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I recently came into the possession of a Nevada Horned Lizard or Horny Toad as we called them as kids. I found the site mentioned below last night on my own and read through it. It's really good and gives some good info. Right now, I have plenty of ants at the house to keep the little guy busy. I just scoop them off the cabinet and put them in his aquarium.

My question is if I order ants from antsalive or uncle milton, how do I keep them? Do I go ahead and buy a farm and keep them in the farm?

I think I found what I was looking for. It was mentioned in a message below to refrigerate the ants. Now, I tried lifewest.com but nothing would come up. Has anyone used antsalive.com?

first, lets make a positive ID on what you have. there is no "Nevada Horned Lizard". that may just be a local terminology. if you're in southern Nevada you more than likely have a P. Platyrhinos ( Desert Horned Lizard ), if it is indeed a horned lizard. can you post a picture of it to make a positive ID? you can go to phrynosoma.com to help with identification.

second, don't use just any ant you find crawling on a counter.
they preferably need to be of the Family: Formicidae,
Subfamily: Myrmicinae, Genus: Pogonomyrmex ( or what is commonly known as a the big Harvester ant ). they abound in Nevada. also any ants found near your home may have been exposed to pesticides or other toxic substances which could prove lethal to the lizard. not recommended that these ants
be gathered near a residential, industrial, or agricultural area if at all possible.

I have attempted to use Uncle Milton's...once when I also bought one of their large ant farms a couple years ago. I never got the ants or a reply from them, though they did cash my check. all the ants I have used have been gathered in the wild in Texas, Oklahoma or Arizona.

Mick

I'm in Texas too. I got the lizard from a guy who had it. It looks just like the picture of the Desert Horned Lizard. He said it came from Nevada which is why I threw that in. I live near the lake so there are a lot of insect around as well as several mounds outside. I'll check them tomorrow but I don't think there are any harvesters. When I was small, we lived in a sandy area with plenty of red ants so our yard was always full of horned lizards. My mother used to catch them, tag them, and then see if the same lizards stayed in our yard or if they strayed.

I tried calling antslive several times but there was never a answer which is why I was leary of ordering from them. Where else can I order ants, in case the ones around the yard won't work.

where abouts you at? have you kept any reptiles or horned lizards before? there is a lot to know about keeping these if you want it to survive and thrive. maybe I can help you out a little more in depth if you're close. I'm in Hunstville.
if you are anywhere west of IH45, like towards central Texas or north toward Dallas/Ft. Worth, Harvester ants shouldn't be too hard to find. you can also use the big black carpenter ants in a pinch. I have when I couldn't get any harvesters.
if you can post pics of the ants in your area, we can also ID those. feeding local insects to a horned lizard not native to the area can present problems. some species of ants offered that were not native to the area has resulted in deaths of the horned lizard from one paper I read.

Mick

Thanks for all the help. I'll take some pictures tomorrow.

you didn't say from where your at in Texas. It is possible that you may have a Texas HOrned Toad as well? If you don't know the difference and your friend was in Texas. Fireside is very helpful, and most of all we just want to make sure this guy is comfortable and your commitment to supply ants as part of the over all diet is in place, or with rare exception these lizards usually will go down for the count. There are a lot of people not using ants for thier horned lizards, but my experience just in California with Paicific horned Lizards (blainville) is that they become obese and unhealthy when fed other insects on a regular basis with no ants. This may not be the case in other horned lizard species, as I as a general rule make at least 70% of the diet in ants. If you have ants in the area, just make sure their in a rural area away from farmers fields as a lot of these areas are infested with pesticides. I use a big potatoe spoon and just dig a small divit in the ground in front of the hole and as the ants pour out and fill the divit, I pick them up and throuw them into my tupperware container with tiny drilled air holes on the top. After I get a whole bunch I put in a potatoe slice and put it in the refrigerator. I assume once in the refrigerator they are to cold to eat. But should they be left out then moisture and some food is avaiable. Then I just take a small spoon and scoop out 50 or so ants at a time in a small pile and they heat up and start getting active and the horned lizards eat them as they are somewhat still lethergic and it makes it easier for them to eat. I have found these can eat anywhare from 50 to 100 at a time. Large horned lizards even more. I occasionally feed them 1/4 crickets as well and if they will eat them baby king mealworms and wax worms. I do dust my crickets once or twice a week with vitamins. Fireside likes to keep a water bowl very low profile for his horned lizards, I also use an eyedropper or spray the plants in the cage to get them to drink and sty well hydrated. Thought I'd throw in my two cents, Fireside is very knowlegable and will help you through. Do post a picture so we all know what we are dealing with as a Texas HOrned lizard has a different type of husbandry and also is a protected specie and shoulsd not be kept without a permit from Texas fish & Game..Cheers!!
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Here's a picture of the little guy. I tried taking pictures of the 4 or 5 mounds in the yard but it's hard to catch them while they're scurrying around. They ara about an 8th of an inch with a red front and black back. There's plenty out there and I have plenty of tuppereware and potatoes. You'll see in the picture that there's shredded bark in the aquarium. I already had it so I put it in there until I could get some sand. He really likes burrowing down in it so I'm not sure I should take it out. The little guy seems content. Likes to be rubbed behind the horns. My husband named him Dog. Oh, I live in Denton by Lake Lewisville (about a block away in a rural area but there are no commerical farms here and not very people with gardens in their back yards).

