Reptile & Amphibian Forums

According to Pete Kahl's new website, he has no less than one hundred (100) Piebalds for sale.

Hmm...

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market is the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking the Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

And pricing?
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

They are between $6500-$10000 each.

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market is the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking the Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

must be 2003's lol
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Pete is the number one producer of Pieds. Since he is not going to "Crash" the market, I don't think we need to worry.

What would you consider a crash anyway? Do you think they are going to be $1000? Even an albino isn't that much yet, and Pieds are nicer.

I doubt that we will ever produce enough Pieds to supply the demand. They will be over $1500 years from now.

"I doubt that we will ever produce enough Pieds to supply the demand."

These are obviously not 2005 babies. That means they are left over from 2004 clutches. Obviously the demand has been left in the dust.

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market is the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking the Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

All those animals are not for sale. They all may be available, but he is holding alot back. Since it does not matter what they look like as far as the genetics go, he doesn't care which one he sells.

Another thing, Pete is smart....unlike all the people that dump their animals right after they hatch. He holds onto his animals since he knows they will go up in price as they grow. Why cut the price, if he will get more when they get bigger?

Are you trying to say that the demand sucks since he is not sold out? I'm not sold out of a lot of things since last year, and I'll get more money for them because of it. Should I have cut my price to sell out early? I guess that's what a bad or broke business man would do. The demand for Pieds is always going to be there.

I agree that the demand for Pieds will always be there. After all, this is America's favorite morph. I'm just saying that 100 is a LOT of extras.

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market is the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking the Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

Just because you have 2004 animals for sale, does not mean you COULDN'T sell them in 2004, or that the demand has dried up. I still have about 45 animals left from 2004, but I haven't put up a single ad for them. I just like selling them here and there, plus I always like to have some stuff available when people call. Constantly saying "I don't have anything for sale" isn't a good thing, and neither is dumping all your snakes in August for wholesale prices. Its not bad, its just not for me.

You'd be surprised at how many '04's and '03's that snake breeders still have for up for grabs. Much better than having a fire sale every September. Yikes.

Jeff, I agree with you 100% Mark Petros

Ha ha its nice to know that I'm not fully "out to lunch", LOL! or at least I'm not dining alone if I am, ha ha!

Cheers,

JF

Actually, yes, Pete having 100 left over pieds for sale means exactly that: he COULD NOT sell them at the price listed. Do you think he was turning away customers? It amuses me every time this argument starts. People like to use the price history of the albino as an example for every new morph on the market to follow. The problem is there are so many more people breeding snakes now that it is not a valid comparison. Plus, back then there was only one morph in which to “invest”. Conservatively estimate the population of morphs doubles every year and it is not difficult to see the market saturating quickly. I like the argument that the price decline is the fault of the impatient breeder who failed to plan properly. Just how long is acceptable to hold onto your offspring before dropping your price? Should you hold onto it a year, and try to sell it then when the available supply is twice what it is now? Especially males, which are breedable in a year anyway? Make no mistake: every person who advertises a snake on this website would rather get more money for it than less. Pressuring people to keep their prices will only work short term, and only make the inevitable drop steeper because prices will adjust to meet demand. Guaranteed, this argument will come up more and more frequently.

lol

Crash or no crash.... I'll still be breeding my balls! They are fun!

I think over the next few years many of the "investors" will bail and this may soften the market some, but the enthusiast/breeder who continues to work with his stock and produce good quality stock and mind-blowing designers will always makes good cash selling these cool a** animals.

By the way... if anyone starts selling these animals cheap, I doubt it will be Pete.

Be Cool...

Oz
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OZZYBOIDS

I totally agree. This is what I was saying in the Albino Market thread below. Once everyone else bails...there's only VPI, NERD, Bob Clark and...ME!!! =)

Chris =)
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“The problem with the Ball Python market is the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking the Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

Chicken little the sky is falling LOL

I'm working with pieds, from pete, and I don't care if I sell any, I love breeding Balls!!!!!! (have a day job)

Can't wait for the first pied head popping out LOL

But the sky is not falling anyway IMO

enjoy the animals

TomChambers

Er... I mean boo!
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Murphy's Laws:
"Nothing is as easy as it looks."
"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong."

