Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently Moved here to West Texas (San Angelo) And as a rule, The people here are incredibly nice and polite. But, when it comes to herping People are down right A$$holes.

Twice now I have been hassled in my few trips out herping. Twice while on 163 I was harassed by a train of locals in pickups running up and down the road in front of me. 4 trucks total, purposely turning around in front of me and behind me to apparently kill anything that may be in my path. This would continue for about an hour both times. Fortunately they wheren't sucsesfull as I was able to recover a male lepidus and hatchling transpecos rat on one of the trips.

The next was last night. While driving through a small town in Pecos county, I stopped to ID a small snake in the road, when a local pulled out of nowhere and whipped around in front of me via the shoulder and stopped right in front of our vehicle. He asked "What the hell do you think your doing?!". I stated "We stopped to ID a small snake" and I reached down to pick it up. He said "The F---k you are!" and proceeded to spray the snake with some form of spray and then turned and sprayed me in the face temporarily blinding me. It was either bug spray or oven cleaner, not real sure. It burned either way.

I scrambled in to the car and grabbed my snake hook in a state of anger and shock to defend my self and he spun around in his vehicle and attempted to charge us with it. We took off as he pursued and finally lost him a few minutes later. We where in such shock that all we wanted to do is get home, but in hind site, we should have went straight to the police station and reported it. The guy was sitting off the side of the road in a small red tracker,sidekick,raider sort of vehicle. BE CAREFULL when out there.

I absolutely love it here, but so far have had pretty bad luck when it comes to a peacefully night out herping........

Can you please tell me what town you were in? The trucks on Juno are most likely tire testers. They literally test tires on small trucks. Should be about 4 or 5 of them in all. They run real fast and will probably have dead animals all over the front of the trucks. They do this Monday through Friday.

I am more concerned about the red tracker or whatever. I have been going out west since 1992. I live in the DFW area. Again if you can state what town you were in and also if you got the license number. It would only take about 4 minutes to find out all the information you needed to take to the police. In you post were they chasing you or you chasing them?

I am super sorry you encountered such bad folks. For the most part I have had little problems but you never know.

Steven

Hi Steven, thanks for the reply. I was in the Town of Sheffield. I didn't get a plate number as my eyesight was hindered for quite a while. And to clarify, he was chasing us. After being sprayed I grabbed my hook in an attempt to defend myself and that is when he charged us with his vehicle causing us to flee. We had no idea what lengths he would go to to keep us from being there. We where in a small cavalier and while he wasn't in a large vehicle he was more prepared to do damage then we where. He had a large brushgaurd on the front of his vehicle and again we had no idea what he was prepared to do.

One on One would have been different as I am 6' and 275lbs. But vehicle to vehicle is not my idea of fun or a good time.

Thanks again for your concern and reply!

Be assured I will keep an eye out. I don't go to sheffield as often as other folks like Troy H or maybe Kenny but I will keep an eye out for anyone with that type of vehicle out west. That is absolutely ridiculous. Imagine if your eye had been damaged or something. They better hope they don't try that on folks that are packing heat.

I hope you have some better luck out west. I can't tell you how much I enjoy that area. Juno (fm 163) is a fun road to hunt but the tire testers are tough to compete with. Pandale road may be another option for you. The lepidus in the area are awesome. If you are looking for alterna they are found sparsely throughout the area but the S curve are on Juno seems to be the best spot. I caught my first alterna at the S-curves.

Best wishes to you and keep us posted... I will keep small RED SUV engraved in my mind.

Steven Owens

Hi Steven, Thanks again for the post. In my short time of being here I have realy fallen in love with 163. It's not overly productive, but what you find is worth going for. I am not into alterna at all. I am into leps. Missed a great young female last night that would have been a great mate for my male, but the tire testers got it before me. Sigh!! I brought it home as it was still moving and I had hopes, but this morning it passed on. Also missed another neonate transpecos. The tire testers are rough on the wildlife in the area!

Thanks again for your advice and be safe yourself. It's tough when you try to be a respectfull herper ie: not hopping fences, destroying property, etc. and you get assaulted like that. I am sure it is not the norm and I will keep that in the back of my head. And thanks again for the heads up on the tire testers. That must be what they are as they where out again last night and how could they possibly know to be out there every time I am, right??? LOL....Take care and maybe I will see ya out there.

Scott

P.s. I will post pics here maybe later today of the leps. The one that made it and the one that didn't....

The Male lep that made it...Please excuse the horrible pic. very cheap 3 megapixle camera.....

