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Luna is done. Feeding ??? for the "experts" out there...(morgana, tyler, chris, eric, etc...)

lele May 05, 2005 04:25 PM

She laid 34 eggs weighing 24g. She was 102g yesterday and 78g this morning. I am shocked that she had so many! Having been thru her huge clutches in the past she has always looked more gravid before laying. I expected to find maybe 20 eggs. Excatly 2 weeks ago (April 21st) my vet did an ultrasound and said he saw egg follicles - is that possible? For her to have completely developed eggs in just 2 weeks? She had that very strange fluid retention (up to 132g and down to 110g in a week).

Ok, on to feeding questions. It seems that everyone agrees that I over feed her after she lays. Beginning today I will keep track of everything she eats, every day for the next couple months. Today she ate one large, dusted female cricket and about 6 1/2" silkies (they were all stuck together so she got them all at once). I offered her a roach but no go, but she did take a small piece of strawberry. I gave her 1 drop of NCg and she will be getting her Calcium tested next Monday. Should I start feeding her every other day starting now? Or should I let her eat all she wants this weekend and then maybe begin a new routine next week? Because she went so long with almost no food I am more concerned about her nutrients then anything.

Any suggestions/routines appreciated! Thanks,
lele
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

Replies (13)

lele May 05, 2005 04:49 PM

I know she always has these large clutches but maybe her eggs are smaller since infertile. They average .5" long x .25" wide. What is the size of fertile eggs?
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

eric adrignola May 05, 2005 08:14 PM

For comparison, I used to breed veileds quite regularly 8 years ago or so - just before I moved to NC. I would feed my females about every other day from 6 months to 12 months. After their first breeding and egg-laying, I would cut back their food dramatically - just 5-6 insects per week, mostly greens fruit and flowers the rest of the week. I also watered them once or twice a week - that is all. I waited until my females showed receptive coloration, then I mated them - none of this forced BS - I made my males court them, display, etc. Until the females were happy to mate.

I never had a female lay more than three clutches per year.
After the first clutch, I never had more than 37 eggs(usually 20-30) and they were huge eggs.

I know most breeders get many more clutches out of their females, I think hydration plays as much of a factor as food intake. None of my females ever had bad sheds, or showed signs of dehydration.

they hated getting misted, so I didn't. Most of the time, I'd do it once a week, so they could clean their eyes.

I tend to give them more water, and frequent mistings now, but I still think people over-hydrate their veileds. I kinda suspect it plays a part in clutch size.

Anson May 05, 2005 10:51 PM

I just realized i don't hydrate Luna's sister very often.
She is so neurotic and hates the misting so I don't do it as often as I thought I should be.
She really only drinks a couple times a week. I wet the screen and she runs and hides so I stop. Around twice a week she will go to it and start licking the screen and then I use a long handled pump sprayer misting type nozzle and let her drink the drops from that. I always worry that she does not drink much but maybe it has a lot to do with the reason I don't get more than two clutches a year from her. I only get around 20 really big eggs at a time when she is bred. She always looks and acts super healthy.
Maybe too much water somehow can leach out the calcium from her system because I know you supplement her enough but she seems to have MBD
Maybe that is part of the key plus the reason Luna had the water gain thing happening. I also keep Ohana on the very dry side humidity wise.
I don't use a humidifier at all for my veileds and the house is air conditioned so is pretty dry year round. I have found that they seem much healthier that way. They seem to eat better and are less lethargic that way. The only humidity is from misting a few times a day. I keep my panthers a bit more humid but still not as humid as most people do. I know it is not recommended but i seem to have better luck that way. I think i was having more problems with things like edema. When i cut way down on supplements and humidity it seems i had less problems.

lele May 06, 2005 10:00 AM

and sitting under dripper opening her mouth looking for water, or practically "running" to her dripper bottle (I hand water, too) I cannot say no and cut back. In the past she really didn't drink that much but since last December it seemed like I could not get her hydrated. If the humidifier was off her humidity was 20% and it was a real effort to get it up to 50% for any length of time. Believe me, I would be happy not to have to be all stressed over her drinking on top of all her other stuff. ;-/

As for the fluid retention, I think it was from the fluids my vet gave her, b/c it was right after that she bloated then lost it all.

Well, today she has eaten 3 1.5" silkies. I will not feed her agin until Sunday. I will get her outdoors again today for some sun.

I think I want to lower her general basking temps and now that I have the temp gun I can get more accurate readings than with the digital. I would also like to do a brumation of sorts with her next winter. So 3 questions:

1 - what is lowest basking temp she could sustain and still get her heat and digest properly
2- has anyone ever done a cool down for their cham in winter
3- what size are fertile eggs? I posted above and am curious as to how hers compare.

thanks!!!
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

eric adrignola May 06, 2005 10:11 AM

Fertle eggs can vary tremendously, depending on the condition of the female and how many were in a clutch. I've seen some3/4 of an nch, some over an inch, some rounded, some elongated.