Lets make a deal!!!! Hey Pete..if you have over 100 Pieds for sale...letting one go for $1500 isn't too bad!!!!! Thats $100000.00 .....not too bad!

What if i offered a hundred more than that ...huh? lol
Then there are the rest of those other folks that will give a hundred more than that,and so on,and so forth...hence..."market-price".
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Charles Glaspie

Great response! (You beat me to it).
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www.strictlyballs.ca

...only by a day.

Thanks
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Charles Glaspie

I don't get over to the forums much anymore. I am always in for a good chuckle when I check in though
Pete has some pieds... wow! Pete is smart and like most of the big breeders is not afraid to put an animal on the shelf rather than giving it away. Many smaller breeders would be wise to take note of that. It is good business. I guess when you want to do this full time, buy a new boat, car, house, etc, etc, etc... good sense goes out the window.
Supply and demand... as these prices drop the demand goes up. It is simple... there are more people who can afford a $5,000 snake than can afford a $10,000 snake. WHEN the market takes its drops, as it should, it is expected and normal. The prices drop fast only when smaller breeders can't wait to sell their snakes, often before they hatch!
My advise to people is simple... if you can't afford to wait for a buyer or hold back an animal... you are over-extended and should re-consider your business plan. (if you made one, if not, start there)
As for the bottom falling out on pieds, that is funny. To all who are stressed and are looking for a way to get out of that evil pied market... don't fear! Shoot me and email and give me some prices on all your unwanted pieds... I need more! I'll get you out of those bad investments you made, lol! Anyone ever think about what the pied market might do when a pastel pied is hatched? Look at ghosts, I sold mine for $600 a few years back, that market has gone UP because of the demand. You can't produce enough of them!
So there is my input... hope it helps someone.
Oh yeah, another little rant... if you are having trouble selling a snake... relax! Be an adult and hang onto it! It is not our (other investors in that project) fault you planned poorly and need to pay your bills, that is what jobs are for! Put it on the shelf or trade it... just good business.
Gotta go turn up my incubator so my snakes hatch faster, gotta beat the mojave, pastel, pied, spider, etc, etc, etc, price drop, lol!
Have a great day, the sky is falling!
Jeff Houston

PS- I don't mean to offend anyone, I am a smart a$$. (hard to know when reading something but that is how it was intended) This post made to give some people a new way of looking at these things. Not directed at anyone in particular.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I will give $100 dollars more than you for all the Pieds that the broke breeders produce though. LOL

Hey Jeff,
How are you? Drop me an email...
Tom Baker

"My advise to people is simple... if you can't afford to wait for a buyer or hold back an animal... you are over-extended and should re-consider your business plan."

Great advice! I'll definitely be taking note. =)

Someone told me once of a breeder that pre-sold a lot of his stock before the official hatch. It seems his expectations were either too high or the Ball Python gods were angry. He produced too few morphs. His business went under and he hasn't been heard from since.

That story scared me into NEVER pre-selling an animal. And as the January 2005 issue of Reptiles Magazine (Mike Wilbanks?) states...every animal will eventually sell. Be patient...and enjoy the little ones.

(Man! I really do hope those Piebald prices drop. I'd love a room full. I wish I was Pete Kahl. Think he'll adopt me?)

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market is the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking the Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

it must be nice to sit back and knock people's financial situation. jeff wasn't it you who had your snakes stolen a while back? If not I apologize but your name sound real familiar to me. if it was and you are so well off why was everyone pooling money together for you? You should have just went to the bank and withdrew enough cash to replace them!! neil will you be selling your pieds or keeping them? please let me know what you post under so I can watch the classifieds. I would like to see how much you are selling them for when pete is offering his for around $5000.00

I don't think that exaplaining how the Ball market works is them making fun of people's financial situation. You can't sugar-coat the way the BP industry goes (people selling BP's right out of the egg to get that quick buck and drive the price down, etc etc). How is that making fun of people's financial status?

