Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I hate to bring bad news in this season of new life but I think it is important to inform the boa community when things don't go well so maybe something can be learned from it.

I was doing my usual Saturday morning cleaning when I noticed one of my gravid females was restless. The activity increased until she seemed frantic. I was concerned because she was at 86 days POS and I was fearful of a premature birthing. I continued cleaning and handling other animals while keeping an eye on Marquita. She seemed to settle a bit so I went to the other side of the room. Soon I heard thrashing noises. She was having violent seizures. This hit especially close to home as I have witnessed my wife have seizures. It is something you never forget.

Marquita's episodes lasted for about 5 minutes and then she was still with her mouth ajar. I first believed that I should wait it out and that she would come out of the seizure as is common in humans. I observed carefully for signs of life but I became convinced that she had passed. My attention turned to the possibility of saving the babies. I had no experimence with premature baby boas and I didn't know if they could survive when born 19 days early. I opened Marquita and found 9 babies and 6 unfertilized eggs. The babies never took a breath. I observed nothing that would clearly indicate a cause of death. This is disheartening but I clearly understood that tragedy was possible when undertaking breeding trials. I think people new to the hobby should understand these risks as well.

What can be learned?
1. I would like to know if any other hobbyists have experience with boas suffering from seizures. Do we know of any causes? Do boas normally die after seizing?
2. Are there hobbyists that have experience with premature babies? Can we establish a timeline whereby survival is likely?

I do have photos but please use your judgement. These are not the type of photos that are usually shared here but I think they can be educational for some hobbyists. I chose not to include them directly in the this post. You must use the link if you decide to see them.

Good fortune to all those still awaiting babies. Appreciate the live, healthy ones. They have beaten the odds to make it that far.

Peace, gray

Caution, unsettling photos

I haven't seen the seizure activity in females but I have had gravid females die before that had bitten their sides and were dead when I found them so maybe they had seized. The earliest litter I have had and kept all of the babies alive was at 94 days with 14 babies that all are growing very well and show no difference from other full term babies born last year. I don't know how rapidly you would have to get babies out after the mother dies to keep them alive and maybe someone else has experience with it. I hope you have better success with your other animals this year.
Bill Kirby

...I believe we experienced something similar. During her seizures, she was gaping and at times it almost appeared like she was going to regurgitate (however, no recent meal) and in the thrashing it did appear that she was biting herself.

Your observation is a good one. I may have just allowed too much time to elapse before attempting to save the babies. Unfortunately, I was not in the mindset of keeping track of time. My best estimate would be 10-15 minutes between the time of her death and opening the sacs to retrieve the babies.

My deepest condolences Gray...I wish I could help with some useful information,but,all I can think is that there may have been some internal rupture,(oviductal?,perhaps,with our current weather front,one,or,more of the babies may have become overactive,and,penetrated the very thin lining separating them from other nearby vital organs???)I have seen pictures of X-rays showing babies that have penetrated into the coelemic cavity,maybe something similar happened with her.anyway,I'm deeply sorry you lost such a gorgeous girl,I'd always much rather come away with "taters",or,nothing at all than lose one of my females.it doesn't appear from the photos that the babies were far enough along to have made it though. I would say around 90 days would be boarderline even if they were actually born alive.(just an opinion,nothing very scientific in that.)

I am so sorry to hear about your loss. I just lost my brazilian rainbow. I had her from when she was a tiny little baby to about 7 feet long, and had planned to breed her this year. She developed a respritory infection, so I gave her antibiotics. Everything looked like it was getting better, she stopped wheezing and blowing bubbles, then I looked in her cage a few days later and she was gone. The hardest part for me, was laying her to rest in a respectful way (you know?? You can't just throw away and animal that you have cared for since infantcey, so I dug a deep hole in the back yard and planted a rose bush over her) and cleaning out her cage was rough. Good luck to you, and I know that it sounds crazy and I hated people saying it to me, but everything happens for a reason.
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Alone, alone, all, all alone. Alone on a wide, wide sea.
-Rime of the ancient Mariner

