Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Lots and lots of people telling stories on the net about the new savs they just bought. Some even claimed they bought CBB for $20 and $25.
I have a challenge for all the new owners. It's not that hard of a challenge really. My challenge is to you to read over the archives here and elsewhere and learn to take good care of your new critter or critters. Post here once a month with updates and pics. If you can do this for 2 years, I will pay for and have a new sav delivered to your house. So get to work and post pics, I will copy the pics and keep them in a file. Don't try to fool me with a different sav if your first one dies or you get rid of it because you couldn't handle the one you have now.
As for the ones that "Think" they just got a great deal on a CBB sav.
Think about this, you buy some savs, you raise them, house them feed them and they give you fertile eggs. Now you incubate these eggs for around 6 months. You watch them and feed them and hope the majority of them live.
Now after all you just went through, are you going to sell them to Joe Smoe for the same price as a dehyderated, parasite ridden, stressed out new caught and imported animal?

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

I am so glad you brought this up Scott.

I was at the show yesterday and I have to say I was astonished at the numbers of monitors there, especially considering the NY Ban. I walked from table to table in total disgust to see $20-$25-$30 dollar for monitors that were under 10 grams, couldn't have been more than a few weeks old, and right off the boat.

I'm not naming vendors, but not for nothing, I was pretty upset seeing some really good people, and normally good stock, sporting ten gallon tanks with literally 80 some odd babies half dead skin and bones. Nothing I saw was properly hydrated and everything was way to young for sale.

I listened to one lady actually comment on how she paid $200.00, for her first sav years ago and it was that small and grew to six feet. I just looked at her with amazement as to a. why she paid 200.00 and B. why was she trying to sell these things as cb for. I mean that whole yarn about how price has come down cause so many ar cb I just left my jaw hanging.

When, I mentioned, I have a nice breeding colony at home and that I am on my seventh clutch in two years I received the nastiest look. I can't even describe it.

I left the show yesterday with such sympathy for the hundreds of animals going to their deaths that night and the rest of this week. If any of those animals makes it to adulthood it would be a miracle. $20 dollars expendable and disposable pets. Really very upsetting.

I got home and I just sat with my breeders and looked at my little ones from F1 that I have kept to add to the collective, and how realistically no matter how healthy or fat or handlable these guys are, when it's my table there in July they will just be passed over till that wonderful other table of 50-100 $30 and under tanks are sitting there and watch an 8 year old convince his father to buy this already dying animal. Sometimes you just have to sit and mourn the situation.

Ok rant done sorry

Kidding,

It really doesnt take to much to keep a monitor alive, does everyone think 90% imported monitors die?

I would have to say that the numbers are greater than that. Probably more along the lines of 99%, sadly...

We also have to keep in mind that us, who come here to chat varanids on these online forums and chatrooms, are a mere 1% of the actual monitor keeping population. The majority of these people that JC had mentioned, who attend these local shows and pet shops are the impulse buyers, oblivious to the real needs of the animals. All they see is a cheap price tag, and that the animal is expendable.. just like a goldfish(a bit more expensive, but you get the point).

This majority- the number of sav owners and nile owners greatly outweighs the number of people keeping 'other species', do not seek out help, or advice, or share their experiences with others as we do here..

I don't think that it's us that we worry about, as I would have to so most/all of the people who come to the forums have a level head, or are willing to learn..that is why they are here.. It is all of the Joe Schmoes out there, which support these dealers, as they come back again and again, for their 'replacement' after their original one dies...

I was at the show yesterday as well, and was amazed at the number of fresh imported baby savs... but then again, it did not really surpise me, as it is at these shows that you get the people who only want to buy the cheap stuff. I would have to say that the majority of animals that are actually sold at shows(excluding Daytona or any of the other "real" shows) are cheap, imported, WC, dehydrated crap...They also had to compensate with savs, for the lack of WC niles and waters, as they are now illegal in NY.

But as long as it is legal to export, and as long as there are schmoes willing to buy crap... there will always be a demand for them.... Sad, but true. I used to go around and question the dealers, why they had their monitors set up in such terrible conditions, etc... but I have since stopped/gave up, as it is just wasting my breath and time, they are just going to keep selling them, as it means money to them... To stop the problem, exportation must stop, but at the same time, the reptile/animal export business in africa is big money, and aids their already poor economies... Money is money, and these deprived third world countries I think would rather take the money than try to save a bunch of lizard's lives by not exporting them, and losing potential profits.....

Cheers,

Bob
treemonitors.com

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TheOdatriad

that there is NO real difference between this and the indo monitors. The only difference is the amount of money. While the industry is sick, you two (and I) are just as much (if not more) a part of the problem as the teenager buying a sav and throwing it in an aquarium. Every w.c. that is bought, is just more money to import more. So who is the bigger problem, they kid buying one sav, or the person buying 26 croc monitors or 14 green trees or 7 peachies??????? Who puts more money in to import more?