Here is a quote I copied from JH's post."My advise to people is simple... if you can't afford to wait for a buyer or hold back an animal... you are over-extended and should re-consider your business plan. (if you made one, if not, start there)" Personally I took that as a slap in the face.I quit my well paying job 2 years ago and have been making a nice living with my small collection.I don't produce enough to HOLD BACK. I also know that if I post a pied for $5000 and Pete post one for $5000 who'll get the sale so my price has to be cheaper. The reason is simple... The buyer would rather say I bought this pied from Pete Kahl. Its the sellers business HOW they want to run their business. Ron
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The Crawl Space

sorry didn't want to try and spell you last name. It is insulting when you make fun of someone who can't afford to pay their bills. Telling people if they can't afford to pay their bills then they shouldn't be in this business is pretty insulting. Giving good business advice is one thing but breaking someone down over the amount of money they have is another. Now they did not name anyone imparticular but I am sure there general comments have hit home at more then 1 or 2 people who are on this forum.

It seems like Ball morphs are for people with LOTS of money, and that there's not much care for people who cannot afford them. In other words I think it stinks that for example a person with a group of Pieds who has made considerable money off a job many of us wish we had....is now worried they will start to make less money. I told a breeder I have a lot of respect for I was interested in Ball Pythons last year and asked him what is a good project to begin with. He suggested I get a Spider for mega bucks. That is flat out ridiculous but I still have respect for him. Like I said, is it not true most people have multiple females for thier projects? How much money can you possibly lose when prices fall over the length of a year? If you got in on the Pieds when they were fresh you should have made a pretty penney by now, enough to move onto bigger and better things. This type of talk about worry over market price may be discouraging people from getting involved, which means breeders will have less people to sell to. Not too mention, the frustration people like myself feel when hearing people complain about this as if the huge sums of money many people have made is not enough to keep them happy? I am still overjoyed when I sell a 30 dollar kingsnake.I will be happy if I make any money selling Ball Pythons and I will certainly try to keep my prices at market value regardless of how much it has droped since I invested in my snakes. As they say, "don't quit your day job", and if you did and you are losing your a$$ selling snakes it is my opinion you jumped in too fast too soon. I also feel that het prices should drop, and morph prices should be holding on a little longer simply because clutch size is small.....which means newbies like me will most likely be buying hets to get started....and if we DO score some morphs it is not likely to be in numbers....which also helps the market. Just my 2 cents Tom Stevens

I have to admit I didn't read your other post all the way through.. I have short attention span.. lol. I agree with what you said here though.

For sure. No argument there.

My point is, who's "making fun" of anyone by explaining a situation? Heck, they aren't even talking about ANYONE IN PARTICULAR!! We're not THAT sensitive, are we?

People are in the BP market that are playing with fire because they have TOO MUCH riding on their investments. And the BP industry is not unique in this. Heck, look at the REAL world and it happens all the time. MOST of the time in fact. But saying that it does isn't making fun of anyone. If you can't afford to eat a loss one year, then you are in over your head. If you like living on the edge, then go for broke!!! No one is telling you not to. But don't complain when the prices fall because people are selling their snakes for 20-60% under market value because they can't wait until November until people sell all their corns and leos and beardies to make enough dough to get a BP morph.

PEACE. Its just snakes people. Like Kev said, if World War III happend tomorrow, this whole industry would be irrelevant and they would just be "icky snakes".

"My advise to people is simple... if you can't afford to wait for a buyer or hold back an animal... you are over-extended and should re-consider your business plan."

I think the reason some take offense to this statement may lie in the difference between Breeder and Breeding Business. A breeder is an employee. A breeding business is an employer.

Joe Smith makes $40K per year at his factory job. He decides that purchasing 1.2 Piebalds can yield him $40K worth of babies next season. Joe Smith quits his factory job and purchases the 1.2 Piebalds. He breeds the Piebalds and makes $40K worth of babies the next season...exactly as planned.

Now...Joe Smith (employee) has made money. Joe Smith Reptiles (employer) has made no money. Joe Smith Reptiles (employer) spent it all on the salary of Joe Smith (employee).

What if Joe Smith Reptiles (employer) needs a new rack? A new morph? A new breeding facility? Joe Smith Reptiles (employer) has absolutely no assets to liquidate. Joe Smith Reptiles (employer) is broke.

