Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If all ya'll more experienced folks could bear with me. I'm sure some of these questions might seem a little silly but I see a wealth of knowledge in here and that's what I'm in need of.

1. When using melamine for enclosures, is there a tape/veneer to use for covering cut edges?
A.In a moderate humidity environment, would it be prudent to go ahead and seal the interior corners with 100% silicone? I'd assume that it's best to do everything possible to keep moisture from getting to the mdf core of that melamine.

2. If plywood is used, what the best poly to seal with and how many coats is standard. How long to off-gas?

....and the one that's probably the silliest question of all.
3. Obviously these types of cages can't be taken out and hosed when cleaning. What do you guys do to rinse cleaning agents out of there? Just damp sponge/rag or something?

I'm sure I'll be posting again. I read in here almost every day and something always sparks a question.

Thanks!
Matt

1. When using melamine for enclosures, is there a tape/veneer to use for covering cut edges?

There is an iron-on edge tape. You can also glue on radiused wood trim, or use a real wood face frame, or even route a groove for T-moulding.

1. In a moderate humidity environment, would it be prudent to go ahead and seal the interior corners with 100% silicone?

Silicone the edges regardless of the conditions. At the very least it's a good place for microbrial growth.

2. If plywood is used, what the best poly to seal with and how many coats is standard. How long to off-gas?

What do you mean by moderate humidity? What species is this for?

Water-based polyurethanes have improved greatly, I even read about it being used in a Water Dragon cage of all things, but I'm not 100% confident with it. Oil-based is more durable but offgassing can take months.

I would use 4 thin coats for the cage interior.

3. Obviously these types of cages can't be taken out and hosed when cleaning. What do you guys do to rinse cleaning agents out of there? Just damp sponge/rag or something?

I try to use chlorhexadine (Nolvasan, Virosan) compounds as much as possible as they don't require as thorough of rinsing as chlorine (bleach). But I still use bleach on occasion and then use a wet rag.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Last night I was bored and decided to do a google search on water-based polyurethanes, particuarly water-based Spar.

It does sounds like these should be great for reptile enclosures. I even found links to boat-builing forums where people have used these water-based Spars on the surfaces of boats that will be under the water line.

So I do believe that a water-based spar should provide more than enough water resistance for a typical reptile enclosure.

However, a spar is not going to be as scuff/abrasion/impact resistant as other urethanes due to its flexible nature.

If you're going to have a lot of rocks or logs on a cage floor it might be best to have a plastic coating on the floor to deal with these issues. Scrap vinyl flooring works well.

Lastly, the Varathane product listed in my reply title is the most commonly available water-based spar. That's what I'd look for if I were shopping locally. It does not have the solids content of other water-based spars but should be good enough.

And more than a few sources listed it as non-toxic, which is good.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

>>I try to use chlorhexadine (Nolvasan, Virosan) compounds as much as possible as they don't require as thorough of rinsing as chlorine (bleach).

This stuff kicks butt I really like using it and have been pleased with the results. Its smells good to!
Jeremy

Also I agree with chris previous comments. I have used the Diamond Spar and have been pleased with it as well, although I keep snakes and just use it for wood fronts. I wonder how it will do in my bearded dragon cages.

Jeremy,

You should try some A33 Dry. Similar mechanism as chlorhexadine but it has a foaming action that makes it a better cleaner. It also is a much better odor neutralizer than chlorhexadine.

I need to order some for myself. When I send the vinyl film up I'll include enough for a gallon of cleaner. You'll love the stuff.

>>I wonder how it (the varathane) will do in my bearded dragon cages.

LOL. My BD cage is sealed with Polycrylic that has nowhere near the solids content of Varathane Diamond Exterior. It's starting to look in need of refinishing three years later. The VDE will last a lot longer.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Chris,
>>
>>You should try some A33 Dry. Similar mechanism as chlorhexadine but it has a foaming action that makes it a better cleaner. It also is a much better odor neutralizer than chlorhexadine.
>>
>>I need to order some for myself. When I send the vinyl film up I'll include enough for a gallon of cleaner. You'll love the stuff.

Cool, I would appriciate it!

>>>>I wonder how it (the varathane) will do in my bearded dragon cages.
>>
>>LOL. My BD cage is sealed with Polycrylic that has nowhere near the solids content of Varathane Diamond Exterior. It's starting to look in need of refinishing three years later. The VDE will last a lot longer.

Kinda retorical comment on my part I'm not expecting it to hold up to the abuse but then again I am just using it for the fronts. Not worried at all if I was I would use an apoxy. Remember throw away cages every 5 years right! LOL

Chris-
Thanks for all that.
This first cage would be for my Trib.
Again, I'm on a mission to make enclosures more appealing, aesthetically, but the ulterior motive being easing other herps into the house by appeasing the wife.
Later enclosures would be for T. Mauritanica, Ptychozoon sp., and smaller boas (kenyan, rubber, etc.).

