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Could this change everytrhing about feeding juvies? a MUST read!

DeanAlessandrini Jul 11, 2003 07:37 AM

At a herp meeting last night I heard an unbelievable tidbit from Robin Saunders of the Newport Aquarium.

Apparently she attended a talk presented by someone from the T-Rex company who has apparently made an amazing discovery. It is his belief that he has proven that you can “train” baby snakes to eat what you want them to eat while they are still in the egg. He has been doing this with baby cobras (possibly other snakes too) with success.

What you do is simply periodically rub the food item on the outside of the developing egg shell. We know that eggs absorb moisture through the shell, and the theory is that the scent comes through enough that the developing neonates actually imprint on this scent and take to it as food.

Easy to claim, hard to PROVE right?

Check this…supposedly…this guy…bear with me here and remember that I trust Robin’s word as gospel (I do, but I don’t know the T-rex guy). Anyway what I am about to say, he has done with both cobras and alligators…just to PROVE it works. Guys…he rubbed friggin strawberries on the eggs while they were developing as an experiment and actually got the baby cobras and alligators to eat strawberries right out of the egg. (pick yourself up off the floor now)

The only drawback I can see with trying this by using, for example, a pinky on a Dry egg would be the possibility of transmitting bacteria into the egg.

I think I need to dabble with this a bit and see what happens.

Replies (32)

dan felice Jul 11, 2003 12:17 PM

dean, i have drymarchon eggs about to hatch any day......and NOW, a pinkie defrosting on the kitchen window sill. lol! they are SO close to pipping that i highly doubt bacterial infection would be a factor at this point. i'll give it a whirl and report back next week. hopefully, it's not to late! for what it's worth, i've found that babies that eat before their first shed become better feeders and bigger adults down the road. so far i've only done this w/ bullsnakes to this point [they'll eat anything anytime] but the results have been DRAMATIC to say the least. thanks for the tip!!.........dannio

Fred Albury Jul 11, 2003 06:09 PM

Dean,

This raises some REALLY interesting issues, esp in light of the difficulty that we have in getting Drymarchon to fed INITIALLY (My experiences only). But, I find it a little odd that a Product rep for a major company put this forward, it sounds a lot like a marketing scheme(Excuse me for my jaded pessimism) But, if it works, that would be simply wonderfull, we could substitute hard to get food products like toads and chicks with chicken hearts or string mazzorella cheese! Lol. Seriously, I await to see the results of those here that are trying this with their clutches. If it works, I'll be the first to try it. Thansk to all you who bravely went forward with this experiment, please post your findings and thank you.

*Cheers*

Fred Albury

terdball Jul 11, 2003 07:13 PM

Marketing scheme....mmmuuuuaaahahahahahahahahaha! That's a good one.

regalringneck Jul 11, 2003 07:25 PM

Pity the trol is smart enuff to avoid a friendly nip by the regal...& it did actually pick a screenname that is accurate..proof that even a blind squirrel will in fact occasionally find a nut...
but his use of ANY Austin Powers bits...is unacceptable & thusly mojo is wearing dark sunglasses & heading East as we speak...to finally render this despicable offal that lurks below bridges...to soon become an even smelly-r squirt in the corner!
Oh yeah...
NEXT....

terdball Jul 11, 2003 07:41 PM

That's what I thought. Once again your suffocating drivel evades a conclusion. IF you should happen upon this lovely county of mine, please do drop me an e-mail ahead of time so there will be no misunderstandings. I wouldn't miss this for the world. NEXT!

scalawag Jul 12, 2003 12:51 PM

You poor senseless dwebe. The Austin Powers wrap was extremely funny coming from Austin Powers, but it is equally unfunny coming from you. Please figure this out on your own and put you and your mojo to bed. Your act is really tired. The forum could use a break.

Scalawag

regalringneck Jul 11, 2003 01:53 PM

Not 2 say someone shouldnt try it, as I doubt it could hurt anything...but if this were true.... lots of neonate wild snakes would be gobbling soil/sand/leaves/etc. For snakes that incubate-protect their eggs such as pythons & ringnecks...we should expect cannabalism!
Theres so little basis to believe any of this, I just couldnt be bothered to even experiment thusly.
As far as neonates feeding goes...if they are secure & the right food if offered, I've never known any that were difficult. Its the frighned neonate placed in the dixie cup w/ a european mouse pinky routine that causes so much grief & angst!
C&B...rr

DeanAlessandrini Jul 11, 2003 02:07 PM

I thought the same thing...that snakes would be eating dirt and vermiculite and each other...

but if the strawberry story is true...well...like you said, it's worth a shot.

