Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A couple of days ago I posted a request for plans for a large plastic cage and recieved no replies. I thought I'd take a chance on contacting a commercial producer of plastic cages to possibly purchase a building plan and all the accessories needed (heat panels, divider, lights, locks, etc.) from said manufacturer. In response to my email in which I explained I had access to 1/4" black Sintra sheeting, he wrote, "be careful with that material it is junk and is PVC which normal PVC gives off harmful off gases when heated up." He followed up by saying that Sintra could not be welded.

Is what this individual wrote true? Is Sintra "junk" in regard to caging material for a large cage, off-gassing, and welding? Also, can someone point me in the direction to secure plans for a large plastic cage? I have a creeping suspicion that I'll have to commission a cabinet guy to build some wood cages.

Thanks,
Kevin Lankford,
Fairbanks, Alaska

Kevin,

I did not reply to your previous post because I know of no plans for large Sintra cages with the detail your plastics guy needs.

I believe it can be done, though, but I just don't know of the resources you require.

I do not believe Sintra is junk. With the fees of shipping anything to Alaska its probably one of your few choices. Ironically, a previous poster from Alaska, maybe even you, once said Sintra was impossible to find in Alaska. He/we assumed it was due to the harsh weather making it impossible to use outdoors.

I'll send you an e-mail.

>>A couple of days ago I posted a request for plans for a large plastic cage and recieved no replies. I thought I'd take a chance on contacting a commercial producer of plastic cages to possibly purchase a building plan and all the accessories needed (heat panels, divider, lights, locks, etc.) from said manufacturer. In response to my email in which I explained I had access to 1/4" black Sintra sheeting, he wrote, "be careful with that material it is junk and is PVC which normal PVC gives off harmful off gases when heated up." He followed up by saying that Sintra could not be welded.
>>
>>Is what this individual wrote true? Is Sintra "junk" in regard to caging material for a large cage, off-gassing, and welding? Also, can someone point me in the direction to secure plans for a large plastic cage? I have a creeping suspicion that I'll have to commission a cabinet guy to build some wood cages.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Kevin Lankford,
>>Fairbanks, Alaska
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Expanded PVC is great stuff if you have the proper tools to use it. It is weldable, and unless it is giving something off that nobody wants to admit to then no it is not dangerous. What size enclosure plans are you wanting and for what species? I have used xpvc off and on for around 5 years or so and find it easy to use, and much more durable then most people give it credit for. (I did a few drop tests using .100" thick and .080" thick xpvc and it could stand up to alot)
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

Hey Randy, I want something as close to my Habitat Systems caging as possible while accepting that a first-time plastic cage builder will not produce the quality of a HS cage. I'm wanting a 96x30x18(or 20) cage(s) with divider, RHPs and tubed for misting. Optimally, I'd like it to be doubled walled, floored and roofed like the HS cages. The only single wall is the back wall. Here is the pic i posted earlier this week.

Take care,
Kevin Lankford,
Fairbanks, Alaska

That will end up being quite an expensive unit to fabricate. You are looking at 4 sheets and that is going the 8'x30"x18". So not counting the additional material to build up air space you are going to shell out ALOT. You may want to consider going 1/2" HDPE and router the material and screw then silicone the joints. It will end up costing about half as much for the material and not require any welding to be done. A price comparison

using 1/2" HDPE
2 sheets 8x4 roughly $110.00 per sheet (so $220.00 plus cost of glass track, sylicone, screws, and plexi added will make it roughly $300.00)

using 1/4" xpvc
4 sheets 8x4 roughly $60.-$75. per sheet (guessing you do not have a reasonable supplier in your area, if you do you may be able to get it for $45.00 per sheet). so $240.00-$300.00 plus cost of plexi, glass track, welding rods, and 1/2" stock material to build in between sheet gaps will make it roughly $320.00 to the $400.00 range.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

lol, oops, not quite half as much to go that route, but I also forgot about the divider material, which will require another sheet for either one you go with. (so it kinda evens the pricing out lol. ) Remind me to not post shortly after a nap.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

Do a "Google" search on (Plastics and Cancer) or (PVC and Cancer)!!! Research does show that it DOES release harmful chemicals, especially when heated. I don't know how you feel about your Reps but, I personally put to much Time,Money,and Love to have them die of cancer in 10 years!!!

>>Do a "Google" search on (Plastics and Cancer) or (PVC and Cancer)!!! Research does show that it DOES release harmful chemicals, especially when heated. I don't know how you feel about your Reps but, I personally put to much Time,Money,and Love to have them die of cancer in 10 years!!!