The dor female......

First of all on the assault you need to file a police report right now. Make the phone call and just do it.

Second, it is unlawful for anybody to interfere with a lawful hunt. Report this to the Game Warden any time it happens and expect him to issue citations, anything less and he is not doing his job and you should report him as well. You need to document this though and a digital camera that does movies is the best way to go. At least write down license plates and descriptions on a notepad.

And as a bonus, I would advise anybody that prowls the West Texas Wilds in the dark to night to get a CHL. It is better to be judged twelve than carried by six.

I agree 100% with the packing heat sentiment. You never know who you can run into when your out in the middle of nowhere and some weirdo assualts you like that. The laws are restrictive here in California about carrying a gun in the car. I have spoken to wardens and sheriff deputies out here in CA about this issue and they all to a person have said that they will not write you up for carrying a gun in the car whether it be concealed or out in the open. Just make sure you are not a threat to them if you get pulled over. Show them the respect of putting your hands on the steering wheel. I made sure I wrote down all the names of the LE that told me this just in case I ever get hassled about it. Most have told me that you are basically negligent for not arming yourself when your out in remote areas. 911 is not going to save your ass. Boy scout motto....be prepared.
Link

To be beyond question with a handgun I would advise that you get your concealed handgun license. There are provisions that allow you to pack heat while traveling and participating in a sporting activity (like hunting) but those laws can be vague and no guarantee to keep you out of legal trouble.

On the other hand, you can be out in public with a loaded long gun such as a rifle or shotgun with no hassle. That is legal as long as you do not threaten anybody with it.

To all, good luck, be safe, and use good judgment.

Lance

Lance,
What are the chances of them looking at things a little different when you are in possession of both a gun and hunting license? Could they give you a hard time by trying to call it hunting from a public roadway even though you are not using the gun to hunt? I know it's against the law to discharge a firearm for the purpose of hunting on a public roadway. But in this case the firearm would not be for hunting,just for protection. Just a thought.

Steve

Same reason you can carry it to fish (another lawful sporting event). It is just as illegal to discharge a firearm across some bodies of water as it would be on a public roadway. But that does not make it illegal to have to have the firearm.

The sticky part is that there is so much of a grey area here that to carry a handgun on you while collecting reptiles I would advise first getting your CHL. And as always a long gun is legal without a CHL unless you take it into an area that all fire arms are prohibited like a national park.

Gotcha. I just didn't want to get accused of hunting from a roadway because of a "hunting" license in my posession. Thanks.

Steve

from a non-resident with handgun : you all remember my several post on being ticketed by park ranger and with DEA and with me having a clipped firearm while traveling the park one night and within reach. I was able to keep the gun. While on 385 one night got stopped by deputy sheriff and had gun run through the computer to see if I was wanted or the gun was wanted. I was able to keep the gun and was told that I was fine with handgun but not clipped or chambered. Last year we asked a game warden and highway patrolman on what was legal and was told this > while they would prefer the permit possession, if we kept one piece of the firearm from being within easy reach and didn't have it on the dash or seat or something like this, we would probably be alright. But they both said that was them and couldn't say if anybody else from whatever agency would see it the same way. I've now been stopped 4 times while in Texas ( Brewster and Presidio counties ) with firearm and only went through a semi-hassle. While this has been up before on several forums and several times, I haven't heard of anybody ever really of gotten in trouble for carrying a firearm while hunting herps. Anybody out there ?

As far as I know it makes no difference at all if the firearm is loaded, chambered, clipped, whatever.

The bottom line is will you get in trouble for having it at all:

National Parks are an example of a place that will prohibit firearms under any circumstances from what I understand.

Residency is not an issue for possession of a handgun, in fact Texas has reciprocity agreements with a number of states to carry a concealed firearm. I can look at any give time to tell you what other states license is honored, but it would take some research to find out which state would be easiest to get set up in as a non-resident. Off hand I would start looking at Florida, I know they are recognized and will do it by mail for non-residents.
There are also provisions for possession while participating in a lawful sporting event such as hunting or fishing, as well as while traveling. But these are open to wide interpretation such as when you check into your motel while traveling you should leave the handgun there, not take it with you around town etc. And on the lawful sporting event, you can get a different opinion from each LE / Judge / JP you ask.
Best option is to get a recognized CHL for the state and then you have nothing to worry about, carry it chambered if you feel like it (not debating the general safety of that option, just the legality).

