Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is my first post so go easy on me. I am relatively new to reptiles and own a ball python and a few corn snakes. I am planning on expanding my collection to include a breeding pair of 100% het albino balls and maybe a few more corns. At least thats the plan now. I would like to build an enclosure of wood (or plywood, MDF, etc.) that has the general dimensions of 6'wide, 2' deep, and 6' tall. It would really be 4 sets of cages stacked (easier for me to move by myself) that are, individually, 6'x2'x18", that would have a divider in each to have a max possible of 8 3'x2'x18" cages (hope this makes sense) and the bottom "cage" would initially just be used for storage. I have spoken with Bob at Pro-Products and plan on heating with RHP. I have read past posts and plan on using several coats of a water-based polyurethane to seal whatever material I plan on using. I have a carpenter friend who plans on doing this as a favor as long as I purchase material. The main question I have is what type of wood (plywood, MDF, etc) would people suggest and at what thickness to provide the lightest, cheapest and most stable (in strength)? I know that there are probably different answers to respond to lightest, cheapest and strongest but I guess I want answers to each and then maybe people opinions as to the best option. Also, where do people typically pick up the plate glass or acrylic for the hinged doors? If you have any other suggestions, please share. I picture the end product being similiar to jasonmattes post on Apr 13 with the dimensions mentioned above. Just trying to get a quality product without spending a fortune!

Just trying to get a quality product without spending a fortune!

Disregarding function, which we all want, it sounds like your other concerns are 1) appearance, 2) cost, and 3) light weight in that order.

Is that correct?

If so, that can be a tough combo. I typically pick one of the three criteria and run with it. Combining all three is where people run into trouble.

Under this assumption, I would first recommend modifying your dimensions. If you made a 4' cage that was a bit deeper front to back you could still provide sufficient floor space and likely save A LOT of material.

And for appearance, I personally prefer a taller cage. For a cage 4' or longer, and especially if you go 6', you'll need upper and lower lips to provide a bit of sag-resistance to the cages. This will further restrict viewing.

I would want at least 3", which takes away 6" of viewing, and only leaves 12", depending on whether or not the 18" height is total or the inside dimension.

I like a minimum of 14" viewing area. More is better. And your corn snakes will appreciate it. And since your new to herps the height might come in handy as you develop other interests. I find 2' tall cages to be very versatile. Not to tall to heat for terrestrials, not too short for the species that climb.

The main question I have is what type of wood (plywood, MDF, etc) would people suggest and at what thickness to provide the lightest, cheapest and most stable (in strength?

Lightest, cheapest, and most stable, geez, would you also like it to be self-cleaning Sorry, just poking fun at you.

Seriously, though, that's too much. You really need to decide what's most important to you.

I'll tell you right now that light AND cheap is a dangerous combination.

Have you considered expanded PVC? It is more expensive but there are no other finishing costs associated with an assembled cage. I'm sure your carpenter could figure it out.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Thank you for your suggestions. As far as my concerns and how they rank I would say that you are correct with appearance, cost, and then weight. Really, weight is of minimal concern as long as I can move each individual one with one other person or by myself. I would not be opposed to modifing the dimensions to 4' wide x 3' deep but height I am unsure. I am a fairly short girl (5'2" and I would be concerned because if each one is 2' tall then it is now 8' high unless I make it 2 cabinets each 3 cages high so they are 4'x3'x6'(have a storage/cage on the bottom of each of the 2 cabinets for now to raise it off the floor because my dog is psycho). But then I again increase the amount of material from 10 sheets of plywood orginally to 12 (but it offers more cage space too which is a plus). Any other configuration suggestions. And if I go 4'x3'x2' each what thickness plywood is necessary? Thanks

As far as my concerns and how they rank I would say that you are correct with appearance, cost, and then weight. Really, weight is of minimal concern as long as I can move each individual one with one other person or by myself.

Given your concerns I definately encourage you to got with cages 4' long or less.

I think you're falling into the trap that a lot of beginner keepers do - that more cages space is better than less. I've been keeping reptiles for 20 years and I still feel that way. But I do feel that your building cages too big, although it's not clear to me if you plan to use these dividers all the time or just when needed.

I really think that 4'x2'x2' is the right choice. It is probably the most versatile size for the species you keep.

If it were me I'd built individual cages, no dividers, and make them 32"x24"x24". Some Ball Python breeders would still argue that's too much space. That's bigger than a 40 gallon breeder, for example.

I would use black melamine for the carcass of each cage and then make a real wood frace frame for the front.

The cages would be bottomless and then Sintra would be silicones/stapled to the bottom rim of each cage. The floor would be semi-flexible but would be supported by the top of the cage below. In the case of the bottom cage, its floor would be supported by your storage unit. I would make the storage unit about 16" tall give your height concerns.

If you or your carpenter are just too uncomfortable with the floor-less design, then cut out the majority of the floor like Dogbert did with the cage he posted earlier this week:

You can see the very top cage has much of it's bottom cut out. This keeps it strong and then the Sintra can be laminated over that.

I love the look of stained plywood but the decent material costs almost twice as much as melamine from the start. Then you have your finishing costs on top of that.

I really think a melamine cage with a real-wood face frame is worth the slight weight penalty, especially given your specific concerns.

Lastly, don't make the cages 4'x3'x2' without mocking that up first. Cut it out of cardboard or something so you can see it.

Sometimes cages that are much deeper than they are tall just don't look as good. Probably won't matter as much with a 2' tall cage.

At any rate, I was thinking 4'x30"x2' when I made the suggestion.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Sorry, my reply was a bit confusing. As I seem to have suggested that three different sizes were "the right choice".

If you absolutely must have a larger cage then go with cages no more than 32" deep (front to back). 32" is an exact multiple of 96" so you'll waste less material and it won't be so deep to look awkward. 48"x32"x24" would be a large cage size that would utilize material well. I mentioned 30" deep just because it gives a little bit of scrap which can be handy. If space is your concern the cornsnakes will use the 24" of height as much as the length, from my experience.

But the 48"x24"x24" size is probably the most versatile cage size there is. So many different types of species would do well in that size. And it utilizes wood well.

But if it were me and I was keeping cornsnakes and Ball Pythons then 32"x24"x24" would be my choice. Those are still considered large cages for either species and you can just skip the dividers.

>>I really think that 4'x2'x2' is the right choice. It is probably the most versatile size for the species you keep.

>>If it were me I'd built individual cages, no dividers, and make them 32"x24"x24". Some Ball Python breeders would still argue that's too much space. That's bigger than a 40 gallon breeder, for example.

>>At any rate, I was thinking 4'x30"x2' when I made the suggestion.

You mention dividers but not when they will be used.

What enclosure space do you intend to keep your snakes in the majority of the time?
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

>>You mention dividers but not when they will be used.
>>
>>What enclosure space do you intend to keep your snakes in the majority of the time?

Sorry for not making it very clear myself. I plan on keeping the dividers in most, if not all, of the time for all but one of the cages but am making it with dividers for breeding/convience sake for future use. This may change, but in one cage I plan on leaving the divider out because this will house the first breeding pair of balls I plan on purchasing. Thanks for all your help! I really appreciate it.

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>>Current snakes:
>>
>>0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)
>>
>>1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)
>>
>>7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)
>>
>>0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

>>Given your concerns I definately encourage you to got with cages 4' long or less.

Thanks again for your help and suggestions. I am actually strongly considering the 4'x30"x2' configuration you suggested. I talked to a friend this morning and apparently I can get AC grade pine plywood (I would definately stain and seal well) pretty much for free. I think that will be the material I will use for construction. How thick do you think it will need to be?
>>
>>I think you're falling into the trap that a lot of beginner keepers do - that more cages space is better than less. I've been keeping reptiles for 20 years and I still feel that way. But I do feel that your building cages too big, although it's not clear to me if you plan to use these dividers all the time or just when needed.

I was planning on using the top few dividers all the time and only leave one full cage for a pair of breeding ball pythons. I did the math and if I have a 2'x30" divided area that is still a larger footprint than a 40 breeder. That should be ok for a single ball, right?

>>
>>I really think that 4'x2'x2' is the right choice. It is probably the most versatile size for the species you keep.

If I decide to go with the 2' tall cages, 3 cages tall plus the "storage" is just too tall for me to clean let alone view well. Any suggestions other than only making it 2 cages and the storage? I just did the math and I can make two storage sections and 4 cages (8 if the dividers are in) to stack in 2 columns out of the 10 sheets of plywood I can get from a friend.

I am actually strongly considering the 4'x30"x2' configuration you suggested. I talked to a friend this morning and apparently I can get AC grade pine plywood (I would definately stain and seal well) pretty much for free.

Okay, now that I know that the dividers will be in the cages most of the time that really helps. I like the idea of each species having 24"x30"x24" as their individual cages. If you have to go shorter then just figure out the minimum you can take off and meet your other needs.

One note about dividers. They do make it more difficult to use sliding doors unless the divider is installed/taken out from inside the cage.

I know you mentioned hinged doors, but if appearance is important then you should consider sliding doors. To again steal a picture from Dogbert, look at his finished cage stack below. All cages are identical, but the one with the sliding door has such a more open view.

Now maybe you think his cages with hinged doors are more attractive, I don't know, but I want you to at least consider it.

I think that will be the material I will use for construction. How thick do you think it will need to be?

I like AC plywood. I now prefer to pay the upcharge for birch or oak, but when I was first teaching myself cage construction I used A LOT of AC plywood. If it were free I'd use it again.

A couple of notes on AC:

The A side does not stain as well as other woods. It sort of gets a splotchy look. If you really want a stain shop around for a pre-stain treatment that evens the absorbtion out.

Also, the A side will have patches. They are the small football shaped things you see. These also can really stand out once a cage is stained.

With the above two concerns, I would recommend going with a painted interior. With a primer + paint you'll get as good or better water protection as stain + clear coat for a lot less money. And I think it will look better, at least on AC pine.

I do recommend paying a bit extra for a real-wood face frame. This I would stain and clear coat.

Regarding thickness, that depends. If you want to try the floor-less design where the Sintra just staples to the bottom rim of the cage then use 3/4".

If you don't feel comfortable with that design then your carpenter friend can easily make the cage from 1/2". It will be a little more tricky to attach the face frame but he or she will be able to handle it.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I agree with Chris, in that light and cheap don't go well together. I agree on what he said as far as the sizes go, I would probably make them a tad bit taller. You'll want a wider bottom lip to hold your substrate in, and a wider top lip to keep it from sagging. I made all my cages 24" high and they really are easy to use for just about any species. I have one housing a green tree python, one housing an asian rat snake, and two housing north american rat snakes.

As far as finishes go, you have to think what kind of finish do you want. are you happy with something with a semi-gloss solid white/black finish, or do you want something that looks more like a quality piece of furnature - such as stained. If you want something stained, i'd reccomend to go with Oak. If you like the standard white, just go with Melamine. Birch is another choice, it paints very nicely, but I personally like the look of oak over Birch.

What I would do is gigure out how many 4x8 pieces of 3/4" plywood or melamine you need and go down to home depot and get a price. If you can't decide, this should help a lot. Make up big price lists, just figure everything you'll need.

If you were doing melamine i would include:
Melamine 4x8 sheets (actually is 49"x97", one inch longer each way)
Iron-on edging

If you're doing plywood I would make a list including:
Plywood 4x8 sheets
Trim
Stain
Polycrylic
Sandpaper
Paint/Primer (if you decide to paint the inside of your cage)
Contact paper, FRP, or whatever you choose to line the inside with
If you choose FRP, then you'll need FRP adhesive

The rest of the stuff will be common expenses (caulking, screws, heating, perches, doors, etc). These few things will help you on cost between the two.
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-Chris

0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat
1.0 Black Rat
0.1 Vietnamese Blue Beauty
1.0 Green Tree Python
0.1 Texas Bairds Rat

The educated are the few. The uneducated are the masses.

North American Rat / Corn Snake Care Sheet

as always chris has some good tips and information. i strongly agree with his thoughts on the sizing.
as far as material and weight i personnaly prefer 1/2" plywood. with all the dividers to make the different cages it should be sturdy without the need to use 3/4" which would drastically increase the weight. depending on your budget you could get higer grade plywood and stain it or go with lower grade wood and paint it (although you can stain lower grade wood it just doesnt look as good). as far as chris stated about the dams on the top and bottom of the front of the cage openings i agree partially. 4-6" is what i prefer for the bottom depending on what type and how much substrate will be used. for the top on the other hand i would only use enough to hide whatever heat source you have in your case the heat pannels wouldnt need a 6" dam (although it is preference) and would give you a larger viewing/working area. lastly as far as the glass local glass shops are the best as far as i have found and often times they cary tracks as well if you are having trouble locating them.