I've seen infertile eggs from a healthy female that were bigger than fertile eggs from a female that layed around 70 eggs.

Water her if her if she look dehydrated. It could be the neocalglucon, does that cause dehydration?

When she's stable, cut back a bit. If she's dehydrating quickly, there's other problems.

lele May 06, 2005 10:45 AM

Hi Eric,

As for wild in nature, please be assured I am an evolutionist all the way - just named my new beardie Darwin, after one of my heroes I am very involved in wildlife habitat design (part of my garden design business), native and invasive species, as well as raising wild silk moths (Saturniidae) for 6 years. So I am always saying to clients and audiences "Take your cues from nature. Think of how this plant/animal/insect exists in the wild." so I am with you on the natural selection thing! But I will say that since she is my first, never bred and finding very few (actually, I don't knwo if I have found ANY) who have not bred their girl at some point, I have had trouble getting experienced info.

You are not the first to suggest her possible need for being mated and I may have to agree. In humans, often when women have hormonal problems then have a baby their hormones get back on track. I mentioned this to my vet and he said it might be worth a try. I would not keep the eggs (sorry folks) but may see if he (vet) can put me in touch with another local cham owner just to mate her.

I probably have been overfeeding her and again it is b/c she goes so many weeks without food and all of this began only 3 months after I got her so I did not know what "normal" was. As I said in previous post I will cut back on feeding right away this time and see what happens. last summer she laid in May, December and July.

As for the water I certainly don't (couldn't) force her to drink. She drinks because she is thirsty and not well hydrated. I think anson's thought about leaching calcium may be a possibility.

I just called a water testing lab and for $89(!!!) I can get a complete run down on our water - it is all inclusive. I am going to pick up a kit and mull over it. I am so broke from all her vet bills I couldn't do it right away. ugh!

I have not used the NCg for quite some time until yesterday when she got one drop. Her Ca has been all over the place - you may have missed some of the posts (as there were many!) but her Ca was 9 in December and 21 just a few weeks ago so vet gave calcitonin injection. She was due to get her blood tested yesterday but since she decided to lay I postponed until Monday.

What do you think abut basking temp minimums?
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

eric adrignola May 06, 2005 10:03 AM

I have seen many well experienced people suggest watering their veields every single day,
using a misting system, humidifier, etc.

I'm keeping the deremensis and th emeller's now, as well as the veields. I do not have a
misting system on the veiled. The montane species used to drink every spraying. Now, they
drink with the monring misting, but not again - the mister goes off 6 times a day. 8:00 AM it
goes on in a series of one minute sprays - to get them stimulated ot drink. then, it sprays for
3-4 minutes so they can drink. The other mistings are for 1 minute at a time, and keep th
ehumidity up very high. they do not need to drink much at all if the proper humidity levels are
maintained - just once a day, and not too heavily, either.

I spray my veiled every other day or so. He'll just sit there sometimes, if he's already warmed
up. He will rarely drink, even if I spray in his mouth. I USED to put water in his dripper
every day, but he'd ignore it most of the time. Now, I just do it every other day to keep his
stupid ficus watered! He wont drink but once or twice a week, despite me offering it to
him.

Now, it is possible to get carried away. they are so toought and resilent that it's easy to
forget to water them. To make sure, I spray him lightly every other day or so, heavily once a
week, and sometimes with really warm water at night, to help with shedding. He has
problems shedding, but it's not related to hydration, it's injury related. This guy has managed
to burn himself very badly in the past, and when he was small, squeezed through some tight
branches, ripping off some dorasl spines. The skin in these areas doesn't shed very well, and
I always end up tweezing them out while he sleeps.

That's how my females were, 2 clutches a year, 20-30 eggs each, HUGE eggs, HUGE
babies, etc. After a few weeks of swelling, suckers were the size of leopard gecko eggs -
and they were NOT over watered!

I hatch them out huge, grow them slow, and have never had one of my hatchlings come down
with MBD.

Luna laying so many clutches is simply not right - there is something causing her body to
develop so many eggs. She should not have to ingest so much artificial supplementation - it's
not right. I have a few guesses:

She's developing eggs because he's lacking a fretilized clutch. Maybe, infertile females
develop eggs so often so they don't miss an oppurtunity to mate? I doubt this, because most
unmated females do not go through this.

Could be that too much food is causing her to develop so many eggs so often.

Could be so much water is causing he rto develop so many clutches.

Think about natural selection (even if you are a creationist, you can believe that natural
selection happens, so it's ok): They come from an area that could be lush and humid, rainy
and full of bugs one year, or dry, no rain, and have very few insects the next. If they live in
such a climate, they are adapted to it. It's not just THEM as individuals, either.

If there's very little food, and conditions are not optimal, how would you reproduce? Put out
a few babies that have a better individual shot at survival. They hatch out bigger and stronger,
and have a better chance at dealing with harsh condition. Plus, the female doesn't wear
herself out too much, she's already dealing with harsh times. Better stay alive and live to
reproduce again than put all your eggs in one basket.