I share blame too, none of us have much ground to stand on until we are ONLY buying c.b. monitors from people that keep them properly. Sure that would limit the species you could keep, but it's either that or being hypocritical.

--Robert

All of my animals are captive bred.

hahaha... just kidding. While I completely agree that it is hypocracy, I do see a difference between indonesian exports and african exports.

Indonesia does not export anywhere near the volume of monitors that africa does. In fact, Indonesia has placed strict restrictions on animals being exported.

Africa exports substantially more monitors than indonesia, where far more african monitors die in the pet trade than indo ones.. While the percentage of animals surviving/dying between the two is probably the same, the overall numbers is far off-balanced, which in my opinion, is a greater problem with the African species.

Perhaps if all of the indonesian monitors were priced similarly to the africans, and were exported in the same numbers, we would see the same thing that we are seeing with these savs and niles and albigularis. But it this is not so. It is ultimately price and quantities which govern this...

I am not completely against imports as long as it is sustainable; as it can be good for many reasons,but most importantly it helps the economies of these starving nations.. While I do not think shutting down the export of monitors would be completely necessary, perhaps a bit more regulation of quotas and quantities would help. I think if the prices were higher, many of the non-informed/uneducated normally impulse buyers would pass on such rash purchases. WHile this probably wouldn't cut down on the percentage of animals who die, it would cut down on the total number of animals needed to be imported, as there would be fewer people willing to pay the extra money.

There are many ways that importers/exporters can make money.. I think that flooding the market is not the way to go about it though, which apparently is the case with african monitors....
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TheOdatriad

Hi Bob,

I don't quite understand what you mean by seeing the same things in indos we see with africans. While the quantities differ, percentage wise I see just as many sickly indos. I do not however think the price being higher is a bad thing, I've always felt that sub-200 was way too low for any monitor. But price is always like that, if all of them cost $10k we would see better care overall, but still there would be neglect, it's just human nature, and there would definitely be less keepers (I'm not sure if that is good or bad).

I'm not defending the industry, just trying to illustrate that it is a very complex problem that we are part of.

--Robert

That's what I was trying to say Robert, perhaps it didn't come out sounding as it should have.. I was hinting that if prices were higher(especially on african species) this would weed out many of the inexperienced/unknowledgeable impulsive buyers who in 99% of the cases are the ones who repeatedly kill these animals and continue to buy more... due to their cheap and expendable price. The fact that they are imported in such heavy numbers prevents this from ever happening.

While although this does not always hold true, i would like to think that people who are willing to spend $2000 on a monitor, are also willing to committ to putting all the time and money into ensuring the health and success of their captives. I cannot see too many people buying baby V. pilbarensis and setting them up in cracked 10 gallon aquaria with cage carpet.... While I am not doubting that there are some people who fit that bill, I would think that in most cases if people are willing to shell out thousands of dollars for a monitor, they'd also be willing to shell out just as much if not more for their animal's upkeep. When you get down to the lower priced species such as savanahs and niles, we see just the opposite.

The problem is all about supply and demand... Supply is high, too high to warrant any type of high dollar value... Cut the supply and raise the prices, dealers would be able to make the same cut, and at the same time, you would weed out some of poor monitor keeper candidates, and decrease the amount that are sacrificed each year.

About the african-indo thing, I was merely comparing that the percentage of animals who die from either group are usually the same, it's just that the magnitude is much greater when dealing with African species.

As you get into more and more expensive animals(WC or CBB), you see a general decrease in the amount of deaths per species (%wise) as for the most part, keeper experience/knowledge is usually at a higher level... Unless you are rich and have money to blow(which is not usually the case), most people with no prior monitor keeping experience are not going to jump right out and buy a 4,000 dollar lace monitor.

So I guess what i am saying, is that i would be in favor of higher prices for monitors, as generally speaking, only people who are confident in their monitor keeping skills would consider paying a higher price. I like to think that the value of any living monitor is more than $20....

Of course this change will never occur, as we tend to see a mass-flooding of the industry, more animals than will actually sell.
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TheOdatriad

So are you guys saying that my sav wont be able to grow to a large healthy animal since i got it from this place for $10. Even if i do everything that is needed to raise a healthy animal? Just wondering, not trying to be an @ss.

your chances are greatly decreased.

Are you feeling lucky?

You have free will, what you allow your monitor to do, has only to do with your monitor's health now and your husbandry (with a bit of luck thrown in). It has nothing to do with the price of your monitor, it has everything to do with you.

Good Luck,

--Robert

I was saying that the majority of people who buy cheap monitor lizards usually don't supply them with the care they need because the animals themselves were so inexpensive. Also note that I clearly stated that I do not consider the people who come to visit this and other forums as being part of the majority of people who keep such species like savs and niles.. The majority of people do not seek help, or choose to learn more about their animal. By you coming to this forum, you are seeking information, and have the desire and will to learn. This is what differentiates 'us'(nomatter what your experience) from 'them'.

Of course there are people who buy 10 dollar monitors that will spend obscene amounts on their captives care and upkeep. I admire that. Unfortunately, as I pointed out, that is not the case with the majority of keepers. My argument deals with the majority of sav and nile keepers(and other cheap species too). Go to a local reptile swap or herp show, and take note of what most people are buying and walking around with... That is "Reptile Keeper Joe Schmoe", your typical reptile owner..

These are the same people who do not know that there is a difference between wild caught or captive bred, what a sick/dehydrated animal looks like, they buy animals on impulse for their 'shock value'("i'll be tough if I have a big mean lizard", or the "daddy, I want that lizard! Buy me it!". These are also the same people who buy reticulated pythons while living in a 400 sq' studio apartment. They simply do not think things through..

So again, my post was not intended to offend anybody, I was merely pointing out that there is a difference between 'us' and 'them'.

I do not doubt that you will give your animal the best care possible, as you have taken the time to come and open your mind and learn...

Cheers,

Bob
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TheOdatriad

Will not take a $10 lizard for a $100 vet visit.

Or spend, $300 dollars for caging a $10 reptile

Or spend $5 weekly feeding a $10 lizard. Or provide expensive heating costs plus, food, plus, vets, plus, expensive housing for a $10 lizard. The costs are whats called in other areas, upside down.

These $10 lizards are used in the pet trade as a lure for the buyer to purchase hard goods. Also, the normal price for these ten dollar lizards is more like $29.95, but the function is the same. Even at that price, the shops do not make money(profit) on the monitors, their profit is with hard goods, you know overpriced, UV bulbs, gut loading crap, indoor outdoor carpet, etc, You know, all the things that are basically useless and are not needed in the first place. FR

2005 cites quota (as shown on the cites website for 2005 export quotas)
Varanus exanthematicus
7,500 ranched
750 wild taken
3,000 skins
500 live
500 live wild taken
7,000 live
3,000 wild taken
7,000 ranched
Total: 29,250

Varanus niloticus
5,000 ranched
2,000 skins
70,000 skins
1,000 live
750 live
5 skins
6,000 live
3,000 wild taken
7,500 ranched
1,000 wild taken
50 F1
Total: 96,305

Varanus albigularis
500 live
1,000 wild taken
50 F1
Total: 1,550

Varanus doreanus
500 live

Varanus dumerili
400 live

Varanmus jobiensis
300 live

Varanus rudicolis
900 live

Varanus salvadorri
200 live

Varanus salvator
444,600 skins
5,400 live
Total: 450,000

How many of the 127,105 african monitors exported will live? How many will reproduce? Obviously some will not make it far since they are culled for skins. Out of the rest (52,100) I would say very few will live, and even fewer will reproduce.

Now you have the indo monitors with the 444,600 salvator skins omitted, your left with 7,700. Much lower then that of the african species. But yet you still will see much of the same.

I see your point, and for the most part agree. I just find it odd that people that have mostly imported species (who are funding even more importation) be so anti-industry that they are supporting. I hate what the industry does, but I bite my lip on the importation process, because I personally have funded it, I don't like it, but I doand have done it. I don't see how I could possibly be more justified (on buying imports) than anyone else, we ALL have killed our fair share of monitors, at least anyone who has had a bunch of monitors for years.

--Robert

How many will continue to buy and kill instead of learning from theirs and our mistakes to make the next one live a long healthy life. I can claim to have lost 2 monitors, one was a rescue that didn't make it past a few months and the other was an escapee that never made it past all the kids and was stepped on hiding under the dirty laundry.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

I don't think that's very common, I think it's far more common to get one and keep it alive for a year, grow bored with it and let it die by neglect. I would put money on most of the savs, niles and waters being bought by first time monitor owners, that then lose/kill the monitor and lose interest. I figure anyone that shows up here, has at least shown a slight willingness to learn.

I do think your money's pretty safe, but you already knew that!

--Robert

I guess i was the first one to accept the challenge.Tomorrow i will post pics of the tank and the lizard itself.I dont want to bother now since its night time and most likely the sav is asleep.I hop my sav does survive.The way you guys made it seem i feel like my lizard is sick and dehydrated and the lizard was dehydrated beacause it drunk its own pee but then i shoved him away and gave him water from a bowl while holding him and he at least drunk for 15 seconds.But i have a nice setup and i am doing everything well so hopefully with a little luck and tlc it will live!

A monitor that may look horrible can still be saved in many cases, if your monitor is drinking on its own and eating he will probably be fine. It's the ones that feel "hollow", low weight that usualy have big problems, they may even appear to look healhy but feel empty. I wouldnt handle him for a while until he gets aclimated to his new home. If a monitor has food, water, proper temps spray the cage inside with a water bottle to add a bit of humidity, they are usualy hard to kill, it usualy takes a good amount of neglect to kill one unless its really bad off.