Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey, so you all may remember back in December I was given a TINY three toed boxturtle that was found in the street on a warm day. So I decided to keep it, at least until the spring when it could be given away or released. Anyway, I got it eating (like a damn horse no less) and all seems well. Today while feeding/soaking the little turtle I noticed that it looks like its scutes are splitting apart. I have had adult boxies and have had eggs (that hatched, but all the hatchlings were given away before they got this big) so I know all about their care. I dont however know if this is the process of normal growth or if this is something to worry about. Any ideas? Oh yeah the turtle is about 37mm and 19 grams. The first few fics from the front the "split" appears dirty, this is a bit of dirt from the substrate (cypress and topsoil, baked for sterility). Thanks....

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Ian,
I remembered your original post, and looked at the pics you had posted back then for comparison to these latest ones. I saw a big difference in the appearance of its shell back then versus now.
The little guy's shell has thickened considerably, probably as a result of too much protein and/or lack of UVB. I've not seen the 'peeling' effect before, but it may be something that can happen with MBD. Junior definitely now has a malformed shell that needs to be addressed.
I don't feed my hatchlings crickets, so forgive me (everyone) if I don't have the terminology right: do you 'gut load' the crickets before you feed them, or even dust them with vitamins? I would guess that Junior would benefit from the crickets healthy diet. Another option might be to dip the crickets in pureed veggies before feeding to Junior.
Hatchlings do eat more protein than adults, but in the wild they don't really have the opportunity to become fixated on one food, plus, they eat whatever their prey just ate, which is no doubt how they end up getting a fairly balanced diet.
Have you tried feeding it moistened Reptomin? It has a better balance of ingredients than many commercial foods, and hatchlings usually accept it readily.
Stephanie

Yes the crickets are "gut loaded" with flukers high calcium food and "water". Additionally the crickets are dusted with repcal calcium and D3. The little turtle is in a 29 gal aquarium with an arcadia UVB lamp (7.0%), I am expierenced in keeping torts of many types and know the importance of calcium/D3/UVB when they are young. This little guy does not have MBD, this much I am sure of. The groiwth just seems odd. I would be very surprised if any captive raised boxies (especially when wild caught at 7 grams) did not have a bit of "diformity" when young. I have had redfoots and leopards that had really "deformed" looking shells that smoothed out as the animal grew larger.

That being said, I dont really know what normal growth at small stages should look like in a boxie so I am not trying to totally dismiss your opinion. I believe that the animals diet is too high in protien, an am attempting to address this (see above post). I have a very good friend who is an expirenced exotic animal vet (he keeps sulcatas and aldabras so he knows his turtles and tortoises) who I will take the animal to soon. I just wanted some opinions before him and I talk. Thanks for your input, I'll try the reptomin....

-Ian

What is the humidity level? The humidity should be around 70-80%. They usually live in the wild in a damp environment such as a boggy area, under leaf litter, etc. A recent article in reptiles magazine also explains a breeders experience with humidity in correcting pyramiding.

With spotted hatchlings I noticed that I had to put a partial top over the tank to trap the humidity otherwise they began this.

Mark

I also keep redfoot torts (which love/require humidity) so I know the importance of humidity. I think that a combination of low humidity low temps and high protien is the cause of pyramiding.

I make a concious effort to keep this turtles tank humid (this is why I like aquariums, humidity is easier to keep high). I am thinking that in addition to the reduction of the high protien diet it is currently eating that perhaps even more humidity is needed. Right now I pour water on the substrate (2" thick cypress an topsoil) every other day while soaking the turtle. Additionally, I mist the substrate whenever I walk by the tank and it looks dry (maybe twice a day). As soon as I noticed this I immediately started misting even more. We will see if this helps...

Thanks

-Ian

I broke down & looked this up in the Mader Reptile Medicine & Surgery book. It does mention this & states that sloughing, peeling of the shell can be caused improper nutrition with bacterial or fungal infection being a secondary problem brought on by too much humidity.
Another cause would be chronic renal failure but with that you'd see oozing.
Maybe keeping it humid but a little drier would help?
This is a fascinating problem I hope you are able to solve it.

