Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I saw one of PK's het for coral albino boas and under the description it said it was from a pastel x normal albino breeding. If this is true why the different names for the same morph? It just causes more confusion for us small folks. Anyone care to shed some light on this subject?

I've seen many "coral" albinos before and some won't even call them coral, even though they look like a coral, simply because it didn't come from the "original" line of PK's coral albinos. Some people even argued that PK has the only line of true coral albinos and all other are just wannabe corals.

I became the forth owner of this beautiful albino female and thought she could possibily be a coral. She was sold me to as a normal albino 66% het for stripe. I tracked down the original seller and found out from Brian of Chicago Reptile House that she was produced by PK and could have been from his Coral Albino line.

I'll post some pics tomorrow and maybe you guys can tell me what you think.

Sam

Corals and Pastels are different lines.. the non albino offspring from the Coral breedings do not look like pastels, and thusly the line isn't pastel. Also Pastel albinos have a higher wash of color where as Corals seem to be infused with lines and patches of brighter coloring.
-----
Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

Pastels seem to have a saturation of color throughout the body while corals have patchy splotches.

I defenitly dont think they should be intermingled as a single term.

They are both high etherin albinos yes.. but obviously different.

I was also confused when I saw Pete using the term pastel on his website for corals ... coral being a high color albino ... pastels being a low black normal (pastel bloodlines selectively bred for color however).

Corals were derived through breeding one of the patriarch albinos to many normals .. one of the hets from that bunch threw the corals. They were not derived through reducing black (revealing color) and selectively breeding towards color in normals (like pastels were).

I personally was under the impression that that particular bloodline is the coral bloodline, and everything else is just wannabes. But Pete says this is not the case. Which would lead to me believe its a phenotype (like "pastel".

I wish he would just define the trait as either a phenotype or a bloodline and end the confusion.

np

There has been confusion regarding this in other forums so I'll clear it up here as well.

Pastel dreams are a BLOODLINE (period). This bloodline was developed through normals with the goal of increasing color by means of reducing black. Reducing black reveals color to allow more effecient selective breeding towards it. It is this work done by Jeff Ronne that yeilded such amazing albinos.

At initial glance, there are similarities (they are both high etherin albinos). But defenitly distinctively different.

If Pete wants to call corals a phenotype he needs to define the parameters (what constitutes a coral?). If corals are a phenotype and pastels fall within the parameter of coral then they can be one in the same. Until Pete clears it up all we have is speculation.

My personal opinion is that corals are a bloodline. They were derived through an F1 breeding (high genetic variation) and spawned from that line. That to me seems obvious that it is a bloodline.

The reason Pete may have told me that people can call their albinos corals if they look coral even if they are not known to be from that line is possibly because the corals were developed so early on, there are many out there from that het that threw the corals. And coral could pop up. But thats not how it works. For example.. if I find a genetic abberant boa that is similiar to a jungle .. Its possible that it came from and is the same bloodline as the sweedish jungle line ... but I dont call it a jungle because I dont know it to be from that line. I cannot come to that conclusion without knowing for sure.

Some may argue that pastel dreams albinos came from the an albino that descended from the original het that threw the corals... and that, of course, is a possibility. But make no mistake, the color came from the pastel influence... coral didnt sporadicly pop up into Jeff's albino line suddenly when he introduced pastelism to it (and to think it did would be irrational).

.

Pete got two albino males that started the Kahl bloodline I believe.

He bred these two males to many normal females, producing het albinos.

One or some of the hets from ONE (keyword there) of the original normal females produced the first corals.

In a litter of boas you can have some very red ones to almost white ones...this fits perfectly to the understanding that when the Coral albino showed up, that it hit the red characteristic within the boas string.

..

Good post Topnotch, but I am in agreement with Pete. It is my opinion that the Pastel trait is polygenic yes, but does not show itself in all the produced in a Pastel litter. There will be degrees of the Pastel trait as defined throughout any single litter.
As for the Pastel and Coral Albinos...If the end product shows the Coral trait...red head and red throughout body...why should it not be called a Coral?
The Pastel trait allthough refering to a lessening of black pigment...in the best specimens, the pinks and reds seem to be intensified.
When bred to into the Albino does it not make sense that the red will show through the Albino?

One more thing....You state...

Some may argue that pastel dreams albinos came from the an albino that descended from the original het that threw the corals... and that, of course, is a possibility. But make no mistake, the color came from the pastel influence... coral didnt sporadicly pop up into Jeff's albino line suddenly when he introduced pastelism to it (and to think it did would be irrational).

