Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a lot of experience with tree frogs (red eyes, green, white) but no experience with dart frogs.

I have a few questions:

The first I am ashamed to ask, but might as well. Where do poison dart frogs get there name from? I mean, obviously humans can handle them. Are they just poisonous to eat and if so how much so?

For tree frogs, people recommend atlest 30 gallons per frog. I've heard on this forum 5 per frog. That is a huge difference - why is that?

Now my biggest question. I woud like to set up a 35 or 60 gallon hex tank, which are quite tall. Would this be a waste for dart frogs because they will only stay on the ground? Will they scale the glass or climb up high in the vivarium?

Any other information would be great; I've ready 2 pages already of the forum but am having trouble figuring out the differences between dart frogs and tree frogs.
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1.0 Baby Sunburst Veiled Chameleon -- Dexter

First of all, welcome to the forum.

Poison darts got their name from 2 species of Phyllobates, P. aurotaneus and P. terribilis that were used by the natives to poison their blow gun darts (not arrows) to bring down prey. They wiped them against the frogs' skin, usually stressing the frog to do this. While all dart frogs have skin toxins, these are gradually lost in captivity and in captive bred frogs. There are various reasons for this, not always clear, but a change of habitat and diet is clearly indicated. Their jewel like coloration is a warning to predators: "Watch out! I'm poisonous." This also makes many of them very confident in captivity, so (with exceptions, of course) they are generally very bold frogs that come out to be seen.

We use a generalization of 5 gallons per frog for convenience, but it often depends upon the species of frog. 35 to 60 gallons would not be a waste of space, because even the terrestrial frogs use all levels of a tank. The thumbnails, which are supposedly more arboreal, will also hop around on the ground. I've repeated this so many times it is redundant, but when you think about it, a huge forest canopy and the ground area are not duplicated in a tank, however high it may be. In the forest, both arboreal and terrestrial frogs will utilize the entire height and more than we can provide in a vivarium at a any particular level. So either way, these captive frogs are using only a small fraction of the ups and downs they would ordinarily use in the wild. I have none that can't be found at one time or another at all levels of any of my tanks. The thumbnails will climb glass, and the younger of the heavier terrestrial frogs will also do this occasionally. The terrestrial leucomelas, galactonotus, P. terribilis, D. auratus, may sit in the upper regions behind or in bromeliads, as well as hunt and splash in the waterways at the ground level.

I have a personal opinion that bigger is better, even with the tiny thumbnails. A couple of 33 gallon hexagonals each contain only a pair of thumbnails--pumilio and imitator. Four tiny D. reticulatus are in a 30 gallon, and are all over the place, top to bottom, and even diving in the waterway under the rocks. Most are active, diurnal frogs, and with some exceptions, you will see them all over the place.

They are actually nothing like tree frogs.

I'm generalizing a lot, because different species and even individuals vary. The thumbnails (tiny arboreals frogs) are more athletic, but all are fun to watch.

One thing is for sure: You won't waste space by keeping them.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Yeah, that tank is worthless. You better just give it away to someone. I know someone who might be interested in the tank .

Welcome to the hobby!
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Josh Willard
www.joshsfrogs.com

Thank you so much! You really answered a lot of my questions.

So where to start? I really am looking to build a 35 gal hexagon terrarium with all live plants, moss everywhere, coco panels with plants grown all over them, and then frogs!

I need to know what frogs I should start looking for...

Honestly, what I want is just tons of different colors. Bright, beautiful colors. I don't really care if they are the same species, but I do want differnet colors. Probably atleast 4-6 frogs. I wouldn't mind mixing red eye tree frogs, maybe a single small green tree frog or a single baby australian white tree frog; but probably I would only mix the red eyes. Is this not recommended?

So what would you all recommend I start looking at if I want 4-6 Poison dart frogs, with many of them having different colors?

Thanks for everything guys! Again, I'm planning a 35 gal hex with 6" pool, waterfall, all live plants and coco panels with live plants grown into it. Long way away but I want to start planning what frogs will eventually go in there!

Thanks!
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1.0 Baby Sunburst Veiled Chameleon -- Dexter

The downside of the enthusiasm, is the different colored dart frogs don't mix, at least until your have years of experience and a tank the size of Texas. Some people may argue about this, but for advising a beginner, they are wrong. You will not be able to mix these jewels up in a colorful display. You need to start out and keep one chosen specie, whatever it is. Learn about it, enjoy it. Get the feel of keeping it. Darts are territorial, and a mixture of "colors" would only create death to all. I got in trouble by not going further with my last post to explain that while most darts can use all levels, the different species don't always get along in the same tank, for the same reason. The territory is too confined. Some people do indeed mix, but those that do are experts or perhaps have a lot of frogs in the background they can replace the dead ones in their public display tanks with.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

So what would be some species you would recommend where you can keep 4-6 frogs of the same species together?? I've read a lot about keeping them in pairs or the sexable pairs, but I'm not interested in breeding and would really like 4-6 frogs in the tank.

Could I have 2 or 3 red eyes in the tank also with the PDF? They are nocturnal, hunt and roam at night and stay towards the top of the tank and like to hide so I woudl think they would be ok with the PDF.