If there's food and water in abundance, then what? Fat reserves could be put to good use,
and the female could lay a huge clutch of eggs. They will be smaller, and not as strong
individually. Since the times are good, and food is plentiful, they all have a better shot.
Laying so many eggs takes it's toll on the females, but it's OK - she's got 50 or more babies
coming. Femlaes that put all their eggs in one basket during times of plenty have obviously
been pretty successful, otherwise we wouldn't see that ability.

Now, during the course of incubation, weather changes, so th esize of the babies is of less
consequence than their numbers. I think the biggest factor is the female herself. Females that
lay a ton of eggs on good years and very few on bad ones have been successful.

I try to keep them in the middle, but with lots of plants. I think it's the protein that triggers the
big clutch sizes. With plants, they stay healthy, but not fat, and they don't lay big clutches.

Huge clutch females come out of the laying box skinny. Small clutch females look fine.

If I were you, I'd cut back on her food and water after she recovers.

evilcham May 06, 2005 04:01 AM

Woo, 34 eggs? Now, I understand why you have to pay so much attention on her.

twinoats May 06, 2005 10:12 AM

You do mean you will wait to restrict her food until she's recovered from laying, right? I could see the argument for a gradual tapering of food intake for a healthy, mature, actively egg-producing female, but one that is as compromised as Luna at this point, I would feed her as much as she wants until she's recovered and back up to pre-laying weight. What is that timeframe? I don't know. Laying is an enormous strain on a healthy cham's system, let alone a compromised one. I do understand your desire to curb her egg-production, but let her get back on her feet first!

IMHO,
~Kerry

lele May 06, 2005 10:58 AM

Hi Kerry,

That is what I have always done for the very reason you cite. But everyone is suggesting cutting back now. She just ate 3 silkies and has another on a branch nearby which she is not interested in. She also ate 2 adult crickets...
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

ChrisAnderson May 07, 2005 11:24 AM

>>You do mean you will wait to restrict her food until she's recovered from laying, right? I could see the argument for a gradual tapering of food intake for a healthy, mature, actively egg-producing female, but one that is as compromised as Luna at this point, I would feed her as much as she wants until she's recovered and back up to pre-laying weight. What is that timeframe? I don't know. Laying is an enormous strain on a healthy cham's system, let alone a compromised one. I do understand your desire to curb her egg-production, but let her get back on her feet first!
>>
>>IMHO,
>>~Kerry

Kerry,

While she is in a compromised state and a lot has been taken out of her laying the eggs, bringing her quickly up to pre-laying weight, IMO, acts like a shotgun of sudden nutrition that may be kicking her reproductive sycle into production due to the explosion of available nutrients. While I'm not advocating starving her and would caution that one should make sure their animals have properly gutloaded and supplemented pray, I feel that limiting and managing her weight gain so that it is slower and steady might at the very least increase the time period between layings which could help her other issues significantly.

I do have to disagree with Eric on the hydration stuff though. I've seen far to many veileds become compromised and die of organ damage that could have been prevented by better hydation. Being able to survive hardships in the wild doesn't mean these hardships don't shorten their life and it definately doesn't mean they are required for proper survival. While I understand the theory that providing excess could be helping to cause the increased production (its exactly the theory I'm talking about with the food), I think with her other issues, limiting the hydration could be a bad idea, especially since it seems like she's having trouble maintaining her hydration.

I found the idea about breeding her interesting. I definately wouldn't hatch the eggs if i were you but its an interesting idea, i don't think its ever been tested so who knows if it will work or not.

Chris
-----
Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Editor - Chameleons! Online E-zine: http://www.chameleonnews.com/
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lele May 07, 2005 01:43 PM

Thanks, Chris for your opinion on this. I probably should have clarified that even though she drinks a lot she often will sit under her dripper and just soak her head. Obvioulsy she feels she needs the hydration - or I have turned her into a little chameleon fish! lol! She absolutely loves her showers!

As for mating, I think I will look into it. I would first need to find a local healthy male and then figuring out when she might be receptive - I thought I USED to know, but her cycle/colors and behaviour have gotten a bit muddled ;-/ I would also opt to do it when she we would be gravid in the summer months so she could get lots of sun and not have the hydration issue. So if you know anyone...(I'm in NH). The logistics would get tricky, too. Would I bring the male to her? I would not feel comfortable handing her over to someone. hmmm... any thoughts?

lele
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

eric adrignola May 07, 2005 02:41 PM

I USED to hold back water quite extensivly. Now, I spray them daily, and offer drips every other day or so, they don't drink to often, but I offer it to them - I figure it's safer to let them decide. You are definatly correct that dehydration can have a wastign effect, and can lead to problems due to a weakend state - that's why I changed my watering methods.

I do think that it might be a possibility to water them too much. Regardless, I used to think they were stritly desert chameleons, and I'd water them once a week. Then I consulted an atlas, and did some extensive geographical studies of that area of arabia. I started to up my hydration QUITE a bit since then!

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