PHRatz

So basically it looks like everyone's suggestions are about right, try and correct the diet and get it humid but not wet...

By the way, the shell doesn't appear to be peeling exactly. I have seen turtles and torts that look like the scutes are delaminating. This is very different, these appear to be seperating and spreading as to accomidate new growth. They are not delaminating or coming apart, its really very strange...

-Ian

I agree, this is due to growth; excessive or abnomal in some other respect, from an undetermined but narrowed list of possible causes. I don't think any infections are at work here, with respect to the carapace condition we are seeing. renal problems may present itself though with extended hypercalcemia or excessive protein, and I'm not saying it isn't present here. but based on the information so far, I am leaning away from hypercalcemia because the frequency and proportions you stated you were giving sound pretty middle of the road.

Mick

I think you are right. I really think that its just too damn much pritien and too little of everything else (espically fiber)!

-Ian

The turtle has grown from 35mm to 39mm in the last 4.5 months, this growth in length should be accompanied by some growth in thickness of the shell, shouldnt it? The shell really doesn't look disproportionate in any way (I have seen the pictures of juviniles fed dog food and such, terrible terrible), the growth may be the start of very mild pyrmading. Just thought I'd add that. Anyway, thanks for the input...

-ian

Oh yeah, humidity is kept up also, as to avoid dehydration

Ian,
You seem to have taken offence to my response, when I was trying to offer some help. The peeling/splitting shell your photos illustrated is not what I would consider to be normal or desirable: I also noted some other potential problems.
Can you post a photo with a profile view of the little guy? And of its plastron? That may help show us overall growth. The thickness of the shell should be proportionate, with growth more evident between the scutes. The views you posted show shell that looks very thick around the edges, almost curling upwards, which is not ideal. I don't have a digital camera or I'd take pix of my hatchlings as an example.
Also, have you replaced the lightbulb recently?
I had one hatchling start to take on the same appearance this winter (thickened, 'rolled' looking shell growth), which is when I realized that the UV element in the light bulb had fizzled: I replaced the bulb, hatchling is now growing normally.

Regards,
Stephanie

Stephanie, I didn't take offense, sorry if it sounded that way. I agree that the growth is less than desireable, this is why I posted this message. The UV bulb is approx 3 months old, I usually replace them every 6 months (they are flourescents).

When you say "profile" do you mean top or side? I will post some more pics soon.

Once again, sorry for the tone of my post, yesterday was a frustration day, but seriously, I didn't take offense. Thaks for you replys. Pics coming soon....

-Ian

Hey Ian,
By profile, I meant side view, of the entire body if you can.
I wasn't passing judgement about the cricket diet, I just don't happen to feed them to my hatchlings (unless I catch them in the course of looking for other edibles) because I can find a range of foods in my yard. I realize that everyone's situation is different.
Perhaps others will suggest ways to vary Junior's diet that will work for you: I have found that small slugs and/or snails are a favorite with our hatchlings, and millipedes and pill bugs as well. I don't know where you live, but if you can, go look under rocks or logs for various bite-sized creatures to try.
Regards,
Stephanie

I don't think there's much chance this is a case of insufficient calcium ( looks like a male so far, abnormalities notwithstanding ). but it may be too much, if anything. gut loading crickets, calcium dusting, and D3 dusting may be excessive. powdered D3 supplements already have added calcium. also, daily D3 is not necessary with ample UVB. with sufficient exposure to UVB the turtle will make his own. excessive calcium supplementation ( hypercalcemia ) can cause MBD as well, and, I wouldn't rule this out from looking at the pictures. excess calcium can cause deficiency in other vitamins & minerals also. in conjunction with too much D3 though, this will cause calcification of soft tissue and other abnormalities.

these abnormalities may also be very rapid growth from excessive protein. the fact is that strictly speaking pryamiding IS a form of MBD. reptiles with significant pyramiding often have poor bone density and deformities in the underlying bone, and, excess protein will interfere with calcium metabolism. especially with frequent crickets that have a Ca ratio of about 1:6! it is simply put, a "Metabolic Bone Disorder"...and to a word, matches what is presently seen. whether from too much protein...or too much calcium & D3, something essential nutritionally was not addressed. the good news is that it's not too bad to correct, and he's still very young.