I think this is what was meant by the above quote. Any successful business must be able to retain money. It must pay itself as well as its employees. This retained money (inventory) is capital for future growth and expansion as well as immediate emergency funds.

I think this advice makes perfect sense.

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market rests in the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

I'm not confused, I know how business works. Not only am I the employer I'm the employee. Someone who had many thousands of dollars in snakes stolen is the last person I want telling me how to run my business. Seems the first rule should be secure your assets. Ron
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The Crawl Space

I agree with part of what you are saying Chris but I also disagree with some of what you are saying. Keeping snakes back and thinking they are a form of capital (inventory) is not as financially realistic as it may seem. Lets say you decide you are going to hold back some inventory (ball pythons) so you can sell animals throughout the year and have some income coming in. Now all of sudden you need a new rack, your thermostats go out, your heat tape melts, your rodent supply dies off from some misterious diesease. Now you need to move some of your (Inventory) to build up some money to replace and repair the items you need. You, Chris, post some pieds on KS for $8500 a couple of days go by and no hits. So you decide your are going to reduce your price to $7500 because you really need the money. Still no hits.. $6500..no hits.. $5000... no hits and you are wondering why can I not sell a pied for $5000? The reason is because there is another guy with 200 pied balls selling them by the name of Pete Kahl who has already established himself and his business and who is a big breeder that the little breeder wants to get to know. So the little breeders are looking right past your $5000 pied and heading straight to Pete. So your only other option is to have a "FIRE SALE" I believe is the term someone used here. I am not trying to knock Pete at all, what I am saying is if the little breeder has a choice to buy from another little breeder or a big breeder 95% of the time they will buy from the big breeder.

I also agree with Ron 100%. If you are going to give "GOOD BUSINESS" advice to the little breeders maybe you should be sure to practice what you preach and protect your $100,000 investment with a little security.

Are you the same Chris that started this thread? I decided to come to your defense because most everyone was saying you were wrong in saying Pied market was going to crash and here you defending the people that bad mouthed you?? lmao... Just messing you man..

[LMAO] Actually I never really meant to assert that the Piebald market would definitely crash. The title "WARNING: Piebald Market Crash" was merely a ploy to bring people into a discussion. I have no clue if the Piebald market will actually crash, that's why I just said "Hmm..." (my pondering sound) in the original post. No opinions. Just my pondering sound. =)

But again...I believe that the IDEA of holding back animals is sound. For example, I've told other breeders that my main goal is to make enough money to pay rent for a year -- roughly $8000 cash. What I plan on producing is almost three times that amount. The reason is simple. After I pay my rent, I'll need money to purchase a visual Piebald. Maybe a Clown, too.

So in theory...the business (Christopher Bianco Reptiles) pays me a salary of $8000 per year as well as paying itself $XXXX per year (depending on what is actually produced) in order to expand as a successful business.

Of course, this is just my opinion...and I believe I am God.

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market rests in the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

>>So in theory...the business (Christopher Bianco Reptiles) pays me a salary of $8000 per year as well as paying itself $XXXX per year (depending on what is actually produced) in order to expand as a successful business.

So how much of this are you reporting to the IRS? And I'd love to see $1000 in rats claimed as a "business expense" LMAO - Just kidding - I need a drink - this whole thing is getting out of hand.
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Tosha

"Of course, this is just my opinion...and I believe I am God." -- Christopher Bianco

8.15.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
1.0.0 Angolan Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.3 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

Does that sound ridiculous? The IRS would probably not even begin to question that deduction. It's a very legitimate claim. You might startle your new tax accountant, though. =)

Chris =)
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“The problem with the Ball Python market rests in the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

LOL - he was startled enough when I told him about the snakes!!!
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Tosha

"Of course, this is just my opinion...and I believe I am God." -- Christopher Bianco

8.15.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
1.0.0 Angolan Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.3 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

Next time...

Tax Attorney: This is a deduction for...let me get this straight...frozen rats?

Tosha: Yep!

Tax Attorney: What on Earth are you doing with frozen rats?

Tosha: The snakes eat 'em.

Tax Attorney: Snakes?

Tosha: Yeah. I breed snakes.

Tax Attorney: You breed snakes?

Tosha: Yep!

Tax Attorney: I can't believe you breed snakes.

Tosha: No? I can prove it...

(Tosha opens her briefcase and looks inside.)

Tosha: C'mere little fella.

Now THAT would startle you tax attorney! =)

Chris =)
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“The problem with the Ball Python market rests in the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

!
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Tosha

"Of course, this is just my opinion...and I believe I am God." -- Christopher Bianco

8.15.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
1.0.0 Angolan Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.3 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

OK Tosha, am I missin' somethin' or is that P supposed to be an R??

Quig

Naw the P was supposed to be an R but I got digit dyslexia. But I guess I could be peeing on the floor laughing my ass off!!
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Tosha

"Of course, this is just my opinion...and I believe I am God." -- Christopher Bianco

8.15.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
1.0.0 Angolan Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.3 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

:|

Oh, the series of pictures that just ran through my mind!LOL
Sometimes a vivid imagination can be hazardous!

Quig

Yes, I am the same Jeff Houston that had his snakes stolen. I took a monster hit and can't say much about it yet as it is still in the court system.
One thing I can say, I am not apologizing to people anymore about not having an alarm... get over it. It has been explained, the house was being remodeled and the alarm would have been in the way. (it would have needed to be removed/re-installed at some point)
Anyway, many people don't have alarms, I hope my situation changed that but I am sure it did not.
First, no one "pooled" money together for me. There was a reward offered, people pledged money to add to that reward. (for the arrest and conviction) I am the one who found the thief, so no reward was ever needed or paid. I never received one cent, not a penny after the theft. I actually lost out on the 2004 breeding season for the most part and by the time my snakes were returned (some of them) it was too late to condition them for the 2005 season.
So yes, I think I am in a good place to talk about the ups and downs of this business. I have had more downs than ups and I am still here.
After the theft I sat down and revised the business plan, I crunched numbers and bought more snakes. I can't get too much into it because of the criminal and civil cases.
I am not "knocking" anyone. Far from it! I certainly did not "make fun" of anyone. And I did not "break anyone down" that is just silly.
I don't know you Ron so I am sure I was not talking about you, was I? If you quit your job and you are doing well, good for you! I am glad. If you start throwing stupid prices out there because there is a Visa bill on the way, well that is just not good business. That was my point, plain and simple. If you are able to run your business like a business, good.
Maybe if you can't hold stuff back you might have considered keeping your job an extra year or two? Not being a jerk, just bringing up a point that might help others. I work, I am set up to do this full-time I guess. I "could" pay my bills with snake money, I would rather not though.
Last year I sold or traded every male I produced and kept every single female. I'll do the same thing this year. (unless someone REALLY wants a pair) My thinking is simple, just keep a slow and steady pace and re-invest. If you want to produce lots of snakes, you need to have lots of them to breed. I did not want to go out an buy a bunch of pastel females, so I bought what I could afford and hatched the rest myself.
I bought a few mojave females, the rest will be my hold backs.
Look, if you don't agree with me, cool. I am not trying to tell you to do it my way. I love to see people do well, congrats if you are. Maybe what I have said will make you re-think some things, maybe not. Maybe you are right and I am not. Do what you think is right, I'll do the same.
Like I said, this was a discussion, too bad those aren't allowed on these forums anymore. I give my opinion, others give theirs, it is fun and easy. I did not insult anyone. Since we want to quote my post lets not forget this quote:

PS- I don't mean to offend anyone, I am a smart a$$. (hard to know when reading something but that is how it was intended) This post made to give some people a new way of looking at these things. Not directed at anyone in particular.