Ok, I know Denton...used to pass thru there 2 or 3 times a week on round trips to Witchita Falls. that area does have a lot of ag. activity in general. do not discount ranches & live stock areas either. I said be cautious around "agricultural areas", not just farms. one need not have a commercial farm or garden in their yard to pose a chemical agent threat to your lizard and it's food supply. just make sure you use ants from an area which are unlikely to have been exposed to pesticides or other chemicals ( like making sure your neigbor isn't using fireant killer nearby or something ).

you should have plenty of harvester ants around. I found them all the time up that way. they are the big ones that vary from red, to red & black coloration, and sting like an SOB so be careful!~do a web search for "harvester ant" or "Pogonomyrmex" to find some pictures to ID with.

but, it shouldn't be a problem confusing them with any other ant in Texas. they are the biggest of the red ( or red & black ) ants you are likely to find. they make their colonies usually in open pasture like grounds. they also clear all grass and other vegetation from around the main entrance, so there is a bare circular area several feet in diameter. you will also see the entrance to the colony ( mound ) circled by
tiny rocks.

take that shredded bark out of there now. that is not appropriate substrate for a desert dwelling lizard. it may contain microbes or other parasites ( common to those types of substrates ) that this lizard has no immunity to. instead get some play sand from Home Depot. it runs about $3.00 for a 50 lb. bag. that is enough to fill the bottom of a 40 gallon aquarium a couple inches. I usually use two bags to provide plenty of burrowing depth. and disinfect, rinse thoroughly,
and dry comletely, the aquarium before replacing that substrate.

the picture is too blurry. can you provide a couple more, including one from the side profile, and one of the complete underside? he looks like a Platyrhinos so far, but they are very similar to Coronatum.

not to rain on your parade or anything, but it's unlikely that any display you see from him while rubbing him behind the horns is because he's enjoying it. this is most definitely a defensive posture where he's trying to show you his horns, orienting them upwards or pulling them downwards close to his neck as to best defend himself against becoming somebody's food. I've seen it many times and I know it looks cute, but it's important to really understand the nature of the animal to care for it properly, instead of giving to it the emotional attributes we would like it to have.

but hey, I guess he >could< be enjoying it to a degree...after he's gotten very comfortable with you. you may also witness when you scratch the fringe scales on his sides, that he may dip that side down and move around....like a dog might do when enjoying a good sratching. but again more than likely not the case. this is another defensive posture against being scooped up into the mouth of a predator.

my previous horned lizard, after I had him a while, would kick his back leg on the opposite side when I scratched his sides. I don't know whether that meant he was enjoying it, but I can't find a good explaination for it as a defense either!
and I'm not saying it can't happen. I know that turtles and tortoises like a good rapid shell rub with the knuckles. but they are a little more intelligent too. if you've ever been followed around the yard by a Sulcata Tortoise...right along with the dog...you know what I'm talking about. just keep in mind you will see many displays that you cannot automatically attribute to the behavior you might expect from a domesticated and captive bred pet.

the fact is; if this guy came from the wild and has just changed hands recently, as I'm sure he did, he's most certainly not likin' a single thing you're doin' to him, with respect to being close or touching him. when you pet a domesticated cat, and it closes it's eyes, it means it is comfortable with you. with a wild caught horned lizard...it means something else entirely.

about catching the ants...I'm not sayin' Reptoman don't have a good idea there...but I didn't tell him how I do it. I use a one handed wire sifter/strainer from the Dollar General. scoop up ants & dirt together...sift, sift, sift...dump ants into old Country Crock butter container. works great except for with hard or very clumpy dirt. Cable has a method he showed me that just had me smakin' my head with astonishment...it was so simple. bury a medicine bottle to the rim near the colony ( works best along the pheromone "trail", if they are using one ), the ants fall right in by the hundreds! he's got video of it in action on the link he provided in the message below. scroll down to the bottom and click "c's misc video" to get to it.