Mick

Mick has a good point. Excessive vitamins & minerals can cause the same effect as not enough & that's MBD.
I've never seen a peeling carapace like that either. I do wonder if too much of a good thing caused this?
How often do you powder the food?

PHRatz

It is fed four times a week (maybe three 1/2" crickets each time) and they are LIGHTLY dusted every other feeding. Because of its size and the cricket's speed it is hand fed so some of the dust comes off, either on my hands or whatever. I dont think its too much but I could be wrong, this is why I am posting, thanks for the help...

-ian

Hey Ian,
something to think about, not only for turtles, but other herps, one can dust prey items, but often the animal, in the course of manipulating said food object before ingestion, will rub off most of the powder. it is not always readily noticable if one doesnt look closely. it can be helped dusting one or two small prey items, and tweezer feeding and trying to get it into the mouth at a good angle so that it is swallowed relatively quickly and not pawed around. also what i have done for animals that are loath to take dusted prey becuase of the taste/smell, is to pinch the head of a mealworm so that some fluid is beading out, and coat that part with powder, which adheres to the moisture, and then feed it that way.

most hatchling box turtles will readily take softened reptomin, the key seems to offer it to them while they are soaking. for the few that dont initially take to it, persistance pays off. i have one that refused reptomin consistently for a few months, but most every time i soaked it i tossed in a few sticks. out of the blue one day(just a few weeks ago) it started scarfing on it, and it hasnt looked back.

that boxie is starting on the course of abnormal growth, for whatever reason. also if it has been active and feeding for 4 or 5 months it should weigh more.
good luck with it,
ian

So here is what I have gathered from all the posts so far:

First, diet is lacking (obviously I agree). I have acquired some reptomin and have tried to feed the turtle this. It has refused so far but I will be persistent. I will also try dipping the crickets in baby food to try and switch to a less protien based diet.

Second, perhaps too much calcium? I guess I will start dusting only once a week and see how this goes. I will still feed and water the crickets with the flukers food and water.

A few comments, I am hesisitant to accept the "MBD" diagnosis, my problem is that I think that the term "MBD" has become a broad discription of appearance of symptoms rather than an actual specific condition. Much like RNS (runny nose syndrome) which could be any number of problems such as upper or lower resperatory track infections, pnemonia, ect. I think that describing specific causes of conditions like calcium defficency or a protien rich diet is more productive. Curing "MBD" requires reversing the cause, MBD seems to have become such a broad spectrum of problems that simply saying that the turtle has MBD is not only a bit of a cop out but it also doesn't lead to much of a soloution.

Second, in looking at the can of reptomin I see that it has a roughly 40% protien content and only 2% fiber. Is this really that good for a box turtle? While I am aware that boxies generally need more protien than tortoises and less fiber it seems that feeding a food that is so high in protien in an attempet to cure a diet that is too high in protien doesn't seem that productive. Do you who use reptomin reccomend that that it be a supplement or an entire diet? If just for supplementation what should the rest of the diet be: fruits/veggies/greens or live foods? It seems like something like mazuri tortoise chow would be better (roughly 15% protien and 18% fiber) plus maye some live food supplementation. Help me out, shed some light on this reptomin thing...

Thanks to everyone, your help is greatly appreciated (even if I seem a bit snappy, sorry steph)!!!

-Ian

You're asking good questions.
The Reptomin contains a wider range of vitamins and minerals, and (even at 40%) less protein, than crickets.
Its balanced enough to be fed exclusively.
There are plenty of turtle keepers out there who have raised healthy hatchlings with normal shell growth on Reptomin alone: in fact it is the recommended diet for 'headstarting' turtles, although I myself feed other things along with it.
Stephanie

Cool, so reptomin and maybe a cricket or strawberry or something every once in a while. Now all I have to do is get the turtle to actually eat the reptomin!