Steve G Jul 11, 2003 11:13 PM

Dean.........If the embryos can be imprinted that easily, then why not place your pinks, fuzzies, etc. in a cup of their incubation substrate. How about the unfortunate clutch of eggs that get deposited in the wild beside a berry patch or heaven forbid.....a watermelon patch.......lol. Common sense tells me this is questionable science. I'm sure most of us would agree that these neonates are genetically imprinted from way back. There are plenty of tricks to jump start peculiar feeders. I know a breeder of mole kings that had a devil of a time getting neonates started. The trick was having a little terrarium with a couple of ground skinks. He'd put the pinks on the skinks substrate for a couple of hours to pick up the scent. They were accepted by the baby mole kings without hesitation. I'm sure you've heard about getting some neonate Brooks kings started can be tough. Scent those pinks with a rub from the skin of a Nerodia and presto eato. I know from personal experience that Indigos from south Florida love rat snakes. Have you tried keeping a small yellow rat or corn snake in your freezer for scenting purposes? However, I do wonder if an occasional strawberry for dessert would enhance their throat color.............heheheheh...........Steve G.

DeanAlessandrini Jul 11, 2003 11:57 PM

Steve:

I certainly agree tha it is very questionable science. I'm only quoting a story I heard.

But I do know this: although yes it's true that adult indigos love snakes...not all neonates take to snakes. Easterns are somewhat easier than these yellowtails that I produced for the first time this year...and from what I've heard from Dan Felice, it sounds like unis' are the same way.

The problem is that a few will start on pinks a few will start on snakes or frogs or toads or minnows or smelly smelt or bird scented pinks etc etc....but many will ONLY take that one specific item. Eventually and though scent mainipulation, you can get them all going, but then you need to have a freezer full of all of the above. Just because one goes for rat snake scented pinks...the rest may die of starvation before they do. This comes from 10 years of experience of working with juvinile Drymarchon.

It's simply NOT AS SIMPLE as some of you are making it out to be. I KNOW all the tricks, trust me. I've invented a lot of my own.

Getting a snake to imprint on a preferred item in the egg would take away a hell of a lot of work...if it's possible.

oldherper Jul 12, 2003 07:01 AM

Steve,
You may have answered your own question.

If snakes are imprinted with information regarding what's food and what's not, then maybe introducing scent during embryo development will reinforce and strengthen that particular scent imprint?

Steve G Jul 12, 2003 02:54 PM

Dean........I say give it a shot. Paint those eggs with mouse blood and see what happens. I think the risk of infection is pretty minimal. We have all seen fertile eggs attached to moldy slugs that hatch without incident. A fertile snake egg is pretty tough to kill as long as the humidity and temps are reasonable. I would like to see this theory put to a real test. As an example, if you could use this process to get mud snakes(Farancia) going on pinks right out of the egg, this would be a good test and raise some eyebrows. Plus the large number of eggs in a clutch(40-50 ) could set up a well controlled experiment. I'm sure there are commercially popular snakes that would benefit from success in this endeavor.......Heterodon and alterna certainly come to mind............good luck.............Steve G.

dan felice Jul 12, 2003 04:33 PM

one bait does not work well w/ all and it becomes a lot like work real quick. and if you don't stay on top of them [like 2 assist feedings/weekly], they will get dangerously thin on you and you're back to square one again. i can't compare to easterns but most uni's are fairly troublesome at first. once they get going though, the floodgates are open and they eat like they never saw food before. side note---baby corns or baby ratsnakes never reach the bottom of the cage if offered. baby uni's really, really like to eat other baby snakes apparently. even the most stubborn feeders EXPLODE into action when one is introduced but how long can you keep that up? if i thought scenting w/ eggplant would work, then i'd plant eggplant. anything but another 239 day sentence! another aside--- my eggs are now at day 112! great!! not only do my eggs refuse to hatch but when they do, they'll then refuse to eat......some fun huh?