>>I hate to bring bad news in this season of new life but I think it is important to inform the boa community when things don't go well so maybe something can be learned from it.
>>
>>I was doing my usual Saturday morning cleaning when I noticed one of my gravid females was restless. The activity increased until she seemed frantic. I was concerned because she was at 86 days POS and I was fearful of a premature birthing. I continued cleaning and handling other animals while keeping an eye on Marquita. She seemed to settle a bit so I went to the other side of the room. Soon I heard thrashing noises. She was having violent seizures. This hit especially close to home as I have witnessed my wife have seizures. It is something you never forget.
>>
>>Marquita's episodes lasted for about 5 minutes and then she was still with her mouth ajar. I first believed that I should wait it out and that she would come out of the seizure as is common in humans. I observed carefully for signs of life but I became convinced that she had passed. My attention turned to the possibility of saving the babies. I had no experimence with premature baby boas and I didn't know if they could survive when born 19 days early. I opened Marquita and found 9 babies and 6 unfertilized eggs. The babies never took a breath. I observed nothing that would clearly indicate a cause of death. This is disheartening but I clearly understood that tragedy was possible when undertaking breeding trials. I think people new to the hobby should understand these risks as well.
>>
>>What can be learned?
>>1. I would like to know if any other hobbyists have experience with boas suffering from seizures. Do we know of any causes? Do boas normally die after seizing?
>>2. Are there hobbyists that have experience with premature babies? Can we establish a timeline whereby survival is likely?
>>
>>I do have photos but please use your judgement. These are not the type of photos that are usually shared here but I think they can be educational for some hobbyists. I chose not to include them directly in the this post. You must use the link if you decide to see them.
>>
>>Good fortune to all those still awaiting babies. Appreciate the live, healthy ones. They have beaten the odds to make it that far.
>>
>>Peace, gray
>>
>>
>>Caution, unsettling photos

What you go threw with seeing your wife have seizures!They are a very unnerving sight to have to watch!I sit their with her an ask the good lord why a jerk like me couldnt have had somthing like that instead of a kind hearted person like my own wife!Cammie asked if you felt maybe the female holding her breath an her whole body locking up could have been the cause of the babies dying?Well our hearts are with you Grey!Thanks for posting.Eric Baker[Hypoboa]
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E&C's Exotic House of Reptiles

Yeah its not a good thing to have to live with most definitely. I'm a firefighter/paramedic and I have to deal with it all the time, a little disheartening some times, especially with younger kids.
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0.1.0 Brown Pacman
1.2.0 Albino Clawed frogs
1.0.0 Brown Clawed Frog
0.0.1 Superlight Baby Sulcatta
1.0.0 Juv. leopard tort
0.0.2 Fly river turtles
0.0.2 Savannah Monitors
0.0.1 yellow flame Niger uromastyx
1.1.0 Mali Uromastyx
0.1.1 Ball pythons
2.2.0 pastel Columbian boas
1.1.0 Hypo Hog boas
1.0.0 Hypo pastel boa
1.1.0 Hypo boa babies, Poss. DH sunglow
1.0.0 Coral albino boa (my baby)
and
1.1.0 Pomeranians (the wifes babies)

Sorry to hear about Marquita. Hopefully you will find some answers. The post about one of the babies rupturing the sac early sounds logical.

I wish you the best in all your other trials.

Brett

Gray, my friend, I'm sorry to hear about your loss. I totally know exactly where you are coming from I had the exact same thing happen to me to years ago. Your explanation brought back memories of a horrible night. I opened up my girl who was the largest animal that I ever owned. There were apx. 50 animals that were around 100 days and none survived. I'll email you and we can talk privately, I just know exactly where you are coming from as I witnessed the exact same thing. Gray, I feel for you and the animal.

All the best,
Justin

I am sorry about your loss and I am sure it will sting for a while. I know we get close to our animals and hate to see them in pain, epecially when gravid.

I hope your others go to term and produce textbook perfect litters for you.

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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.SouthernBoids.com
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Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]

I very sorry for your loss. I honestly have no idea what could of caused a seizure.....poisoning?? Just a thought?

Keep us updated!!

Sorry!
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Chris Smith

Captive Bred Herps
My E-Mail

0.0.2 Gila Monsters
3.3 Solomon Island Ground boas
1.2 KSB Normals
1.1 KSB Anery
1.2 KSB Albino Het Snow
1.0 Leopard Gecko -Dudly
1.0 Pacman Frog- Frigity
1.2 Rats - Twitch, Killer, and Flower (babies are food)hehe

Grey,
Steve and I are both very sorry for your loss. It is never easy to witness your breeding go from new life to unexpected death. I truly offer you our condolence and hope that you have a positive experience this year in breeding. The loss of life is always tragic.

Sincerely,
Rose Hipskind
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www.srsnakes.com

what causes that to happen my friend. It has been many years since I witnessed something like that, but I have seen it and I do not believe that it is a seizure, but who knows? Another example of just how far behind we are in Reptile Medicine and being able to know what a certain ailment is by physical signs. As far as the premies, I do not believe in raising premies anymore, in the past when I did, all I seen were problems out of the animals later on and shortened life spans.For future reference; " When a gravid female dies, there is NO WAY to save the babies no matter how fast you react. " Sorry for your loss........GOD BLESS.......Johnson Herp

I'm very sorry for your loss, and know too well just how you feel. I've had 3 snakes die like that since october, and only one of them showed any signs of something being wrong before it happened. It's a part of life though, and as an animal keeper it's something you have to deal with. Good luck with the rest of your animals.