The Albino in my opinion is like a clear vessel. It's what you put in it that shows through. The Coral Albino in my opinion will vanish in time of breedings if the red color does not get infused back in from some other source...the Albino does not harbor its own color ...it allows color to be shown. This stuff is real hard for me to communicate. In a few years ...if all goes well, I will try and show some of this....although I admit it is only my opinion.

Take a look at a few posts earlier...FrankM posted a Red Hypo that is totally incredible...Run that animal through an albino and watch what gets produced. I have a good hunch, what would come out the other side.. How about everyone else? What do you think you would get? Andy

....

"If the end product shows the Coral trait...red head and red throughout body...why should it not be called a Coral?"

Thats like saying: If you have a genetic abberant boa that looks jungle but isnt known to be from the sweedish jungle line, why should it not be called jungle?

(Because its not known to be from that line)

"The Pastel trait allthough refering to a lessening of black pigment...in the best specimens, the pinks and reds seem to be intensified."

Pastel is defined as a certain level of reduced black. Nothing more, nothing less. The purpose of pastelism is to reveal color to selectively breed towards it. Pastel bloodlines will typically have color tied to them, yes. But the term pastel has nothing to do with color.

"When bred to into the Albino does it not make sense that the red will show through the Albino?"

Of course.

Albino in boas takes away melanin, nothing more. Dont have to say its just your opinion, thats a fact. Actually, we dont have albino boas, we have amelanistic boas (albino is lacking all pigment). Levels of etherin (red) and xanthin (yellow) will be revealed when stripping all black (melanin).

"Take a look at a few posts earlier...FrankM posted a Red Hypo that is totally incredible...Run that animal through an albino and watch what gets produced. I have a good hunch, what would come out the other side.. How about everyone else? What do you think you would get?"

A redder albino of course.

"Good post Topnotch, but I am in agreement with Pete."

Thanks. What exactly are you in agreement with Pete? I have not heard a defenitive answer from Pete. Coral is either a phenotype (like the "pastel" phenotype for example) or it is a (phenotype within a) bloodline.

For example:

Pastel is a phenotype

Pastel Dreams are a bloodline

The phenotype "Pastel" is not defined by color in any way, shape, or form.

The bloodline "Pastel Dreams" is known for high red (thats what Jeff bred for, pastelism allowed him to do it more effeciently).

For example:

Pastel is a phenotype

Pastel Dreams are a bloodline

I think the Pastel dreams are awesome, however I think when you say bloodline you are saying it is a genetic trait that will continue on its own...is that right?

I say that unless red is continually added by selective breeding, it will dissapear.

The phenotype "Pastel" is not defined by color in any way, shape, or form.

I realize what the rule book already states, but I sumwhat dissagree. If Pastels are produced by stringing a known characteristic in a boa to accelerate and accentuate that known trait then it will reverse when the stringing stops.
Black is dominant.

The bloodline "Pastel Dreams" is known for high red (thats what Jeff bred for, pastelism allowed him to do it more effeciently).

I answered this statement above.

Bloodline means a particular line of boas.

Salmons are a bloodline of hypo.

Davey Pastels are Davey's bloodline of pastel.

EBV Red Groups are east bay vivariums bloodline of pastel.

etc..

"I say that unless red is continually added by selective breeding, it will dissapear."

No. Failing to selectively breed towards red will not make an anery (no etherin).

The only way to highly reduce etherin is to selectively breed it out. In every litter you will have a variation of levels of etherin in the boas. In order to decrease etherin you would have to breed the individuals with the least amount of red over many generations. Etherin is often covered up by melanin. Many boas with high etherin will not show it because they have too much melanin, which covers it. In order to reduce etherin, melanin would need to be reduced and again, the red would need to be selectively bred out. Adding etherin (red) works the same way as eliminating it. Whether or not you could completely eliminate etherin (ie make an anery boa) through selective breeding is up for debate, I would doubt it. Its likely that could only happen through a mutation.

"I realize what the rule book already states, but I sumwhat dissagree. If Pastels are produced by stringing a known characteristic in a boa to accelerate and accentuate that known trait then it will reverse when the stringing stops."

If the pastel phenotype is defined in any way by color, how much color does there need to be for it to be described as a pastel?

The originator says none... it has no bearing in DEFINING what is and isnt a pastel. Pastel only describes a reduction in black.

The goal of pastel is to breed towards more color (red or yellow) and pastel bloodlines will have color tied to them.

Anyone who says color defines a pastel does not understand the trait or is thinking of a pastel bloodline rather than the phenotype defenition "Pastel". This often causes confusion.

"Black is dominant."

I dont even know how to answer that one. If you want to explain what you mean by that further I'll be glad to help you understand. Melanin (Browns/Blacks) is controlled by multiple genes.

Here are a few pics of my "coral" albino female.

N/P