dan felice Jul 11, 2003 02:48 PM

rr, i think you are being way too literal here.....i have to believe that any baby snake or turtle born/hatched below ground knows INSTICTIVELY that it's not supposed to eat dirt although that scent has been imprinted on the egg from the get-go. i've hatched hundreds and hundreds of snakes and turtles thru the years and have never seen one eat dirt yet or even try. this technique described by dean has distinct possibilities and anyone who has had to SUFFER thru getting 20/30 hatchling dryjoys to start eating rodents on their own year after year, this is definitely worth a shot. hear me now and believe me immediately.....it is NOT fun! one uni last year took me to 239 days until it decided it liked rodents. she would eat baby corns 24/7 though if allowed. i do not want to go thru that again!!! anyway, too late now as i already have smeared some of my eggs w/ pinkie guts. time will tell and i'm hoping it tells me to do it every time......dannio

regalringneck Jul 11, 2003 05:02 PM

& you may b lucky...but jeez them guts sounds downrite yucky!

Seriously Dan., I just cant see a working mechanism for this idea to have any validity, but yah-tah-hey, try it.

What I'd recommend tho, if you dont wanna mess w/ finnicky neonates is putting them in a plastic shoebox half full of damp aspen, w/ a cap of white paper towel & placing popcorn shrimp or live 5 week crickets, or live lizards, or goldfish in their waterbowl & just not fight it for the first 6 months. I used to fight these battles w/ my neonate mtn kings until I wised up & gave em lizards for the first year. Switching snakes over is easy using the cotton thread leader-trailer technique. This way you dont lose much of that first years tremendous growth.

I had a w/c rubber boa that refused f/t & live domestic (european) mice for 12 months .... I finally offered it & it took a dead wild deer mouse out of my hand.

Good luck in all your endeavors...rr

joncoote Jul 18, 2003 10:49 AM

What is "the cotton-thread lead trailer technique? I guess that I can imagine what it is, but please explain.

oldherper Jul 18, 2003 02:43 PM

That's where you just tie what you want the snake to eat to the back of something it WILL eat with a piece of white cotton thread, so that it eats the target food along with the other. After you do that a few times, the snake will begin eating the target food without problems. The thread causes no problems.

terdball Jul 11, 2003 07:11 PM

Hey Ringworm,
Errr, ummm, ooh,eeh,ooh ah ah...walla,walla bing bang. Not too long ago you publicly made it known that you wanted to teach me a lesson and that you made an offer (news to me at the time) to send airfare for me to come to your neck of the woods. Surely the "core" remembers that post. Since we traded e-mails and I had to endure the excuses and diversions(sound like someone else here???), I to date have not recieved those tickets after giving you my address. That's all the info you needed. So don't sweat it bro'. I see what you're made of. Perhaps someday you can come around these parts(you have my address) and we'll do lunch. Toodles.

wintermute Jul 11, 2003 03:12 PM

I remember reading something about egg-scenting in Vivarium magazine a few years ago, and I found this on Kingsnake.com chat transcripts:
http://www.kingsnake.com/chat/joncoote.html
This is from 1999(!), and they are still talking about the strawberry thing. I haven't seen anything newer than this...don't know if that means people have tried it and the results have been less than spectacular, but it seems that some of the grey-band people would have jumped all over this if it was as simple and sure-fire as these reports make it seem.
Link

dryguy Jul 11, 2003 04:42 PM

But since you're one of the few, the mighty, the proud, the lucky, who were successful in some breedings this year I can't wait to hear how it works for you...And Dante, too..CG
-----
Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

bobl Jul 11, 2003 04:48 PM

I never heard of this theory, but I will try it on half of my YT eggs. On the other half I'll leave all but one unscented.
I'll scent with fish on the last egg.
That should tell me something as to whether this works or not.

Bobby

chrish Jul 11, 2003 11:59 PM

If this really works, why bother using fish extracts which could invite a bacterial overgrowth on the egg?

I would use something like vanilla extract that is relatively volatile and would cross the membranes pretty well. Then you could dip pinkies in vanilla extract and see if you get a higher response rate from those snakes.

To be scientific, you would need four groups within the clutch. Half would get painted a couple of times the last two weeks of incubation and then the other half wouldn't.

Group 1 - babies that were exposed to vanilla and offered vanilla scented pinkies for their first meal
Group 2 - babies the were exposed to vanilla and offered unscented pinkies for the first meal
Group 3 - unexposed babies offered vanilla scented pinkies
Group 4 - unexposed babies offered unscented pinkies

That would certainly tell you whether the effect was real or not.
-----
Chris Harrison

DeanAlessandrini Jul 12, 2003 12:01 AM

THAT is something to try.