Wow, that seems to cover the criticism I received huh? I guess I can't have an opinion because a year ago someone stole my snakes? No, I made it through and I would like to see others do the same.
My own business plan is simple, sell as little as possible. I put myself in a situation to allow that to happen, I did not quit my job. In the long run it is MY OPINION that this will yield a better return and a more stable business. It is fun to think of selling all the snakes I hatch this year, it is better to think about selling the babies from the 2005 females in 2007 & 2008. (again, my opinion)
It is not something new for me, when I bought my business in CA I did not take a penny out of it for the first year. I lived off savings and watched every penny. In that first year I paid off the loans on the company and that freed up capital that I used to buy more equipment, hire more people, etc. That is how we grew. Had I been making a $2500 a month loan payment on top of the $4000 a month it cost me to be there I would have had MUCH less money to expand.
That is the way I do things, I am just sharing that. Sorry if other people's opinions and business plans offend some of you. I read yours and was not offended. I am done with this part of the discussion.
Couple more things for the masses, it does not take a million dollars to get into breeding morphs! I keep seeing people discouraged by the cost. I started with 3 poss. het female pieds in 2001. That was not a crazy amount to spend! People can start small and do it right, a little luck and hard work will go a long way. No, you can't be like RD, NERD or The Sutherlands with a year and $2500 to invest but you can have fun and do well.
If you want to get into breeding morphs, save some cash and go for it! Nothing beats hatching your first morph! It does not matter if it is a $10,000 mojave or a $800 pastel, the feeling is still the same. It is like buying a new car, you love the car you buy because it is what you can afford. You don't hate your new car because it is not a Benz or a Hummer! You don't keep your old Honda just because you can't afford a new BMW! No, you get what you can afford and are happy with it. If you have $20k to spend on a car, cool... if you have $50k, even better. If you only had $3k to spend would you just throw up your arms and say "cars are too much money, I can't afford one"? No, you'd get a used one and still have fun with it.
If you want to breed morphs, do it. Buy some normal females and a pastel male, or a hypo male and make hets. Do what you can afford.
Last thing, ever wonder why some of the biggest breeders still have jobs? I won't mention names but many of them do, or at least have other investments?
My opinion and one shared by many others, if you can keep your day job... keep it! It takes a lot of pressure off your HOBBY.

Another disclaimer... not that it will help, lol. If you don't share my opinion, great. You are entitled to post yours here too. Please refrain from accusing me of things I did not do though. I have said my opinion, I'm done.
Thanks!
Jeff Houston

I did see your disclaimer at the end of your post. The problem I had with this comment "My advise to people is simple... if you can't afford to wait for a buyer or hold back an animal... you are over-extended and should re-consider your business plan" is you're assuming I'm over extended and should revise my business plan. Since you made a generalized comment I do feel it was directed at people who sell immediately and don't hold back.. and that includes me. First off I don't have alot of room to keep extra animals. Second I think my business plan was excellent. I started with a pair of Woma pythons.. traded for an adult pair of het albino balls.. produced 3 albinos and some 66% poss hets. Traded 2.0 albinos, 2.2 poss hets and $300 cash to Joe Dembinksi for a pair of het clowns. Sold the albino female to Camlon for $1500.00 a a het albino female. Sold the het albino female for $600.00. The het clown was breedable so I produced several clutches of poss het clowns. Sold them for some nice cash and did some great trades.I could keep going but I'm sure you see my point. My whole collection was basically funded by that pair of Womas I traded. This year my 12 normal females are out on breeding loan. They are being bred to a Mojave, Spider, & Cinnamon Pastel. Based on our SIGNED agreement I could end up with 6 to 9 morphs, half the normal females and all the normal males without spending a dime. Not to mention I should produce, albinos, hopefully clowns and pieds. So I don't think my plan needs any revision at this time. By the way... I would bet the majority of ball breeders sell right away and don't keep many back. Ron
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The Crawl Space

Ron; I am in the same boat as you with regards to our practices of selling hatchlings and not holding back much, we differ GREATLY in the sense that since you have posted (pretty much) the value of what you "maybe" will have to sell this year, I would never have even considered quitting my day job to live off a few morphs.
Jeff; You made some great points, adn I'm almost completely in agreement with your practices and ideas, even though I am not of your "breeder calibre" for lack of a better term.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