Chris
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0.0.1 Senagel Chameleons-Bud
0.1.0 Red-tail Boas-Xena
1.0.1 Bearded Dragons-Ruff and Alexis
1.0.0 Ball Pythons-Donnie
0.1.0 Carpet Pythons-Lindsey
0.0.1 Savanah Monitors-Izzy

I have had a litter of premature babies before. I really took horrible records during the whole thing. But, my guess is that the babies were 4-5 days early. None of them survived. Certain ones seemed like they might. But, they did not. I don't know if it was the lack of lung development or what. It was a very rough thing to deal with.......I can tell you that. So, I am very sorry to hear you had to go through that.
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

...your loss Gray. I think we sometimes take for granted how stressful breeding is on both males and females. I think breeding trials are more stressful and I've seen more mortalities with boa constrictors than with any pythons or colubrids in my experience.

Someone once said to me "If your going to have livestock, your going to have deadstock". Nothing can be more true when you breed boas. It is definately the highest highs, and the lowest lows. Unfortunately you are in one of the lows. Keep your head up, the highest highs are coming. Good luck.

....

I know how you must be feeling today and I'm sorry, my friend. Kathy and I had the misfortune, last year, of witnessing one of our 20 lb. females seize and pass as we helplessly watched. I know that is of little comfort to you, but please try to remember that life happens as it should and once in awhile it is just plain unpleasant, especially when we have to witness it.

Take whatever lessons you can from this experience though and use them to care for the remainder of your progeny.

Denny & Kathy Rimes

Gray, I am sorry to hear about your loss. I have a somewhat similar experience from a few years back. One of my big females, she was 14 at the time and had an accident breaking out of her cage when she was 5; she ended up getting a huge gash mid-body from her dorsal scales to almost the top of her back. The resulting scar was about 8 inches long and it cut deep enought that she needed medical attention. Anyway, 9 years later she breds successfully for the first time in her life and I actually get to witness the whole thing. Well to make a long story short, she had 27 slugs and 7 babies. Of the 7 babies only one even remotely looked full term, the others were tiny and virtually uncolored. They all ended up passing away and the mother developed an infection somewhere in her reproductive tract and died 2 weeks later. This made me so upset that I sold all of my adult boas and concentrated on colubrids. It was'nt until someone gave me a HUGE female Colombian the next year that I decided to work with them again. Since then, I have changed my focus back to BCI, which was my first pet snake and I couldn't be happier.

I wish you all the best an am sorry ofr your loss. take care. Derek

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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net

Gray,

Very sorry to hear of this news, but think it is great you shared it, despite the sad outcome.
Of course some times we tend to forget-that just like when people have problems, so can snakes- The track record is usually great-and we kind of get lulled into "that's what we should always expect" when when you really think about it-statistically things will crop up. The more animals we work with the more we see. Breeding itself is not like maintaining as a pet, and you go up a notch in the things happen area. Biology being what it is-a myriad of reasons could have been the cause-and most likely nothing you could have done would have changed it.
Tracy/VPI

Gray,

Sorry to hear of your loss. I loss two of my best snakes that way. When my anery female seize it was so bad it look as if a major crime had occurred inside her cage. I had never seen anything like it before.

I think Tracy/VPI has sum it up... " people have problems, so can snakes ".

Stay focus keep doing the best that you can!

Griff/ L.A.Snakes, INc. / lasnakes@hotmail.com

.....after replaying the morning's events over and over in my mind, I believe that I may have misinterpreted them. I now think it was more likely that she had heart failure and was dead well before I was convinced that it was over. I think she was violently struggling to breathe rather than seizing. However, I will never know for sure.

Ten lives were lost this morning but it has only increased my resolve to do my best by these animals. I'm expecting a litter on May 2 so hopefully this will provide a better result, ease the pain, and give me something better to share with you.

Thanks for helping me deal with this. It certainly helped to share.

gray

life all the more, animal and human. It is so easy to forget how quickly it can be snatched away. Thank you for sharing this with us.
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Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it".

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Gray,

I am not a medical doctor or vet, but my training and education does cover CNS dysfunction. The great majority of seizures in people are idiopathic, which means the cause is unknown. Symptomatic (the cause is known) seizures can be the result of numerous abnormalities including metabolic disorders, CNS infections, structural brain anomalies brain tumors or sever brain trauma. The difficulty with determining the cause of death in symptomatic seizures is separating the damage caused by the seizure itself from the effects of the underlying cause of the seizure. In humans, prolonged seizure activity (greater than 20 minutes) is called status eplilepticus and can cause brain damage that results in cognitive impairment or even death. In a snake I would imagine that the time required for brain damage to occur is much less. I am terribly sorry to hear about your loss.

Alton

Sorry to hear of your loss!! I had a gravid C.cerastes that went through a similiar event prior to giving birth. Seizures, gaping, etc...She passed about 5minutes before I had to go to work so I put her in the freezer and necropsied her when I got home. Never did find out what went wrong.

B