-Ian

When I need to get my turts to eat something they don't want, I mix it with beef baby food. Works everytime! Then just slowly decrease the amount of baby food.
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0.1.0 snapping turtle
0.1.0 painted turtle
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
0.1.0 Australian shepard
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3.2.0 children
1.0.0 husband

ok, three 1/2" crickets, 4 times a week, lightly dusted every other feeding...sounds ok so far. what you can do to make the crickets easier for the turtle to catch, is snip off the hind legs so they can't jump away. I ususally do this after I have swirled them around good in a bowl full of dust, and they are good and disoriented. they can still crawl at a good pace though, which will still keep your baby active in catching them. I use the smallest crickets available, usually the 1/4" "pinheads". their exoskeletons are much softer making for easier digestion, as the cricket, like mealworms and many other invertibrates, have much indigestible chitin. I recommend using smaller in volume, rather than a few big ones. this will also help prevent impactions from the indigestibles.

as long as you are feeding crickets almost exclusively, dusting with calcium and a multivitamin every other feeding is ok. I would just cut back on the additional D3 supplement if you are also using a good UVB lamp or natural sunlight. it is the presence of excessive D3 in the system along with excess calcium that causes the hypercalcemia problem. without the excess D3 present, the excess calcium would just pass through the turtle's system. I'd do a little pinch of D3 once a week at most if also using an additional calcium supplement.

with regards to MBD diagnosis; MBD is a specific "condition" that can be brought about by a "broad number" of "causes" to be precise. you are correct that stating a diagnosis of MBD does not determine or address precisely the root cause, and there may be several factors at work. however, it will point to a more narrowed field of possible causes to look into, and since all the specifics of the husbandry with this turtle were not know at first, it was correct for Steph to offer MBD as a general possibility. that was not a cop out, but probably an attempt to elicit more husbandry information to eventually get more specific. that is the logical and clinical order of progression to address the issue. I made sure to include some of those possible causes after the question of MBD came up though.

I am personally not a fan of Reptomin as a staple diet, or other such canned, processed, bottled foods, etc. . though, 40% protein is not that high. many captive hatchling and yearling box turtles have diets 60% and above in protein. I would only use it as a supplement if you can get the turtle to eat other things. yes, the rest of the diet should be composed of greens/veggies/fruit. the recommended ratio is between 60%/30%/10% and 50%/40%/10% ( protein/veggies/fruit ). I usually consider leafy greens as 10% or more of the veggie category. as I said before, the posts I referenced in the previous message contain links to this information. you can find it at Tess Cooks site boxturtlesite.org or Melissa Kaplan's site anapsid.org.

Mick

I am not using any "additional" D3 supplement, just waht is allready in the calcium mix. The D3 and calcium is one powder (repcal calcium/D3 in the pink tub, im sure you have seen it).

I always pinch the back legs of the crickets. Usually I let the turtle grab the cricket from my hand. It usually drops and then chases the cricket after that, so it is getting some good excercise.

I am aware that MBD is an actual and specific condition but I think that perhaps it is often used as a term of art rather than a condition, I think we are on the same page on this.

Right now I think I am going to start chopping crickets and mix them in with some greens and reptomin maybe. Its funny how you can have vegetarian torts down to such a science and then have bad luck/screw up with omnivorous boxies so bad! I would love to get this guy back on the right track as quickly as possible though!

-Ian

Hopefully one of the responses here has been helpful. If all else fails can you take this baby to a vet?

PHRatz

The posts are helpful and yes, I am good friends with a VERY expierenced herp vet (who keeps and LOVES torts). It wont be a problem, the animal WILL see a vet, just wanted to get some alternate opinions before the vet visit happens...

-Ian

Ian,
Great! I'm glad you know a good herp vet, you're lucky to have a vet who loves torts. I know how that is, I had a vet who would treat one but needed to call other vets to consult. Then a vet moved here & opened a new clinic, she's a vet who knows how to treat reptiles & other exotics, It's so wonderful to have a vet nearby who knows what to do.
Of course you will come back & tell us what the vet says, right?
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who's interesting in finding out what's causing this problem.

PHRatz