From a colubrid breeders view this high end market is seemingly so risky you must face the fact that your dreams of making a fortune just may not work out. I recently got my first 2.2 het Albinos for a fair price close to market. In other words I am trying to keep it real, a cool project at a very reasonable cost. These snakes have a huge following and even if there are animals costing over 1000 dollars soon enough collectors will have to have them...........that is when prices come down and they can afford them. Same goes for breeders in a way. For example if I could get a male pied for say 3 grand, I would consider it. Remember I am a newbie. I have no confidence or experience breeding Pythons, only colubrids. However for a reasonable investment on something i could not afford a few years ago I would at least consider taking the plunge. Let's remember these are great looking animals, but there's plenty of more expensive, less common morphs out there for the big dogs. If the Pied goes the way of the Albino and Pastel it may indeed be a great thing to get more people into these snakes. I bought Womas [Aspedites, not Woma Balls]2 years ago, and I am watching the prices fall. Sure it bugs me but I can still make a buck if I produce some. It seems many Ball breeders have many extra females. So I do not see why people fear falling prices as if they will lose a fortune. The potential for substantial profit still exists. Sometimes reading this forum i get the impression many of the people on here actually have the cash to buy these high dollar animals. Can't anyone see that soon 8 out of 10 keepers will be breeders? What about the market for people who want pets? Is that not why people started selling snakes in the first place? Making tens of thousands of dollars appeals to everyone. So I am thinking if you have the cash to spend over 10 grand per animal why not skip the pied and go for something less common where there is much less of a chance for the market to so noticeably fall? And if you have owned Pieds for a few years and made a good buck why complain about the market now? I see MANY colubrid breeders selling all their colubrids to get into Balls now. This market is going to be flooded with quantities of the Pieds, Pastels and Albinos. I think it is a great thing[in a way ], instead of seeing a few here n there at local show there may be more of a selection and a better chance of inspiring people to save up for their snake of their dreams. Sorry to be long winded. But for a new guy just getting into these snakes I see plenty of potential and look forward to hopefully being a part of it. I understand falling prices suck, but that is basically the way it goes for just about everything. I love seeing pics of cutting edge stuff I know I can not afford just yet. It gives me inspiration to keep focused and work hard to get what I want. I hope everyone has a great season, and look forward to seeing the 05 baby pics Tom Stevens

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market is the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking the Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

he had twice that many last year and the price went down a bit, but no more than it should have. Prices are still where they were last year... Pied is a morph that will possibly never meet the demand.

There is no price crash coming. If prices arent adjusted every year by a little then thats when a price crash happens.

I consider one hundred (100) Piebalds a very large amount...and this number does not include Pete Kahl's upcoming 2005 stock.

However, what I fail to realize is the vast number of Ball Python fans...both current and future. There must be literally thousands (if not tens of thousands) of Ball Python enthusiasts out there...each one dreaming of Piebalds. This rates Pete Kahl's stock as a drop in the bucket (as far as supply versus demand goes).

I guess that makes me this year's first "The Sky Is Falling" groupie. What an honor! =)

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market is the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking the Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

It's that simple....we have only begun to see what can happen with this morph...not one cross has hit the street yet....
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Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

Sorry to leave you out here all alone Jeff, I had some real business to take care of so I wouldn't have to have a "Fire Sale". LoL.

Personally I could care less if I offend anyone. I'm the one that's offended when I see some idiot that maxes out their credit card, promises the wife that they are going to make millions, and then has a "Fire Sale" because they have a real problem in their life. If you talk to Mike Wilbanks, we talked about this very issue when he was writing his article in Reptiles. Oh NO, I'm name dropping again. LoL. Ask him where he got his first Pied by the way.

I'm going to give all you newbies out there some good advice. Listen if you want. DO NOT over extend yourself!!!!! You need to plan on not making a cent from your snakes. There is no guarantee with livestock.

The problem I see is people trying to get rich quick. There is a person that has made a name for himself in this bizz that started using a het Pied male and making poss het females. He kept them all back, and is now probably producing more Pieds than me. I won't name him since he is a competitor. LOL

That road is a longer road to take. If you want to see a faster return on your money, you need to buy a co-dom. I tell everyone that you can't go wrong with a Pastel male. Every large breeder out there can't have enough pastel females, so you can sell them easy. If you put some size on them, they double in price. I feel the spiders will be more affordable this year, and will work the same.

Lastly, Jeff and I gave you bad business people an out if you get in a bind. Contact us, and we will buy, or point you in the right direction to sell your animals. This way you won't hurt the market by posting a cheap price.

Time for the corny saying at the end. LOL

Tell it like it is, or don't tell it at all!!!!!