In Texas, you can carry a long gun, such as a shotgun or rifle as long as you’re not using it in a threatening or menacing manner. Once again, this has nothing to do with residency. It is open to some interpretation there, but not much to worry yourself with if you use common sense. This of course does not count where guns are prohibited such as a polling place or a national park. This has no relevance to hunting or the fact that you have a hunting license, it is not TP&W code.

As always this is my personal understanding of the law, I am not an authority. Do your own research and be responsible for your own actions.

The more I look at this comment:

"Here in Texas, maybe depends on who you get stopped by ?"

The more it bothers me, when my liberty is at stake I do not like the idea of leaving up to an officers judgement. What if the last guy he stopped really pissed him off?

I still haven't heard from anybody that went through a horrific encounter on this subject. I also think that being stopped and by your scenario Lance, would be the way one would act or maybe even look by the person that stops you. Call it " racial profiling " or whatever. I'm not saying be illegal at all on driving around with handgun/s. I'm stating only my experience. EXACTLY RIGHT on interpretation and perceived on this just as all the years of hunting reptiles in Texas and being up to the scrutiny of the stopping person/agency/law enforcement. Just because you are legal with permit doesn't mean that some pissed off law person isn't going to site you for something else. Wouldn't you agree ? In fact that is how the citation happened on my handgun. I was stopped out side the park in Study Butte by the chasing lady park ranger and DEA person. Chasing meaning that is what she said in order to catch up with me as i was leaving the Castolon. Even with no reptiles or reptile related catching devices and with camera equipment, she wanted something from me.

The firearm in the park is a No-No.

My concern though would be why did they feel the need to pull you over and search the vehicle? In my opinion things like "behaviour consistent with a snake hunter" will not fly when put to a jury. If you were speeding or they saw you pick something up (enven a piece of litter) then they may have something to work with. But just being there is no excuse to me...

How did the whole thing turn out? What reason did they give for the stop and search?

one reason was the vehicle in which i had not even thought about. It was a small conversion van ( not as gaudy as i remember B. Applegates though ) with dark windows and multiple light equipment. I had my hunting lights on and could be seen from very far places. Also there was drugs moving in and around the park we found out later. And for the simple fact that we were observed to drive a small stretch of road several times. I guess that they ( park ranger ) was observing this hidden ? Evidently we passed them while they were heading to Castolon on road as we were leaving and this made them suspicious. I also guess that they waited to see if we were going to return on another reverse but we didn't and this also made them suspicious. So basically it took that much time for them to catch up with us. She said that we HAD to be speeding to get out of the park after we saw them but she couldn't prove the rate of speed ( we wasn't though ). $100 fine payable to Atlanta Georgia ( the home office of Federal Parks ? ) and while I thought of fighting it, didn't. On this same trip after being stopped by numerous other agencies, I finally asked the border patrolman ( that stopped us ) at the junction of 90 and Juno road why he stopped us when we came out of Juno road and not when we went in, and he said the van looked to be suspicious and he had a reasonable suspicion to make a stop/check.

.

Lance,

I did find out that you can take a rifle with you collecting. If it is in the car it has to be unloaded if it is within reach.
The officer said the best advice is to keep it in a bag, unchambered and unloaded with the ammo away from the rifle. This way their is no question as to your intent. However, this also defeats the purpose of having something close to your person in case of emergency.

Go figure...

Anyway I also heard some other various things about the pistols... Like you said, it is best to just get the CHL.

I will be out next week and will be taking the Ruger PC-9.

Take Care,

Steven

One important part is:

Vehicle Carry and Transportation: Unlicensed individuals and non-residents may not carry handguns on or about their persons while in a vehicle (specific exemption for bonafide travelers); loaded rifles and shotguns may be carried in plain view or in a case. NOTE: It is up to the individual to prove they are a bonafide traveler.

And again:

Texas law exempts individuals who are carrying handguns for self-protection while traveling the state on a "bonafide" journey or engaged in a lawfully related firearm activity such as hunting or target shooting. Although police should not arrest an individual who falls in these restrictions, any doubt on the part of law enforcement could result in delays or being held or arrested. Travelers unable to maintain the classification of a "bonafide traveler" should carry their handgun unloaded, cased and locked in the trunk. Texas law contains no prohibition on the transport of loaded rifles and shotguns. Such firearms may be carried in plain view anywhere in the vehicle or secured in a commercial gun case or gun rack.

