Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can someone post some pictures of hatchlings? I was sold a pair ratsnake hatchlings this winter, but I'm still not sure exactly what they are. The guy who sold them to me said they were green ratsnakes, but they're definitely not Senticolis. I'd post some pictures of them if I had a digital camera.

If he was calling them "green" you mostly likely got "greenish", but it's hard to tell from a juvinile sometimes, especially in the intergrades. Most of your NA ratsnakes look VERY similar as hatchlings untill about a year old when they start getting their attributing markings and color a bit better. Sometimes sooner than that but at a year it should pretty much narrow it down...I don't have any pictures to post here, but I've got some at my website under the "pictures" link of some yearling greenish's, maybe that can help you out.
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Conrad
Too Fast Reptiles
www.toofastreptiles.bravehost.com

They don't look very much alike as juveniles. Go to this page to see a baby Green Rat. http://www.greggsrb.com/triaspis-boxcanyon.htm

These are of a greenish rat and a black rat. Both as hatchling and as yearling/adult.

This is my greenish rat as a hatchling....

And this is my black rat as a hatchling....

Here is what the greenish looked like in Jan, and she is even nicer looking now...

And the black rat....

This is what is so cool about the rat snakes. They all start out looking similar, and end up looking worlds apart!! Once you see hatchlings of the different ssp. you will be able to tell them apart most of the time from the subtle color differences. But it can be difficult. Watching them go through their ontogenetic change is really cool!!
Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

I was given a "greenish" rat snake last year (black x yellow intergrade), and on the one I had, his belly scales showed a tinge of yellow that you do not see on young black rats from southern Virginia.

I have pictures of him before I gave him away, but because of the indoor lighting, the faint yellow color did not show up in the photos.

I have a greenish trio and the girls look very like yours but the male has tons of orange. Is this unusual? I love his color.
This is Rusty and one of the girls.

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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

That's awesome coloration, I've never seen one quite like that.

Maybe the females, but hat male isn't a "true" greenish. If he retains tha much pattern as an adult, you are clearly looking at some captive "cooked-up" attempt at "creating" greenishes. Very unfotunate tha people do this, as what I call, "natural strain" greenishes have a identity that's all their own. What you have there is invariably an unpure bloodline. Now, if that snake loses it's blotches and becomes orange with the bands, you've might just have a yellow rat...but being marketed as a greenish, it would be hard to prove purity.

Again, just my two cents about these guys. As anyone whos seen me post on this issue before will tell you.. I'm a purist, call it my flaw. I don't have anything against mutations, just cross-breeds. And the greenish has sort of lost it's place due to these cross-breedings. It's really a shame in my eyes.

Greenishes are quite variable in color naturally, about like an of the NA ratsnakes tend to be...as the pictured below shows a very dark(also in shed when found), specimen. But they generally are more olive green and can have light juvinile pattern all the way into adulthood, but sometimes the pattern fades completely.

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Conrad
Too Fast Reptiles
www.toofastreptiles.bravehost.com

Now I'm confused...I thought the greenish WAS a cross between a black rat and a yellow rat...come to think of it, I guess I'm confused about the difference between a "cross" and an "intergrade"...I'm thinking an "intergrade" is a naturally occurring cross and a "cross" is a man-made cross? So you would be a purist about natural intergrades, but not be in favor of artificial man-made crosses? Thanks for any help unconfusing me...

SR

Well, technically the natural for is an "intergrade" as the variation has been produced down to a near sub-species in wild populations over the centuries. The crosses that are unatural are technically referred to as "hybrids" which aren't a proven natural strain. As proven by the previous photos, you can't just hybridize a yellow and a black and make anything that looks like the intergrades.

Well, hopefully this just spills deeper into confusion...it's pretty clear to me though...Like I said, calm me flawed as a purist, but I also like a clear glass of cold water...anything floating isn't appealing to me...
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Conrad
Too Fast Reptiles
www.toofastreptiles.bravehost.com

The greenish is an intergrade between the black rat snake and the yellow rat snake where their ranges overlap. A cross is a man made animal. For those purists, locale intergrades are the only "true" intergrade. For instance, if you took a pair of intergrade greenish rats from the same locale and bred them, you would get a true locale intergrade. Now if you took a very nice looking yellow and a nice black rat and bred them for the greenish trait, you would get a cross greenish, not a true intergrade, but a greenish nontheless, just not a "true" intergrade. Most of the man made crosses are more colorful than the natural intergrades. Not all, but most are. There are some intergrades out there that just cannot be improved upon.

Just like here in KY, we have the intergrade red X eastern milk. They are a naturally occuring intergrade and can be bred to produce natural intergrades. You get the same effect if you take a red milk and cross it with an eastern. You could probably keep outcrossing for a specific look and have an "intergrade" that is more eye appealing than the natural occuring intergrades, but the people who are into locale specific stuff would rather have the natural occuring snake. The natural intergrades here can be rather dull looking, or very attractive!! Just comes with the territory when it comes to natural intergrades. Lots of different looking snakes when it comes to natural intergrades.

So it is just dependant on what you are looking for and if you want locale specific snakes. I like both. I enjoy the natural snakes we have here in KY and I also like the non-KY-native snakes that I have in my collection that are very attractive!!

Hope this helps
Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Aha! Thanks so much, I think I finally get it...since I work at an animal shelter, it makes sense to me in terms of dogs...if you cross two purebred dogs, you get what is basically an F1 hybrid, with characterstics of both parents..If those hybrids are bred to each other, with occasional outcrosses to the purebred parent breeds, for many generations, you establish a new "breed" (the intergrade) that produce puppies that all look alike...If someone makes the original cross between the two purebred parent breeds, that offspring may LOOK just like the new breed, but in fact, is not...If you breed the hybrids, you will get a wide range of puppies, some looking like one parent, some like the other, and some like the hybrids...So it makes sense that for breeding purposes at least, you'd prefer the genetically stable intergrades, which would always give you the look you wanted...

SR

Dwight Good....so you could take it up with him. But personally I think it is a beautiful animal.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron