Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know of any eastern fox snake breeders. If so could you direct me to them. I havn't noticed anyone selling them. Thanks.

Steve

Don Hamper worked with them at one time (I'm pretty sure). I just checked his site (breeders/dealers) and he does not seem to have any. I bet he knows who does. Duffy

Jim Sargent of Split Rock Reptiles also produces Eastern Fox snakes.

Steve

Steve let's just say that I work with eastern foxsnakes.

Regards
John

Yeah the Mods can be strange about what and who they let post a comment on this forum. It seems to me that the rats snake forum has a different more active mod than some other forums. I have had a bunch of threads deleted on the forum.

To the mods out there in scary cyber police world it would be helpful if you just sent a Email to us letting us know why we got deleted. You have our email on file so it would be easy. Some post I have had deleted had no reason that I could see. Other peoples post I see on here stay when they should be deleted. Lets us know what was said to make the differance.

Thanks Jason

I was just being senile and/or lazy or I would have just sent an email to the original poster. All in all I feel the moderation here is pretty benign. I remember the bad old days and some of the other sites where flame wars flared and civility ceased to exist. I like a place where mostly everyone's pleasant and we tend to stay on-topic. If I wanted combat I'd have joined the Marines.
John

John, that is one of the best looking Eastern Fox snakes I've ever seen. Just curious, Is there much difference in care between the Eastern vs Western Fox? I wasn't sure if one tended to be more of a hardy captive then the other. Thanks,

Steve

are ravenous feeders and the husbandry is pretty straight forward. But one thing they both share is a preference for cooler temperatures. So a cold basement is key to brumating them enough for breeding and high summer temperatures are a real problem. Mine go off feed in the heat (as adults) and if you get them to eat when it's too hot it can cause regurgitation and eventually even death. So they aren't that hard to keep but they do have some special requirements as compared to corns or obsoleta. I think of them as northern corns or northern rats. Hope that helps.
Regards
John

Is there a difference visually between the two? On the net I've seen them dark and light, with lots of saddles and with fewer, and they seem to be labeled eastern or western almost at random.

Also, you don't have a website do you?

because of this they have a much greater variability in their appearance. So you can find areas where the westerns are quite different from any easterns. But you'll never find easterns that are completely different from any westerns. There are some small differences between easterns and westerns with respect to ranges of saddle counts and tail spots. But the overlap is very large. I work with westerns from Minnesota (John Meltzer's stock) that look a great deal different from easterns. My easterns are from Toledo OH (Bart Bruno's stock). But I have seen pictures of westerns that looked very similar to easterns. An yway they're both interesting snakes in my opinion.

I don't have a website. But I do have a photo gallery on Kingsnake (under jfirneno).

Regards
John

I travel around the country allot and stop in reptile shows wherever they are near.
Three times last year, I found vendors selling Eastern Fox Snakes, but when I examined the animals, they were clearly westerns.
These vendors seemed sincere that they did not know.

As John (jfirneno) correctly said in this thread, “(westerns) have a much greater variability in their appearance”.
Telling the difference is a challenge, yet, when you keep both, it becomes easier.

Conant/Collins/Johnson say that Westerns average 41 dorsal blotches and Easterns average 34. Key word here is average.

Note This is measured from neck to cloacae (not to tip of tail).

Tennant says that Westerns have 32 to 52 and average 41 dorsal blotches and Easterns have 28 to 43 and average 34.

If you're shopping, here’s a typical Eastern. You can’t see it in the picture, but there are 14 dorsal blotches from the cloacae to the tip of the tail, so you do the math.
Still the wonderful thing about nature are the suprises!!

Here's a '03 western where there are 15 blotches from the cloacae to the tip of the tail.

what's the locale? Last year a fellow had a hypo vulpina for sale. It was a very attractive animal and I was sorely tempted to get it. But I would be more inclined to go after a locale animal that differed from the gloydi in tending to a more straw yellow ground color. There was a nice looking animal like that on page 87 of Staszko and Walls' "Rat Snakes: A Hobbyist's Guide to Elaphe and Kin".

I have a completely unsupported and unresearched "theory" that the vulpina that most resemble the gloydi come from similar habitat near the Great Lakes and that the vulpina from drier locales differ the most in appearance and habits from gloydi. Of course this would be only common sense but since it doesn't have any scientific interest as a research project it isn't something I can find reference to in the literature. It would be interesting to hear from herpers in the midwest who have observed vulpina from different types of habitat to see if they confirm or refute my "theory".
Regards
John

Hey, John,

I’m so embarrassed to say that I have little or no location data on any of my Foxes (vulpina or gloydii). Both are from CB stock (mostly because of how protected they are in most states.)
In almost all my other North American Rat groups I’ve personally collected the breeders, but not the Foxes!

I hope you pursue gathering data on habitat/appearance of vulpina. Sounds like a good project. It would be great to have a “call for pics with locality” on “Field Notes and Observations” Forum.

Regards, Bill McGighan

Some Fox links:

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Elaphe_vulpina.html

http://www.herpnet.net/Iowa-Herpetology/reptiles/snakes/fox_snake.html

http://web4.msue.msu.edu/mnfi/abstracts/zoology/Elaphe_vulpina_gloydi.pdf

Interesting Publications:
Keegan, H.L. 1944. An albino fox snake (Elaphe vulpina) from Iowa. Copeia 1944(2): 59.
Kraus, F., & G.W. Schuett. 1983. A melanistic Elaphe vulpina from Ohio. Herpetological Review 14(1): 10-11.

None of my breeders are self caught. I like your thought about a call to locality photos. And Terry Cox, John Meltzer and a few others on this forum could definitely contribute. They are first-hand witnesses to where these snakes live and how they act and look.

As far as research, I'm more of a kibitzer. What I wish is that someone would do an exhaustive "coffee table" book on the american ratsnakes. Something that adds onto the nice sections that K D Schulz had in his monograph on Elaphe. It could have all the regional variation in obsoleta and the other ratsnakes, all the captive morphs and lots of scientific articles by various experts. It would sell a ton (I think).

Thanks for the links. Look at the color variation even among those few pictures you linked. Very interesting snakes I think.

Regards
John Firneno

>>None of my breeders are self caught. I like your thought about a call to locality photos. And Terry Cox, John Meltzer and a few others on this forum could definitely contribute. They are first-hand witnesses to where these snakes live and how they act and look.
>>

I wish I could contribute to this conversation, more, but I've been pressed for time lately, and have only logged on about once a week. When you post on fox snakes again, shoot me an email, so i can get involved

I don't keep any fox snakes, but do study them in the wild when I get the chance. I'll be heading to the Western U.P. this month, asamof. Easterns are protected in Michigan, and I have too many other snakes to keep Westerns either. I work a lot with corn/GP rats and a few kings, as well as a few Asians still, but have changed stock a lot over the last couple years. Really nice Mandarin, btw, and growing faster than my Sichuans, haha.

There are some differences bt. Western and Eastern fox snakes, but are very difficult to tell, especially by the unexperienced. You've mentioned most of them. In general, Westerns tend to be duller, more like a Western snake....

But, I have seen a couple Westerns that were as bright or more so than any Eastern I've seen. One two yrs ago in the U.P. was just gorgeous, and you would have sworn was an Eastern with it's bright orange head and light tan body, but unfortunately, it had just been hit by a car.

Gotta run. Take care....TC.
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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, leopard snakes, Great Plains ratsnakes, and corn snakes

Nice photo. And thanks for the info. Do you remember if that dark colored vulpina came from a habitat similar to what you expect to find gloydi in?

And that mandarin isn't so big. That's just a macro shot.

Regards
John

>>Nice photo. And thanks for the info. Do you remember if that dark colored vulpina came from a habitat similar to what you expect to find gloydi in?
>>
>>And that mandarin isn't so big. That's just a macro shot.
>>
>>Regards
>>John

Thanks, John.

No, gloydi is very different in habitat choice. It sticks mainly to the lowland marshes along the Great Lakes, although it does utilize river valleys to some extent, near the coast. They are very hard to find in the wild anymore, btw.

This snake was in the shed cycle. Also, the area is heavily wooded, except for the river valley....

Vulpina utilizes the high ground for both hunting and nesting sites, etc. It was found along the old railroad tracks that bisect our property. They have been found here before...

Vulpina stays in rodent burrows a lot. They also bask in openings in the woods and open fields. They are often found along roads as they utilize the open areas that are kept clear. But river valleys are the best, as well as coastal areas of Lake Michigan. So, I guess they are like gloydi in this respect, but are more inland too, and gloydi is not.

Cheers....TC

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, leopard snakes, Great Plains ratsnakes, and corn snakes