I may have to give something like that a try. If it works...well..the proof will be in the vanilla pudding.

shadindigo Jul 12, 2003 12:28 AM

Let us know how it turns out.

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

regalringneck Jul 13, 2003 07:36 AM

Ah... the machinations of the analytical mind...
I might add to Chris's thoughtful post; that if those volatile vanilla compounds were oils & thus obstructed gas exchange across the shell...you might wind up w/ a half clutch of dead guardian embryos...w/ biota this precious...one should always anticipate that the law of unintended consequences will raise its ugly head...

chrish Jul 14, 2003 01:01 PM

I would just place a dot of vanilla on the appropriate egg. If this really works, it surely can't require much vanilla to get the "message" across.
-----
Chris Harrison

Carmichael Jul 12, 2003 05:48 PM

First, we know that captive alligators in Florida (St. Augustine Alligator Farm) have been known to pluck apples off of trees; who knows, perhaps there's something missing in their diet (or the prey contents of the animals they eat). And we thought these were strict carnivores. We also have very little data on imprintation and egg development of WILD eggs and how they recognize food from non food items (most likely, subtle environmental and physiological cues are factors). So, perhaps, as whacky as it sounds, developing eggs can become imprinted on a prey item....yes, I have to admit I am skeptical but without any solid scientific evidence, I will hold my opinion until more trials are done. This field/hobby is a never ending quest to make new discoveries.

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation

dryguy Jul 13, 2003 03:46 PM

Those of you who are going to try this, I don't think contamination or infection would be any big issue...These are already strong eggs having survived to the "last 2 weeks" whenever that might be!...I think doing a smear of mouse brain would be preferrable given the technique of "braining" seems at least moderately successful in getting babies off the schnide...You could avoid any possible bacteria from the gut, etc...

Another thought...What about the placement of the "scent"? It would seem somewhat intuitive that it should be placed on the underside of the egg, since that is the most likely spot of the reptile placental equivilent and perhaps carry the scent with more gusto...Assuming you are among the believers that you never rotate or re-allign an egg once it has been deposited...

What about trying hotdogs?? Could you imagine how easy that would be, if it worked? (All beef for those of you who are Muslim or Jewish by faith!!!) What a hoot a 8' Indigo would at a baseball game!! They'd be attacking the vendors in the stands on "Pet Night" at your hometown minor league ballpark!!! Good Luck..
-----
Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

Doug T Jul 13, 2003 05:32 PM

I'm wondering if it actually needs to be placed on the egg, or if a flavoring is just placed into the substrate, if the effect is the same.

Doug T

joncoote Jul 18, 2003 09:26 AM

Scenting Eggs for Embryonic Training- a quantum leap for reptile breeders
by Jon Coote, Director of Research & Development, T-Rex Products

Herpetoculture, the captive husbandry and reproduction of captive reptiles and amphibians, has advanced mainly by steady evolutionary developments and less commonly by quantum leaps of new ideas and discoveries. Examples of these quantum leaps are our abilities to now accurately determine the sex of reptiles and the fact that varying environmental conditions, particularly of temperature, encourage a successful reproductive response. Our increasing knowledge of nutritional requirements, and especially of the vital requirements for adequate levels of vitamin D3 and calcium, are more evolutionary, and have contributed particularly to the success of lizard husbandry. These evolutionary developments are because our understanding of herpetocultural nutrition can be initially extrapolated from research on other captive vertebrate species.

Perhaps the main sense that reptiles employ in their daily interactions with each other and their environment are their sense of smell. The importance of their sense of smell cannot be under estimated in their function to allow them to identify that which is edible. This can be a problem in herpetoculture which effectively limits the species that we can successfully maintain and reproduce.

Many species have particular food preferences as juveniles which are not shared by the adults. So it may be possible for us to successful keep the adults but then find that it is impossible to get subsequent hatchlings to feed voluntarily. A good example is the African Tiger snake, Telescopus semiannulatus, adults of which has been persuaded to initially take small mice using the new T-Rex Lizard Maker scent, and then transferred to taking unscented small mice without further problem. Captive bred hatchlings have proved to be more intractable to get feeding, although as yet the T-Rex Lizard scent has not been available to use with them.

