case.)

Now send me that CH male...please?

Good Things,
Chris
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“Life sucks. Close your eyes and enjoy it." -- Me

hey I produced this by mom in 2002
not a 100k animal but I let mom do it. I am very comfortable with it.

it is up to you

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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

mom put too much bleach in the wash LOL.

Stunning little animal! I think mom did a great job.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Thanks....I hope he will be a daddy this year.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Don't listen to Rick, he spent all his money on a Corvette and had none left to buy an incubator. Lol.

that was back in 2000.
I will be back this year for some morphs.......
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum