Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm relatively new to herping. I first got seriously started in the early 90's. Cal kings were my first "luv" but I moved on to trans pecos rats, and pyros. Then I got really hooked on tri colors. In the mid 90's I met a friend from Flagstaff (Rich Gassaway) who introduced me to the mexicana spp. He taught me alot about "Montane kingsnakes". He grouped alterna, pyros, knobs, ruthveni, mex mex, thayeri, & greeri all together as montane kings.

One of the things that he pointed out to me was that montane kingsnakes experienced a much slower growth rate than normal kings. He advocated a 3, 4 or even 5 year growth plan before breeding montane kingsnakes. I think there is some merit to this idea. I'm pretty sure that he was at least partly influenced by Robert Applegate.

I'd like to hear from some of you oldtimers. Do any of you all practice this extended growth rate for your mexicana or "montane" kingsnakes? Do any of you think that its better for the health of the snake to wait 4 or even 5 years before breeding especially females?

CG

...this is a very important issue with me as well, and I really hope some of the seasoned pros see this and jump in with their wisdom.

I have been taught the very same, and I must say that I do agree with allowing montane kings more time to mature. Being that many of them naturally have a shorter period of activity during the warm months, it makes sense that they would take longer to fully mature in the wild, and size definitely matters here. I am managing my projects with mexicana with as natural an approach as I possibly can, brumating even hatchlings their first winter and letting them all cool down when they signal they are ready.

Keeping these animals in captivity, I know we have the ability to change many things and "force" them to do pretty much what we want them to do, but I don't agree with re-designing them at all. I myself have seen that some do eat, grow and mature naturally quicker than others, makes sense to me that these would reproduce successfully in the wild at a younger age than the others. And it has been proven that size does translate into breeding maturity to a great degree, at least physically.

Many advocate keeping them up for their first 2 winters, "forcing" them to put on size and maturity for earlier breeding, but it isn't natural. And it is not the way I personally choose to go.

I have a 5 year old female alterna here, along with another 3 year old, and also a 3 year old female thayeri... all breeding for the first time this year. The 3 year olds are only being bred because they have the physical size. I must say that I hesitated and initially didn't plan to let them go this year, but curiousity got the best of me and I wanted to see for myself if age in fact made any significant difference.

Very good post Mike!
I agree with you on many points you made especially about Montane kingsnake having a less active or shorter summer for feeding and growing. I wish I knew how long it takes a Montane kingsnake to reach breeding size. And what is "breeding size" in the wild.
I remember reading about some gravid atrox after a dry season that were only 18 inches in length....Now that is unbelievable to me..

We do not know exactly how it all works in the wild....Our snakes ARE mere pets, persay.....We have learned what "works" so we continue to not change our husbandry techniques due to complacency.

I, for one, feed all my young snakes through their first winter's until they are breeding size. I do, however, hibernate all my nonfeeders their first winter....that is a whole other subject...
Thanks for the post Mike, and thanks for the topic Chris.
John Lassiter

Well Chris,
First of all...I am NOT one of the "oldtimers."
But in my limited experience of 6 years of keeping and breeding mexicana I have noticed that it takes 3 years usually for my female thayeri to reach my minimum of 30 inches and 300 grams. For that reason I am not breeding any of my 2002 holdbacks until next year when they will be 3 1/2 years old at breeding time.
Now....I don't know how much this helps, but I just bred a 5 year old thayeri female to a male of the same age and it was their first breeding. I got slugs from her this year. Maybe the male is to blame or maybe the female...I dunno. But slugs are expected sometimes by first time breeders.
As for longevity...I don't know from personal experience, but I do know of a female alterna that bred from age 3 to age 20 until she passed away at the age of 22 and she double clutched nearly every single year....and this is the honest truth.
I think snakes are just as individual as us. Some breed better, some grow faster and some die sooner......
John Lassiter

You are too an "oldtimer" LOL

We don't care how much you try to deny it you are an "OLD CODGER MEXICANA FREAK"..............LOL

Seriously, thanks for your input John. I like your 30 inch, 300 gram, "measuring stick". I think it a great way to evalute females.

I've bred mine at 3 years unless they don't look big enough. My oldest captive born snake is 9 years old so I don't know if it has affected longevity yet. I am giving some of my females that have bred for me 3 or 4 years in a row the year off this year just because they don't breed every year in the wild so it's probably good for them to skip a year now and then.

Not to argue with you at all Aaron, but how do we know that wild kingsnakes take years off from breeding in the wild? Is it simply the case that they don't always find a mate or is there a weather factor or is it something else?
John Lassiter

Well I guess I haven't read any studies that say they do but Richard Hoyer has studied Rubber Boas, for over 20 years. He has many sites where he catches the same snakes year after year and notes their length, weight and whether there are ovulating or gravid and he has found that the females do not reproduce every year. Studies on Timber Rattlers have shown the same. Kind of a jump to apply that to colubrids I suppose. However sometimes people catch female kingsnakes in the wild during the season when they could be gravid and not all of them are.

Thanks for the info Aaron...
John Lassiter

Maybe its not the best idea to group all "montane" kingsnakes together anyway. I lived in Prescott AZ for a few years and I know that the drought the area experienced in the late 90's effected fertility more than anything. Pyro's in the Prescott/Flagstaff area I'm sure shut down in Sept. I seriously doubt that Alterna in south texas or thayeri in Nuevo Leon Mexico shut down that early. And I'd be willing to bet that those same snakes get at least a months head start in the spring too.

I definately want my thayeri to live as long as possible and I'll do everything I can to make sure of that. But at the same time I think that everyone of them are individuals. If they have the genes and environment and food to breed early in the wild they would do it. I'll make sure my CB females are healthy and big enough to breed without undue stress. I thinks thats the best we can do.

Thanks everyone for help and input.