So if there was a reliable new technique to encourage hatchling reptiles to take foods that are easily available, and equally nutritious and digestible to that which they would normally eat in the wild, it would increase the number of species that could become part of mainstream herpetoculture. It would have to be a technique that could utilise easily available manufactured scents or flavours that are currently available, and preferably those flavours would be of prey species that are normally fed to captive reptiles, such as the range from T-Rex, which, as well as the new Lizard Maker mentioned above, also includes Mouse Maker and Cricket Maker. These flavours are also readily available from the pet trade to subsequent purchasers of hatchlings that had been educated to feed voluntarily using them.

The unpublished work of a PhD student, Helga Sneddon, and other members of a team under the supervision of Professor Peter Hepper, in the School of Psychology, Queen’s University, Belfast, UK, may have established just such a technique during their research into embryonic learning. They have discovered that they can influence the feeding response of hatchling crocodiles by exposing them to manufactured food smells before they hatch. The project was in part designed to help the captive reproduction of endangered crocodilians by encouraging an active feeding response in hatchlings, which frequently are unenthusiastic in their response to available foods.

The decision was made, for research purposes, to experiment with a flavour which would normally be entirely unnatural to a crocodile. For this reason the flavour chosen was strawberry as this could be assumed to be an abhorrent flavour for such a confirmed carnivore as a crocodile. Fruit eating crocodiles are unrecorded, other than where incidental or accidental ingestion has taken place.

The artificial strawberry flavour was painted onto the incubating crocodile eggs for an exposure period of sixteen days prior to hatching. At ten days after hatching the baby crocodiles were offered two dishes of the same food, but with one flavoured with the artificial strawberry flavour. More than six out of ten of the baby crocodiles voluntarily opted for the dish of food flavoured with strawberry. These baby crocodiles had already developed a taste and acceptance for strawberry flavour before they had ever eaten for the first time.

I am not sure how pleased customers of most captive bred carnivorous or insectivorous reptiles would feel about hatchlings that required something as bizarre as artificial strawberry flavour on their food.

Professor Hepper said: “There is a conservation interest with crocodiles in this work. To conserve the species it may well be that, if you can get them to eat more readily after hatching, there is a greater chance of survival. If we can add something to the food that they have been exposed to in the egg we may be able to get them to eat more.”

The same research team has employed this embryonic learning technique to chickens. Exposed to strawberry flavour whilst still in the egg during incubation they went on to show a marked preference for strawberry flavoured food. Professor Hepper hopes that the technique can be useful in pre-determining what foods animals can best be given to eat.

The team also studied similar effects in human babies. Twelve babies were exposed to garlic flavour whilst still foetuses in the womb. Garlic was chosen because it is a sensory stimulus that can cross the placenta and reach the foetus. Babies normally demonstrate marked avoidance of anything flavoured with garlic. Those twelve experimentally exposed to it prior to birth were subsequently far more tolerant of the smell of garlic when exposed to it on a cotton bud.

Professor Hepper’s research team is interested in all aspects of early learning. They aim to investigate all animal groups to see if the same effects of pre-hatch or embryonic learning are present. To date all vertebrate species investigated appear to show the same effect.

The implications of the general adoption of this truly quantum leap technique by herpetoculturalists promises to ease the captive raising of existing, problematic, captive bred species, whilst opening the door to new species previously considered practically impossible to get feeding as hatchlings. Already similar experiments conducted with T-Rex’s Mouse Maker have encouraged an active feeding response on pinkies for the subsequent hatchlings of Corn snakes, from parents that previously routinely produced difficult hatchling feeders. I await the future with interest to see how effective and wide ranging this revolutionary technique will prove to be in successful herpetoculture.

Jon Coote is T-Rex’s Director of Research & Development and is responsible for the introduction of the current T-Rex Products Inc. range of artificial flavours for captive reptiles.

joncoote Jul 21, 2003 04:49 PM

I've posted a copy of the article on this subject that I wrote some time ago at the end of the thread.

There are increasing numbers of herpers experimenting with this. Results to date appear to mainly positive but I have yet to see anyone publish their results. I live in hope!

okeeteedude Jul 23, 2003 12:17 PM

rub on Scarlet Kingsnake eggs? Almost everything is too big...
Make slivers of chicken or something? I can't believe I'm thinking about this....
Someone tell me they did this and it worked for them please...!!!

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