This possible venture would be the experimental stage of working out what I want, structurally and visually and just figuring things out for future enclosures.

Does a melamine structure have a pretty fair life-span? Is re-construction/ rebuilding an issue with that material?

Thanks again
Matt

>>Does a melamine structure have a pretty fair life-span? Is re-construction/ rebuilding an issue with that material?

I have not had as good of success as others with melamine. I'm willing to attribute some of that to the iodine-based disinfectants I used many years ago. Evidently that stuff does cause a chemical breakdown of the plasticized melamine layer.

Still, my gut reaction is to NOT use it for Tribolonotus, although I do understand that Tribolonotus gracilis is kept much drier than the T. novaeguineae that I kept in the early '90's.

Melamine should be fine for Tarentola ssp. and the smaller boas you mentioned.

Ptychozoon is another one I'm not so sure about. I think I'd want more moisture resistance.

One choice is to still use melamine but laminate a layer of vinyl sign film onto the inside of the cage. I won't go into that in case you've read many of my recent posts about it. But it should make it durable enough for Ptychozoon and Tribolonotus which have the highest moisture requirments of the species you mentioned.

What you use for these cages depends on whether cost or appearance is more important to you. Don't use melamine because you're under the impression it's more durable than plywood. It is, but plywood can be made to be more durable. But if cost is an issue melamine is still a decent way of making an attractive yet somewhat durable enclosure. Since you mentioned experimental it's probably a good choice.

Regardless of what you do, I strongly recommend adding a real wood face frame to your melamine enclosures if you use it. It really adds a nice touch, reduces the sterile look.

And go crazy on the cage decor as planted vivaria go well with all of the species you listed. Even the snakes. And your wife will like it.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Have you seen that storage tote design of mine?

Real simple way to make light, cheap enclosures that still look decent.

And the size is great for all of the species you keep.

I've thought about getting back into smaller terrarium lizards and will probably use that design for them.

There is an all black tote that would look good and could be turned upright or flat depending on the species. There is a post over on the Gree Tree Python forum. Something "An alternative to tubs".
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Thanks again.
I'll take a look at that thread, for sure.

...The 'tub conversion' is a great idea! It spurred, also, an idea for a rack type of unit I could build to house multiple enclosures like this, using drawer slides/etc. to access lighting and stuff.
But I digress...

One question. How did you go about fixing the wire mesh to the top of the tub? melting? epoxy? what's the best method you've come across for that part?

The 'tub conversion' is a great idea!

Thanks. People either love it or hate it. All I can say is that they've worked out to be great enclosures regardless of cost. A shame I can't find a tub big enough for the species I keep now.

It spurred, also, an idea for a rack type of unit I could build to house multiple enclosures like this, using drawer slides/etc. to access lighting and stuff.

Well I always encourage innovation, but don't stray too far from the merits of this system. It's a simple system, I would keep it that way. I think drawers etc. are a great idea, but they might go better with a more normal cabinet quality cage.

What I would do is build ladder-style face frames. In other words, single face frames with three openings and leave enough space between the tubs for lights, etc.

Possibly include flip down fronts between the cages that the lights attach to.

But I digress...

Me too

One question. How did you go about fixing the wire mesh to the top of the tub? melting? epoxy? what's the best method you've come across for that part?

I used to run a research lab that was doing a very large scale quantiative genetic study using insects as a model system. I've been able to experiment A LOT with how to attach screen to plastic.

I like a combination of rivets and hot glue. Rivets and epoxy would also work, in fact probably even better. But hot glue is just so easy.

I don't even want to guess how many pounds of hot glue sticks I went through in that lab...
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Here's a nine-unit version a friend of mine built with the boxes upright. This is the same black box available from Lowes.

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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Sorry Chris had to throw in my view points.

>>Does a melamine structure have a pretty fair life-span?

No, but it depends. An arid enclosure with a snake the melamine would probally last for ever. Lizards destroy melamine however keep in mind I have only housed Iguanids and monitor species. This summer I am jumping headstrong into a bearded dragon project again I will use melamine based on cost not worried about destruction. Also Humid enviroments and large boids such as "Burmese" will destroy melamine in two years. Burms urates usually ruin melamine forever.

Is re-construction/ rebuilding an issue with that material?

Yes, infact if you ask anyone that knows me they will tell you I don't trash anything. Even humidity damaged melamine panels can be turned over and use the otherside. I mean you don't see under the cage right why not reuse. In most of my reused panels the edges were not reusable so the future cages made with this material will be smaller so that may be a consideration. The urate damaged melamine usually can never be used again. Burms urates eat through the entire board damaging both sides.

One note if the core of melamine is water damaged screws and nails won't hold, there has to be solid material.

Good Luck.
Jeremy