you can give a few crickets here and there...I recommend pet store bought only!!! but use the smallest ones you can get...very important. also, even more important, you need to get this guy a nice UVB lamp...and shell out for the good one...not negotiable unless you want to build a nice big outdoor fenced in enclosure. I recommend at a minimum a florescent 8.0 or 10.0 ( UVB 8% or 10% ) kept at a distance no farther than 12", or, a murcury vapor spot or flood lamp, 100-160 watts, kept no farther than 2ft. ( like a Reptisun or Tex-Rex active UV )
make sure if you use a mercury vapor, and you're going to be around it all the time, you shield it somehow so it's not glaring in your eyes.

lastly, read every thing you can get your hands on, including phrynosoma.com and the messages on this forum...even if the title doesn't look like something your interested in. there is much to be aware of with respect to keeping horned lizards alive and healthy, especially if you don't have previous experience with reptiles. I really recommend that nobody who hasn't kept at least a gecko or anole keep one. I don't think they are for beginners personally. so, you have plenty of homework to do.

thanks for all the props there Lou...ya ain't bad yerself padnah!

Mick

Looks like a male Platyrhinos to me.
Those little red and black ants might not be bad for him, but they sound too small to do much good. The harvesters are 3/8ths inch long or more and quite robust. A platyrhinos will eat close to 100 or so of these large ones, so he'd probably require over 1000 of those little guys a day.
Here's the link for ordering ants if you can't find any big ones near you. http://www.antsalive.com/hornedlizard.htm
I'll take a look at my range maps and see if I can find what species might be close to you.
Here's a link for ants of AZ, some of which may be in your area as well. Good for helping identification.
http://www.tightloop.com/ants/

If you order ants, you can keep them in a butter dish in the refrigerator. Make sure they are hydrated before you put them in. An apple or small piece of watermellon is a good way, which also supplies some nutrients.
Good luck with your new HL!
Cheers
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www.phrynosoma.com

My HL doesn't seem to mind them. He ate about 50 of them today. Came fed ex in a decent amount of time. I'm not usre if the price is good, I'm new to ants myself, but it didn't seem bad.

Thanks for all the advice. I got this little guy because someone was selling him and my huband thought it best for me to bring him home. We have a tendency to rescue things.

I never thought about a strainer. I have an unused one here in the kitchen as well as an empty butter container. I'll look around some more. The beds I've found so far are the smaller ants but they do bite hard. Luckily, ant bites don't bother me. I'm allergic to dust which makes Texas a hard place to be.

Depending on how the ant gathering goes, I may order from antsalive. I was going to order the 1000 count too. I bookmarked them on Friday so I could order tomorrow if I needed to.

If you want to send me your name/address I'll volunteer 500 ants to you for shipping costs to get you started.
I took a look in my ant book. It looks like you should have some luck with Pogonomyrmex barbatus. They seem extant throughout Texas.
http://www.tightloop.com/ants/pogbar2.htm

These are pretty robust ants but your HL should be big enough to manage them. You will likely have to add crickets and meal worms to the diet. A note on mealworms; don't feed more than 4 or 5 a day and space them out, a couple at a time. Feed less meal worms and more crickets (or small grasshoppers if possible).
If you have any troubles don't hesitate to emal

cable_hogue@phrynosoma.com
Good luck!
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www.phrynosoma.com

You guys have been really great! Thanks again.

Someone commented about how horned lizards look like dinosaurs and I told them that was because they've been around about that long. I told them that the moive people used horned lizards in some of the old monster movies. They couldn't believe it at first until they looked at some of those old movies again.

it sounds like you are not native to Texas? these little ants which "bite hard" you speak of...these are fireants, and should absolutely not be given. they are far too aggressive and do not have the same nutritional content as the harvester ants that these lizards normally eat.

please tell me you understood my message about the substrate and UVB lighting? very important.

Mick

Nope, they aren't fire ants. Believe I know fire ants. I had on a pair of basket weave flips flops and they bit me between the basket weaves. I had whelps for days which meant those were the only shoes I could wear.

ok then you got me wondering about what these smaller ants that bite hard are? do they hava a sting or just a bite?

I guess it's a sting. They latch onto the skin and hang on. I never have any whelps though like I do with fire ants. Fire ants leave knots that last for several days.

carpenter ants, the black ones about the size of a harvester ant, are known for doing this. no sting just a bite. if they are smaller though, I don't know...could be anything

Mick

i haven't kept a horned lizard for quite a while, but i do have a leopard gecko and a gopher snake, and i know heat rocks are not good for those animals as they can burn them. i didn't see anyhting mentioned in the post about the substrate, so i thought i'd mention it, and someone that knows more than me can offer better advice.

www.spcbtx.org/consumer/harvester.pdf

That's a really good article.
Thanks.

www.life.uiuc.edu/suarez/Suarez&Case2002EcolApp.pdf