Thanks for all the help!
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1.0 Baby Sunburst Veiled Chameleon -- Dexter

What ever you do: NEVER EVER mix tree frogs and dart frogs. Tree frogs will eat your darts. Tree frogs will eat any thing they can fit in there mouths. And it just so happens adult dart frogs fit into adult redeyes mouths. Mixing darts with tree frogs will only lead to your heart being broken
As for darts that do good in groups some suggestions are: D.galactonotus, D.leucomelas, D.auratus, P.terribilis, P.vittatus and, P.aurotania. There are others that all so do well in groups, but are harder to keep. The ones I listed are fairly easy to keep.
Also it might be a good ideal for your frist dart frog tank to do something smaller. Like 15 to 20 gallon. This allows you to learn all of the ins and outs of vivariums; like frogs needs, plant needs, enviromental factors, ect; with having as much money vested in your vivarium. After all you can study all you want but some things can olny be learned by frist hand experiance.
Anyhow welcome to the addiction...uh I mean hobby.
Happy Frogging.
-Scott

All of the previously recommended frogs would be great. But something to keep in mind is how bold you want the frogs to be - or do you want to be able to see the frogs everytime you go to the tank. For your first frogs, I would get a bold frog, as they provide more instant "gratification". My personal favorite would be D. leucomelas - they are pretty reasonably priced, do well in groups and the males have really cool calls. Another possibility would be P. terribilis. The mint phase is also very affordable, and while I don't own any, they are supposed to be very bold. Any of the D. tinctorius morphs would also be great - but you wouldn't want a large group, as they do best in pairs. As for some of the others mentioned, galactonotus are very nice looking, but are a bit more expensive. P. vittatus are awesome little frogs, but I NEVER see mine out in the open - they are always hiding. D. auratus morphs are also a good choice, but some are more shy then others. Do your research, be prepared, and good luck with your frogs.
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Frogs - D. leucomelas, D. tinctorius, D. azureus, D. auratus, P. vittatus
Chams - Werner's, Panthers, Veiled
Geckos - Cresteds, Gargoyles
Rough Scaled Sand Boa
English Bulldog, Maltese (my wife's)

The bumblebees are cool..

Are all PDFs no bigger than an inch and a half?

Is there anyway to have different colored PDFs together (of the same species) or am I basically stuck with the decision to pick only one color and species?

Would a 20 gal long work well?
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1.0 Baby Sunburst Veiled Chameleon -- Dexter

Some really big azureus and tinctorius can surpass the 1.5" mark, and P. terribilis can easily reach 2". A 20L may be sufficient depending on the species, but when you can, the higher the better. P. terribilis tend to use more of the ground space so a 20L could work, but leucs like to climb, so I would definitely recommend a 20H for them (even bigger if more than 3-4 frogs). I do have a 20L that is set up for P. bicolor, but they are another frog that uses the ground space. So it is possible, but in general - higher is better. For more dart specific info check out dendroboard.com.
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Frogs - D. leucomelas, D. tinctorius, D. azureus, D. auratus, P. vittatus
Chams - Werner's, Panthers, Veiled
Geckos - Cresteds, Gargoyles
Rough Scaled Sand Boa
English Bulldog, Maltese (my wife's)

As for getting different color frogs in the same tank, it's not a good idea, and not really possible. Keeping one species, and more specifically 1 morph per tank is the best idea, and only the most experienced hobbyists attempt it. If you really want different colors in a single tank, you can take a large tank (such as 55g) and place plexiglass dividers, separating the tank into multiple smaller enclosures, allowing multiple species in a "single" tank.
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Frogs - D. leucomelas, D. tinctorius, D. azureus, D. auratus, P. vittatus
Chams - Werner's, Panthers, Veiled
Geckos - Cresteds, Gargoyles
Rough Scaled Sand Boa
English Bulldog, Maltese (my wife's)

I would advise about grouping even single species tanks. I have a 55 gallon tank with only six Leucomelas. I have been keeping these frogs together for over 2 years now. I original three I had are also in this tank and have now been together for over 6 years. One of the males out of the original group is harassed sometimes at feeding time along with one of the offspring I kept when I bred. I like the large tank for plants. I don't have any overgrowth problems you might have with a 20 long, especially if you create a false bottom, as I always do. 20 longs just aren't enough. I had one setup with the three original Leucs and I was constantly grooming the plants to prevent them from taking over the tank. I am going to rebuild my 55 gallon tank in a month and I think I will only put the dominant 4 in it and build a seperate tank for the other 2. You may also run into similar problems with your 35 hex and will have to watch out for agression problems. If you notice one frog being harassed, be prepared to create a seperate, new tank for him and buy a mate for it. They don't do well singly. Always budget for problems such as new tanks, emergency fruit fly cultures, and frog partners. I always spend more than I plan for when building a new tank, but I always make sure there are some emergency funds if needed. Also I would highly advise against mixing Genus, you are going to run into a whole new set of problems with that mix such as parasites and frog disappearances.

I have 6 in an 80 gallon, and that's not too big for them at all. I too have noticed just a bit of intimidation going on--sort of vague wrestling, but so far, nothing that would warrant separating them. I think it is happening between two females, but I haven't sexed these frogs positively yet.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus