Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Our animals were captive born in Costa Rica; however the parents of our breeders were collected on the island of Saboga. We believe these animals along with the babies we have produced to be the only true Boa Constrictor Sabogae in Captivity. The other animals being called “Sabogae” were actually collected on the island of Taboga, which is about 8 miles off the coast of Panama and not even a part of the Pearl Island Chain. Those animals are very similar to, if not the same as the Hypomelanistic animals that come from the mainland of Panama, like the Matriarch Salmon. In fact, during the collection of the animals from Taboga, normal Non-Hypomelanistic animals were also seen on the same island as the other so called “Sabogae.”

With that being said, the Island of Saboga is about 48 miles from Panama City and is nearly 40 miles from the point of collection of the other animals being called Boa Constrictor Sabogae.

It is unclear why some think that the Salmon Boas were created by breeding B.C.I. into Boa Constrictor Sabogae, when there were no Boa Constrictor Sabogae in private collections until just a couple of years ago. This coupled with the fact that there are Salmon Boas in the wild in Panama today leads us to believe that the Salmon Boa did not come from Boa Constrictor Sabogae.

This is the facts as we know and them and if anyone has other information that contradicts this please share what you have so this can be cleared up once and for all. I am sure that this horse is tired of being beaten! Hey look over there it’s a Jungle Boa!

Take Care,
Brandon & Rich

I am glad you posted. Ever since I talked to you last year when you and Rich brought them in from Costa Rica there have been rumers spreading. I am honestly surprised how so many people stick to a belief with no proof or research to back it up, there are things called legitimet sources!

The gentleman that owns the Serpentarium was the only person ever given permission to go to the Pearl Islands and collect Sabogae, also the only one given permission to collect Wild Costa Rican Imperator. He has worked with both, his BCI have been in Europe now for a while, and recently in the U.S. When you and Rich Ihle brought them in they were in herptoculture for the first time.

I wonder how many of these people with alleged claims have even read Rich's Salmon Boa description, or seen pictures of the matriarch.

Thanks for posting,
Christopher

and it would be interesting (also a shame though), to see a colombian x sabogae cross.

The fact is unless some new information comes to light, the origin of the salmon bloodline is an questionable. It is an educated guess at best....

I have purchased snakes from Brandon before, he is super cool. If I were into morphs, I would already be knocking on his door. So, it is nothing personal.

My point is that unless some new information comes up, can't we agree to disagree and drop this whole thing?????

The problem is we are able to distinguish that the founder female was a BCI, by scale count and anatomy. Sabogae are a very anotomically unique subspecies of Boa constrictor. The Panamanian origin is a logical and supportable assumtion, but not proof. All that can be said, Sabagae were not crossed to make Salmons. For one thing, the subspecies was never in captivity much less in U.S. culture until well after Salmons had become established.

say that there where NO sabogae in the US? How do you know that one didn't slip into a shipment to the US? I feel that there is a good chance that one of them, possibly from a different island sliped into a shipment.

How would someone have got to the Pearl Islands and done so? Ask yourself questions, and think logically for a moment. If someone did have one do you really think they would keep such a rare and EXPENSSIVE animal secret. Come on now. Sabogae are bragging rights. NO ONE was allowed to collect them asside from the European gentleman who runs the Serpentarium in Costa Rica. Morphologically and phenotypically Sabogae are DISTINCT from all other Boa constrictor ssp. If one made it to the mainland by smuggling it would have been noticed and C.I.T.E.S. never granted. The gentleman in Costa Rica was the ONLY person EVER allowed to collect wild Sabogae, and Rich, John, and Brandon imported animal from that captive breeding program, the first to leave it.

If you are going to make an arguement make it logical and factual. Sorry if anyone took offense to the post, I am simply trying to irritirate facts.

I can say that Sabogae didn't start the Salmon/Orange Tail bloodline because of the Matriarch. As I have repeatedly said, she is a BCI (locale is uncertain). By counting dorsal rows, ventrals and subcaudal scales this is known. This information DEFINES the various subspecies.

If the Sabogae are getting roughly 3k each, why would someone have one and sell offspring (even if crosses) for so much less?

The Hypomelanistic (Salmon/ Orange Tail, Nicaraguan, and Sonoran varieties) trait is a MUTATION in the natural GENOTYPE of Boa constrictor ssp. It is inherited through Dominant gene inheritance, the heterozygous are bred together to form a 1/4 (by punnet squares) Homozygous individual. This means that in the F2 (second fillial generation) and each succeding generation Homozygous individuals are produced (called Supers), which have a matching pair of alleles for the trait in the pair of chromosomes that holds the gene. The non-super Hypos have only one allele (thus heterozygous for the double alleled animal).

Sabogae have a color which they evolved to suit their natural habitat.

Please visit Salmonboa.com and read the description of the Salmon trait and its inheritance and development. Also view a picture of the matriarch and talk to Rich Ihle.

I'm still trying to figure out what other evidence would be required? what evidence is there to the contrary? I think the importance of providing detailed info to keep inaccurate assumption from becoming "commonly accepted belief",should not be underrated,and,it would be much more appropriate to "agree there is no credible ground for disagreement." (I guess I should always include a "disclaimer" now,although I can't believe I have to...I'm smiling & whistling & "breathing" while I'm typing,I'm not attacking,or,angry...I'm thinking happy lil'"hedgehog forum thoughts",I'm simply participating in a relevant discussion on a public board about boas...*lol* I think that should cover it?) BTW,everything is fine here,I'm still hanging onto the little striper,hey,she might be a "jungle"!(jk.)

but definitely not a jungle LOL. (inside joke)

I think the origin of hypos are questionable, and well....straight up unknown. There is nothing wrong with that...

But, I don't feel like there truly is any solid evidense that doesn't prove it wasn't a Sabogae who founded it. I am NOT saying it is, I am just saying with the facts that we currently have you can't rule it out. Tell me this doesn't look like a hypo?

And the only reason I originally posted was to try and end this thing LOL....

Hey Tim....How big is she now? PLEASE take some new pics from me man! I don't ask to much from you heheheh.

Did this Sabogae come into the US?

In my personal opinion,"it"(any valid arguement.) was "over" from day one...it was really nothing more than one guys brainfart.(*lol*) zero evidential substance,and,a whole lotta "what if's","maybe's" & stubborn denial? the visual similarity is easily & logicly explained by the simple fact that the genotypical appearence seems to be a naturally occuring anomoly in B.c.ssp. from in,and,around Panama,and,the neighboring islands,not just in Sabogae.(for that matter,all throughout Central America,similar looking forms of "hypos" have been isolated from several geographic areas that are not even adjacent to Panama.)I was shocked that the whole "crock" gained anything more than a laugh considering that Rich was upfront about showing the matriarch of his Salmons,for the whole world to see.As I said previously,there doesn't seem to be any grounds for disagreement,and,it doesn't seem worthwhile to hold our breath waiting for someone to come forward with a Sabogae in one hand,and,a big ol'Colombian in the other,yelling it was me! I did it!!!*lol*...(I'll try to get some pics for ya soon,heck she must be at least 28 feet now! )

I honestly do not understand some people's logic or lack there of. I too am surprised people don't do a little more research before makeing any form of claim, you can't argue with opinion and rumer.

Rich Ihle has his original article and a picture of the matriarch on his website. It is NOT A SABOGAE. There end of story! Rainshadow, good job, I know you are a little frustrated, but you presented good information.

.

That clears up everything!!

What's the big deal either way?

You are looking at a very small geographic area and seeing all 3
types of boas right? Normal looking, Hypo and Sabogea are all
found in basically the EXACT same region. Those islands are
extremely close to both the mainland and each other. Hurricanes
are not occasional, freak accidents, but yearly, natural
occurances in this region. Not once a year, but a number of times
each year. (Every year for thousands of years)...

I'm not sure, what exactly does your post prove?

The availability of Sabogea in private collections has no impact
on the wild populations does it? I guess this is a good
arguement in support of morphs, in that they do, in all
likelyhood occur in nature. Cheers..........tc

That is what I was trying to say. There is no solid evidense in either sides argument. Unless something new comes up...

Are you really saying that the ones from Taboga can't be the same sub species because they aren't from the same island? If they share all of the physical characteristics then locality has very little to do with the scientific name. Perhaps yours are true Saboga Island Boas, but common names are different.Why can't Taboga Island boas share the scientific name? This is why names locations shouldn't be used in the nomenclature I don't know all of the scale counts for the subspecies and all that , but it takes more than a seperation to grant them their own subspecies.
What has been done to show that the bc from Saboga and the ones from Taboga are infact distinct enough to split them subspecifically?
I seriously don't know, andam askingout of curiosity, nothing more.
If it is just the island thing, then maybe we need to start thinking about some bc hoggae,and bc cayos cochinosae,tabogae? Why not have a seperate subspecies for each and every Island? Why stop there? We could even use man made borders for our bc colombiae and guyanae, and bc mexicana...oh wait, that one was tried...hmmm
-----
Davey Giltner

You are correct. Except that the range for Sabogae was restricted to the Pearl Island Archeopelago (sp?). Taboga boas may be under the same subspecies, the animals must be found and examined to verify their true subspecies.

First of let me say I am so sorry I ever said anything. Its one of those topics on KS that is good to stay away from (in my opinion), unless you like controversy. Fortunately no one here has lost their marbles or their sense of humor...yet.

Let me just share an observation with you guys. I often go to this local petstore just to drop in and say hi. I used to go there for feeders and I would end up chatting with the employees about my animals. I thought if I mentioned what I had in my collection they wouldn't profile me as one of those "new to the hobby" beginners(not thats anything to be ashamed of). A bunch of nice people in there so it was cool. Sometimes after a long day I would just go in and watch the monitors crawl around and pet the tortoise...kinda theraputic. So I recently lost my job and told them I would pick up a few hours there for fun. Now im on the other side of the counter for only one day and my perspective has changed. All kinds of people drop in and hang out and try to drop latin names of animals and discuss their impressive reptile related experience and contoversial knowledge....blah blah blah...Just like me, people seem to have something to prove. The topic of madagasgar ground boas comes up... The issue up for debate is if a ground boa has any connecting saddles or pattern across it's back then it has to be crossed with a dumerils somewhere along the line....yada yada... Everyone insists that they know some pro that told them this or that and here we are again like with the friggin' hypo boa topic. At this point im thinking im soooooooo over it! Sometimes all this "I know more than you" controversy just makes me want to vomit on my shoes! This whole "reptile clique" thing is enough to gag a maggot! I would have rather helped set up a young kid with his first bearded dragon, and skip on the whole p!$$!ing contest. The sooner I conclude that I know nothing, stay away from the controversy, just smile and listen the better off I am.

Here are my pics to PROOVE that I have something RARE and BRED it and PRODUCED something (infertile eggs thankyouverymuch), and that I have EXPENSIVE MORPHS that are POPULAR and especiaslly my SALMON from RICH IHLE (namedropping). Right now im working on the first sunglow motley african housesnake...sweet huh! Muhahahahaahaaaaaaa

boidae.... Hope everyone enjoys my sense of humor...