Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I would like to keep Leptophis ahaetulla. Have that species dengerous venom for people (for adults and children)?

Leptophis is non venomous according to Bill Lamar and does not have rear fangs as written in other books. I have searched mine and found no rear fangs. They are perhaps not a good pet snake for a child, although make a wonderful display animal but holding them will only stress them. They eat frogs and lizards and need a tropical/semi tropical enclosure with frequent mistings. This is my Leptophis ahaetulla praestans - always eager to show me his smile.

Dan

Make no mistake, Leptophis ahaetulla does possess "rear ungrooved fangs and mildly toxic venom" according to Julian Lee (The Amphibians and Reptiles of the Yucatan Peninsula)"but does not constitute a threat to humans." Jay Savage, authority on Costa Rican herps, adds that the Duvernoy's gland is present in this species with the last 2-4 teeth somewhat enlarged. Having said that, I have witnessed minor swelling in the hand of an individual who was bit while subduing a Leptophis sp. in Costa Rica in 1997. This species does readily bite when handled and should not be considered "safe" by inexperienced keepers.

Lamar says the symptoms may be due to their toxic amphibian prey but also stated they were non-venomous? Either case, they need special attention when handling.

Dan

>>Lamar says the symptoms may be due to their toxic amphibian prey

This is completely wrong. The same way its wrong when people talk about hognosed bites having a reaction from toad toxins in their mouth. An utter fallacy. Its from venom and thats pretty much all there is to it. .

>but also stated they were non-venomous?

All colubrids have a venom gland except for the constricting ratsnakes which have undergone a secondary loss. Excluding cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes etc. technically there is no such thing as a non-venomous colubrid.

However, it must be stressed that the vast majority are of trivial medical importance. I suspect that Leptophis is amongst those that will cause only very mild symptoms.

All the best
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

Brian:

I've read your papers on the subject and it must be that Lamar used the word "may" indicating a possibility as at the time of the print, 1997, I do not think anyone had studied colubrid saliva/venom so closely as you have.

You mention most colubrids have venomous glands. Are you meaning that these colubrids venom glands are the saliva glands, or a separate gland? I think your meaning the same gland but just wondering because I was under the impression that colubrid saliva was tested and found to have venom similar to elapids, however in such small quantities not to harm man.

And if it is indeed the same gland, is it now referred to as their venom gland and not their saliva gland?

And I am not sure they even called it a saliva gland so forgive my reference if I am identifying it as something its not termed.

Thanks for the clearing-up this matter for me.

Dan

Hi mate

>>You mention most colubrids have venomous glands. Are you meaning that these colubrids venom glands are the saliva glands, or a separate gland?

Its not a saliva gland but rather a true venom gland and the exact same one that is in the elapids and viperids. The term Duvernoy's gland has been dropped into the dustbin and the gland referred to simply as venom gland. The distinction between colubrid glands and elapid/viperid glands was completely artificial.

Cheers
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

While it is a venom gland, the use of the term "Duvernoy's gland" is still commonly used in both recent medical and herpetological literature in describing the structure associated with the Colubridae.

>>While it is a venom gland, the use of the term "Duvernoy's gland" is still commonly used in both recent medical and herpetological literature in describing the structure associated with the Colubridae.

Thats because all of our work in this area and the name change have only been recent. In addition, most toxinologists are pretty hopeless when it comes to the snakes themselves. For example, if you want to see 1960's taxonomy, pick up any recent addition of Toxicon.

Cheers
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

>>Lamar says the symptoms may be due to their toxic amphibian prey but also stated they were non-venomous? Either case, they need special attention when handling.

Reactions to Leptophis bites are well documnted in the literature. Minton and Minton discussed a case in their classic book on venomous reptiles. I have seen one case where a handler was bitten and suffered brning pain for some minutes, and regarded this as entirely normal for that species. They certainly do have enlarged rear teeth.

As BGF said, most colubrids have venom glands, so none of this is very surprising.

Cheers,

WW
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WW Home

Well somone should have let him know before he published that statement in 1997. I am sure he knew but used the "may" term which implies he was not positive or not.

Dan

Some scientists (and people in general) are stubborn and don't like accepting anything new. It's a Chondro python if I say it's a Chondro python. Some people are even led into the clouds when they think "if we consider all colubrids venomous then what will that do to the laws?" Who cares? Nobody is getting jailed for a species every scientist will call harmless. You can't let silly things like that disrupt the productivity of science. In these cases you really need to go by the most extensive work done. Dr. Fry has it and there is no question about it (until someone puts in more work that for some reason can prove something otherwise...and I doubt it's going to happen). There are people still terming corn snakes Elaphe guttata guttata. No reason but laziness (and possibly arrogance) in accepting new (and more thorough) research. Why should Petco have to change their labels? They were fine with it being Elaphe. Well, it really never was Elaphe and heterodons never made people swell because of the toad skin messing with their saliva. They did not evolve long teeth to "pop" toads then evolve a venom gland as a bonus either. So maybe someone should have told him. But I bet with all the press on Dr. Fry I am sure he should be able to find out soon enough.

I am not saying this to give a hard time and I deffinitely respect everyones work. If he said it "may" then it was a guess based on his scientific knowledge (not a bad guess but it wasn't the right one). Nobody knows a lot of things until someone does the work to find out. Thank BGF for being that guy who finds things out.

I would like to find out why anaconda urine cures harder than any substance on earth. However, I would rather read about it and have someone else do the work. Urates aren't really my passion but I have to say I am curious every time use a hammer to get the stuff off something.