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Got this 03' female from Peter Jolles (Sweet Pickle) from a trade. It is a Krysko 03' female goini . . .I'm very happy with her; She's a beauty, but I think she's a goini X Eastern because of the somewhat skinnier bands, less speckling in the dark interspaces and the mostly black belly (check next picture/post). What's your opinion, guys/gals? THANKS in advance for you input!

(Can't wait to breed her next year)!!!

Zee

Here's a (kind of blurry) pic of her belly:
I thought that goini's have mostly yellow bellies. Am I wrong? Just wondering. . . Thanks for looking. . .

Zee

Hey Zee,
Remember with Kryskos line you are talking about WC parents with yours being F1s or F2s (I don't know the specifics). Kryskos adults I believe where caught by his son. He based one of his papers on those animals. So you need to make a choice on which side of the Goini be a speices debate you want to stand on, then decide based on that, if she is a Goini. In my opinion what you have is as close to a true Goini as is available to my knowledge. I don't know of anybody else with breeding animals from that region that aren't at least F5s or more. Admitedly I have not looked that hard for breeders and have a pair from somewhat unknown origin but when I think of Goini I think of Lennys stock. And by the way I was pissed when Sean walked up in Daytona and picked up the adults. I was trying to get them for myself. Anyway with that out of the way I will place my vote on Goini and go a step further and say let me know when the babies are available and who the daddy is. I will probably want a pair.

Later Jason

...it may help you to know that I was after Len for years to get those as well. So don't feel bad. He'd go from "never sell" to "maybe" etc. Oh well.
As far as the snakes being pure, I suppose just because they are wc does not make them "pure" eiher. What I understand to be a "pure" goini/meansi/whatever would be much less patterned anyway??
They may be from wc, but that locale may be an intergrade zone, right?
I dunno.
:Mark

Hey Mark
Good to know that I have the base of a lets hate Sean club.
Ok real quick I have started two different replys and got cut off before I could finish and my home computer is dead right now. So the short answer is I just feel better about the animals that Lenny had. I get a bad feeling about alot of other lines as far as them being crossed with other Getula. I like the natural feel of this line. Thats it no science just feelings and a opinion. Are they pure?? As pure as you are gonna find in the wild I think. Are there better lines out there?? Maybe but that is a individual choice. .02
Later Jason

Thanks, Jason. I'm hoping to come along a genuine (male) wild caught or another Krysko animal soon. I now have two nice females and zero males!

Zee

Jason, Those WC adults were found by Ray and Steve Sokol back in March 1992. They went through several hands before Len finally got a hold of them. Kenney Krysko only found one Apalachicola King that I know of and it was hit on the road just before he found it.

Very interesting.

WOW I guess I asked the wrong queastions when I talked to those guys. I think I am gonna start a club for all the guys who are jealous of your herping trips and the fact that you got some of Lennys animals You are killing us in the cold and some of the guys south of you to. Keep on kick a$$ in the field and I will keep on gettin new members LOL
Later Jason

WOW I guess I asked the wrong queastions when I talked to those guys. I think I am gonna start a club for all the guys who are jealous of your herping trips and the fact that you got some of Lennys animals You are killing us in the cold and some of the guys south of you to. Keep on kick a$$ in the field and I will keep on gettin new members LOL
Later Jason

LOL! Where are you from Jason?

Hey Sean I met you in Daytona when you picked up those Goini. I was the tall guy talking to Len. I was in Florida till about this past December. Now... Chicago. We are at 45 degrees today and are hopeing for the 60s by the weekend. Its killing me to go from the herp paradise of the South to this snakeless void. Ok i may be being a little dramatic but I have only found a Tiger Sal. so far.
Later Jason

Jason, I do remember meeting you...I'm 6'3" and you were taller than me! Anyway, I thought you did live in FL but did not know you moved to Chicago? What in the world were you thinking?

I have a Goini Quad (1.3) which includes a patternless male, a blotched female, a chained patterned female, and a blaze phase female and they all have nearly patternless-completely patternless bellies... i put my vote on a X... either way she's a nice king.

~ZF

Thanks Z! I do like the way she looks (a little like an OBK), which are illegal here in NC, LOL!

Zee

Zee, I would say that king is more Eastern but does have some Apalachicola King influence. Do you know which set of parents she came from? Len had several pairs...one was the WC pair I got from him and he had several others I think that were all CB. As for the pattern on the ventral scales, the more patternless looking animals basically have all bicolored scales...mostly yellow with a dark edge on each scale. Specimens that have more Eastern in them show the typical pattern like yours but will also have some bicolored scales as well. Then again, I bought a female from Len in 2003 that came from the WC pair and she had a solid black belly...interesting stuff.

Exactly what I was thinking too, which is why I posted this snake on here in the first place.
It is a confusing, but wonderful species to work with: (When breeding goinis) it's like Forest Gump once said: It's like a box of chocolates; You never know what you're going to get, LOL!
Thanks for the info, Sean! (Now, if I could just get a male,LOL!!!)

Zee

Exactly what I was thinking too, which is why I posted this snake on here in the first place.
It is a confusing, but wonderful species to work with: (When breeding goinis) it's like Forest Gump once said: It's like a box of chocolates; You never know what you're going to get, LOL!
Thanks for the info, Sean! (Now, if I could just get a male,LOL!!!)

I agree (about the confusing part). But when you really look at this population, I think you can tell which specimens are more pure by how much interband lightening they have, how wide the bands are, and the ventral scales. It's obvious which ones have more of an Eastern influence but then again, what is the pure thing? Kenney Krysko's paper in which he names this population after Bruce Means has not been published yet (that I know) so I for one am eager to see what he describes as the pure thing. I would definitely say the patternless and striped forms are pure but I find it hard to tell which blotched specimens would be considered pure or not. Either way, definitely an interesting species to work with and one that I will continue to search for and learn as much as I can about.

IMHO, "goini" by definition are integrades! Maybe there used to be a such a thing as "pure" meansi but they have long since com in contact with eastern populations. As with any integrade you can breed them together and get some offspring that look more like one parent form or the other so going by phenotype alone can only lead to incomplete conclusions.

I would say you have a goini there that is manefesting its eastern heritage. LOL

Good answer Tony! IMHO I DO believe that there IS Eastern influence in a lot of goinis/meansis these days. After all, how many years does it take for an eastern king to spread itself to more suitable habitat such as the A. Forest in FL. You would think that at least 10000 years is plenty of time to cover the entire forest (if it wanted to or even by accident) - Or whenever the last ice age ended, LOL!

Zee

I agree Tony. A relict population of "integrades". I have seen many wild caught animals from the Snake-A-Torium since the 80s. Any pattern imaginable or no pattern. I have not collected a live "goini", but did pick up a brown chain with a yellow belly just W. of Appalach, right in the middle of an area that I have seen heavily speckled DOR "goini". Actually I'm headed that next week. Hope to see one. BTW, the prettiest chain I ever personally saw was a recent DOR from just East of Suwanee River FL. She was jet black with a pale yellow chain 2 scales wide.
Jim McLean

At a second glance I would say it is a Goini with eastern influance like everybody else. But I would like to see your other one from that line. I do like that line from Len and will still be interested if you can find a good male.
Later Jason

I WILL be looking . . .hoping . . .praying, LOL!

Zee