I believe that the PVC releases harmful chemicals when heated only, not perpetually over the life of the product. If that was the case we would be dead, PVC is used in plumbing. When you heat the product just don't let your snake huff the fumes and you should be fine.
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"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Rebert Oppenheimer

I think about all the situations where PVC pipe is used around exceptionally delicate species and find it hard to believe it would have significant long term effects to hardier species.

Freshly cut PVC pipe is used to rear some of the rarest amphibians in the world and to segregate larvae of delicate marine invertebrates used in research.

Another point about heating Sintra.

If you use Radiant Heat Panels in PVCX cages you won't produce the more localized hot spots normal with flexwatt, CHE's, light bulbs, or even the localized heat of fluroescent ballasts.

I suspect these extremely localized hot spots are more likely to release toxic fumes than the more gradual, spread out heat of a RHP.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I agree that regular PVC probably dosen't release as much fumes as if it was heated. However us humans are much more tollarant to toxins than reptiles. Ie.... We are around cedar products all the time and it WILL kill your reptiles, If your house was sprayed for bugs and you could safely be in your home, it still very possibly kill your reptiles. So you CANNOT compare our tollarances to toxins to a reptiles tollarances to toxins! And as for heating with RHP'S,Bulbs,FlexWatt,Pads,Cables,Etc....
Heating is Heating!!!!!

I was not comparing humans to reptiles, I was comparing reptiles to other more delicate species.

>>And as for heating withRHP'S,Bulbs,FlexWatt,Pads,Cables,Etc....
>>Heating is Heating!!!!!

That's clearly not true. Plastics have clear threshold temperatures above which fumes are released. The same plastics are relatively benign below these temps. So we can expect that RHP's would be the safest way to heat any plastic cage since they produce the lowest surface temperatures of any available reptile cage heating product.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

One your water supply feeds your animals that is a contact point unless you don't use tap.
Two like chris said PVC is used in amphibian care all the time, myself worked with the fish trade and ther are no chemical seepage of any kind. Even with delicate invertabrates.
Three heating is heating but the temp at which PVC releases fumes is higher than sources for our animals. In a cage enviroment the first and only time the sintra will realease fumes is welding 500' or so not typical in a boa enviroment.
Four think what you want I believe mine are safe but if you don't want to chance it don't. Thats your opinion. And this is mine. "It's Safe"
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"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Rebert Oppenheimer

My bad, these FUMES must be getting to me.lol Just thought I'd let people know about the search to see for themselves!

>>My bad, these FUMES must be getting to me.lol Just thought I'd let people know about the search to see for themselves!

Alright I did the search thing and found out yes there are toxins released when heated but its not like you make it out. There are to ways to look at it one is by pyrolysis or to heat without flame IE smoking but no flame. Pyrolysis (heating till smoke evolves) of PVC causes the production of char and tar and the formation of chlorinated hydrocarbons, mainly
chlorobenzene. According to the Chem guys this isn't toxic it in drinking water. In summary melting and subsequent evolution of smoke does result in toxic products being evolved. Its this incineration that causes the toxins. Incineration of PVC leads to the formation of chlorinated dibenzodioxines and dibenzofuranes in the flue gas. So basically if you use candles as a light/heat source your screwed.
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"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Rebert Oppenheimer

hey, nice research bighurt. i have often come across the "pvc will kill you!" on the environmental whacko websites while searching for pvc info. there was never any proof, info, or instructions on how to be safe other than to stop using it.
i suspect these are the same people who drive SUVs with greenpeace stickers on them.
in no way am i talking about you goldsreptiles. you just happened to start this thread. thank you for the heads up, especially now that we are to the bottom of it.
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1.1 Gargoyle geckos
1.1 leucistic leopard gecko
0.0.1 asian golden tree frog
1.0 oriental firebelly toad
0.1 european firebelly toad
1.0 albino betta
1.0 orange tabby
0.0.1 asian painted frog
1.0 broad headed skink
0.0.1 fowlers toad
1.1 red eyed tree frog
1.1 red eared sliders
476.769.47 feeder crickets

even if pvc release fumes, do you think melamine doesnt? I think melamine is 1000 worst than plastic, i even read an article where they suggest to put plant in a room that house melamine furniture to decrease the amount of toxic fumes emmited by melamine

Sorry that I made it seem to be a bad product! I was just trying to make people aware of the search so they could come to their own conclusions. I'm not sure about melamine but,I do know that MDF which alot of people are using to make cages usually contains formaldahyde in which it slowly releases unless it is thoroughly sealed in and out!!!