So with that PC-9, lock and load, ready to rock and roll....
TSRA info

Everytime I have visited the Val Verde County area I get stopped and questioned, and sometimes hassled by LE there. I even had Border Patrol question why I would drive from Dallas to visit the desert. My response that I enjoyed being in the area just seemed to make him more suspicious, which made gave him the incentive to completely "tear" through my vehicle. I suppose my sarcasm didn't help either when he pulled up my carpeting and I said it would have to be a really small Mexican to hide under there. When I told him I was looking for reptiles his response was that there are alot of sick minded people from the city and he guessed I was one of them. On another trip, along HWY 90 nature called and I spotted an area where the fence was down along with some cover so I wouldn't be flashing the passing traffic. I carried a small hook with me just incase. As I was leaving the area a TPW officer pulled up. He asked what I was doing, which I explained, along with the fact I was on a herp finding trip. He told me I was tresspassing and that gave him the right to search my vehicle, confiscate all my collecting equipment, the couple of animals I had collected, and cited me for tresspassing, a class C misdemeanor. The fine was $350.00
Sorry to say, I haven't been back since. I suppose I'll never find an alterna due to the hassle everytime I try.
Anyone else out there have this much trouble down there?
Bob

But I keep going back.

Are you from out of state? That seems to be a big "screw with me bullseye" on you if you are from out of state. They think you are not as informed on your rights and their authority. And that anything they do will just be paid because you will not come back to fight the citation.

Personally, I would love to see more people come from out of state to herp, visit and just enjoy some time away from the big city.

Lance

At the time when I got the screwing from TPW, I had just relocated to Dallas but still had Florida plates and a Florida DL. So, yes, he definately targeted me as being from out of state. He even questioned the fact that I had a resident hunting license but appeared to be from Florida. He asked me to prove I lived in TX and got pissed when I couldn't produce any proof to his liking. All in all it was a big time hassle and with him constantly referring to his ability to arrest me right there and take me to jail. I had a female companion with me and didn't want her to end up stranded out there, so I was polite and didn't resist anything the asswad had to say. I was just happy for the two of us to get out of there without any jail bond having to be made.
We subsequently left the area and headed south and east towards Laredo and had a good time finding alot of herps.
Bob

N/P

Knock on wood, most of my experiences out in West Texas have been positive. I wanted to give some tips (especially) for those out of towners... Some will disagree with these but hey... Take em or leave em.

1. If you get pulled over, always be courteous to the LE agent.
These guys are pulling over someone in the middle of nowhere. Yes they are going to be suspicous because you too are in the middle of nowhere. Mind your manners and be polite. Also it helps to stick both hands out of the car and roll down all the windows so they can see in. Be honest, and normally everything goes well. They don't really need probable cause to search your vehicle because lets face it, your in the middle of nowhere and that is probably PC enough.

2. Under no circumstances should you jump a fence or cross a fence. Even if nature is calling climb a cut or something. Many complaints have been made about herpers climbing fences. Everytime someone does it makes us look bad.

3. If you are cruising try these things to keep you from getting a ticket...
a. If you are driving on a large highway and see a car coming in the other direction, speed up. Then you don't appear to be cruising.
b. If you are driving slower than 45 (minimum speed limit)on the highway and someone comes up behind you, get over quickly and wave them around you. If you are pulled over for driving slow you can always say that you thought you saw a deer or something.
c. Regardless of what type of road you are on pull over to the side if you see something moving. Otherwise you will probably get a ticket if caught.
d. If you see other cars coming then don't pull a U-Turn in the road. Wait until everyone goes past you.
e. Turn your brights off if you see other cars.
f. If you are pulled over while "cruising" you are never crusing, merely "looking" for the next good place to pull over and observe animals.

4. If (god forbid) you are spotlighting cuts turn you light off if you see cars coming. Most of the time you can hear and see cars coming way before they can get to you. I can tell you now I have personally seen "out of state folks" get a ticket for this one. Complain all you want but shining bright lights at cars will probably piss someone off.

5. Last, if you see people walking cuts and you want to pull over and talk, identify yourself and light yourself up. In fantasy land I know bad things don't happen to people but in the middle of nowhere they do. Be courteous, identify yourself and light yourself up so the person walking can see you.

Most important have fun and observe lots of animals. I know some will disagree with what I've said and that is fine. I have rarely been pulled over by LE and never actually harassed by LE.
I know we are all out to observe animals and not to break laws.

Best of luck to everyone,

Steven

Knock on wood, most of my experiences out in West Texas have been positive. I wanted to give some tips (especially) for those out of towners... Some will disagree with these but hey... Take em or leave em.

1. If you get pulled over, always be courteous to the LE agent.
These guys are pulling over someone in the middle of nowhere. Yes they are going to be suspicous because you too are in the middle of nowhere. Mind your manners and be polite. Also it helps to stick both hands out of the car and roll down all the windows so they can see in. Be honest, and normally everything goes well. They don't really need probable cause to search your vehicle because lets face it, your in the middle of nowhere and that is probably PC enough.

2. Under no circumstances should you jump a fence or cross a fence. Even if nature is calling climb a cut or something. Many complaints have been made about herpers climbing fences. Everytime someone does it makes us look bad.

3. If you are cruising try these things to keep you from getting a ticket...
a. If you are driving on a large highway and see a car coming in the other direction, speed up. Then you don't appear to be cruising.
b. If you are driving slower than 45 (minimum speed limit)on the highway and someone comes up behind you, get over quickly and wave them around you. If you are pulled over for driving slow you can always say that you thought you saw a deer or something.
c. Regardless of what type of road you are on pull over to the side if you see something moving. Otherwise you will probably get a ticket if caught.
d. If you see other cars coming then don't pull a U-Turn in the road. Wait until everyone goes past you.
e. Turn your brights off if you see other cars.
f. If you are pulled over while "cruising" you are never crusing, merely "looking" for the next good place to pull over and observe animals.

4. If (god forbid) you are spotlighting cuts turn you light off if you see cars coming. Most of the time you can hear and see cars coming way before they can get to you. I can tell you now I have personally seen "out of state folks" get a ticket for this one. Complain all you want but shining bright lights at cars will probably piss someone off.

5. Last, if you see people walking cuts and you want to pull over and talk, identify yourself and light yourself up. In fantasy land I know bad things don't happen to people but in the middle of nowhere they do. Be courteous, identify yourself and light yourself up so the person walking can see you.

Most important have fun and observe lots of animals. I know some will disagree with what I've said and that is fine. I have rarely been pulled over by LE and never actually harassed by LE.

Best of luck to everyone,

Steven

I would like to say something about self-defense in Texas.

Rule #1 (and this is the golden rule): You have a duty to retreat. If you can safely walk away from the conflict instead of using force you must do so. This duty to retreat however does not apply to your residence, which I am pretty sure could be your hotel room since you are renting it.

Rule #2: If you cannot retreat safely then you should make every possible effort to prevent the situation from escalating. Talking is the key here, not yelling or making threats. In fact you may have to pretend to agree with a complete idiot at this point to keep from having to take action.

Rule #3: If you ever do use force in self-defense it is expensive, even when it is 100% justified. It still has a legal process attached to it, and you can end up fighting a civil battle as well.

Reality #1: With duty to retreat that does not mean you should have to drive away at a high rate of speed or turn your back on an aggressor. You are only expected to make a safe exit. But at the same time you are not to escalate anything or hold your ground for the sake of pride. This can turn into a catch 22 with a determined aggressor. (Florida recently changed their law so that you no longer have “Duty to Retreat”, just a side FYI that is in the news now)

Reality #2: The only things that may work are “yes sir” “no sir” and “I am leaving right now sir”. If that does not work I am not sure what else you can try to talk an aggressor down.

Reality #3: It is very, very expensive to win any court case, just remember that part.

I have read all the posts, and I agree it is best to carry and have an "argument at hand" then to be standing there holding a piece of aluminum with a rubber handle. You have been lucky never to have had a problem, the one time you do will be the time you wished you had a firearm to pull out and discourage any further aggression. The mere sight of one will take the wind out of many sails. Have a troop of illegals surround you and ask for help in the desert some evening and tell me having a pistola on your hip doesnt make you feel alittle safer. It did for me and I have never gone out without it again,unless Im in a park and even then I carry a blade and a can of bearspray.
Its a whole new world compared to when Kauffeld and Klauber were beating the bushes.
Lat

especially with the drug trafficking. It's only a matter of time that we will read about some herper getting it ( i really hope not though ) by some drug runner or something like that. Heck, some of us are lucky in those other years to not be in a situation that put in that scenario according to what i remember in the Bend region and in that book titled , Drug lord, the life and times of a mexican kingpin, Pablo Acosta. Very few of us in those days knew what was going down in Lajitas, RR and in the park. The book sure explained why i was asked to leave RR by the Mickey Moused tee shirt auto-matic weapon carrying DEAs. Also I would like to thank ol' Ray Duncan for not even warning us at the time. Wait a minute , I have the fortunate or maybe un-fortunate to speak to Ray from time to time when he contacts me on another pyramid scheme ? LOL !