Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I might be acquiring a group of 7 prehensile tailed skinks through an adoption soon, and I think I may need to supply some housing. We're taling something like 8'wide x 2'deep x 7' tall.

I'd like it to be divisable in the midle so it breaks into to 4' wide pieces for eisier transport on the rare ocasion I may need to move it. I think I will make it in two haves, and just butt them together and hold them there with screwplates or a 2/4 frame. Which would work better do you think?

I plan on using shower panaeling to line the inside. This stuff is really tough and scratch resisten right? I wanted to know how to work with it: cut it, glue it on, seal the seems, anthing else? Also, does L0WE$ or H0me Dep0 have a variety that is non-texured... I have only seen it with the "crinkle" texture that would make it a [bleep] to clean.

Finally, how should I do the floor if it is going to have to be seperatable later? I did linolium in the last one, and liked it, but it need to have a center seam... can I do the same kind of seam as for the shower panel (which I'm assuming is water tight)?

Thanks all,
Jared
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With great power, comes great responsibility.
-Ben Parker

I'd like it to be divisable in the midle so it breaks into to 4' wide pieces for eisier transport on the rare ocasion I may need to move it. I think I will make it in two haves, and just butt them together and hold them there with screwplates or a 2/4 frame. Which would work better do you think?

I would make it dividable from top to bottom, not side to side. For a species that needs occasional misting it would be nice to have the bottom one piece.

As far as how to make a break down cage, that really depends on what you are going for. Light-weight, a nice looking cage, or inexpensive.

I would at least consider using the PVC couplings and pipe.

I plan on using shower panaeling to line the inside. This stuff is really tough and scratch resisten right?

There are a lot of products sold as showerboard. I have not had the best of luck with the basic showerboard that is nothing more than melamine fused onto 1/8" hardboard. But I have also heard that it's much improved.

I wanted to know how to work with it: cut it, glue it on, seal the seems, anthing else? Also, does L0WE$ or H0me Dep0 have a variety that is non-texured... I have only seen it with the "crinkle" texture that would make it a [bleep] to clean.

It depends on which product you get. The textured variety is fiberglass reinforced panel, aka FRP. It is the toughest of the showerboard type products and is not difficult to clean.

Finally, how should I do the floor if it is going to have to be seperatable later? I did linolium in the last one, and liked it, but it need to have a center seam... can I do the same kind of seam as for the shower panel (which I'm assuming is water tight)?

That seam is not water tight, especially on a horizontal surface where water can build up. Again, I'd make the floor one piece and make it dividable top to bottom or simply make six panels that bolt together somehow.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

OK, so I've decided to just do two 4'x2'x7' cages rather than one 8'x2'x7' since I found out I will be getting two families, made up of 3 and 4 animals respectively. So that solves my first problem.

I am going to be using 1/2" birch plywood with an external frame of 2x2(external to ease sealing it on the inside)? ... sound good? The frame will be hidden by the sides overlapping the back wall to leave a space behind the cage for plumbing and wires even when the cage is butted flush up to a house wall. The floor will also be set up into the walls so the cage will sit more stable on my carpet floor. Sorry I'm lacking some of the vocabulary to describe this, I hope it makes sense. Basically, I'm designing it a lot like my gecko vivarium, but with more actual enclosure space instead of cabinet space.

Secondly, I was looking at the thick rubbery/plastic stuff called "Poly Shower Liner". It has pre-made corner seems which I was going to seal with silicone. Are there better options for low cost high durability sealant options in a large cage? PTS have very sharp claws, and they will sit and scratch at the walls in vain attempts to climb them until they get tired, so it needs to hold up to not only constantly high humidity, but also abrasion.

Also, I'd like to incorporate a source of bottom heat in conjunction with the CHE I'll have at the top to keep the whole cage pretty warm. these guys really like a steady and evenly distibuted 85 deg temp, with a few warmer spots up to 90-95 deg to bask in. Do Kane radiate heat pretty well from them, or does it stay very localized to the matt.. I'm thinking about the 72 watt 18"x28" model? Other options?

Thanks again,
Jared

P.S. - The Sweetwater epoxy from AqaticEcos I used in the gecko vivarium is still holding up great by the way.
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With great power, comes great responsibility.
-Ben Parker

OK, so I've decided to just do two 4'x2'x7' cages rather than one 8'x2'x7' since I found out I will be getting two families, made up of 3 and 4 animals respectively. So that solves my first problem.

My only comment here is to consider limiting the cage to 6' tall. That will make it easier to get in and out of doors and will also waste a lot less material. If you cross cut a 2'x4' piece off a sheet of plywood you'll have your 6' height leftover.

But if your gecko cage is already the same height this may be a non-issue for you.

I am going to be using 1/2" birch plywood with an external frame of 2x2(external to ease sealing it on the inside)? ... sound good?

You really don't need the frame.

If you really want the frame you might just go ahead and build your cage from hollow core door blanks. They have the frame already built in and will be cheaper and lighter than what you are proposing.

Secondly, I was looking at the thick rubbery/plastic stuff called "Poly Shower Liner".

My biggest concern with this is scratch resistance. How much does it cost per sq. foot?

Also, I'd like to incorporate a source of bottom heat in conjunction with the CHE I'll have at the top to keep the whole cage pretty warm. these guys really like a steady and evenly distibuted 85 deg temp, with a few warmer spots up to 90-95 deg to bask in. Do Kane radiate heat pretty well from them, or does it stay very localized to the mat?

A Kane heat pad won't do much to distribute the heat into the air. To do so you need to heat a secondary thermal mass source. You could cover the Kane with a bunch of large rocks, large water basins, etc. That will help distribute the heat into the air.

And by all means incorporate some sort of reflective insulation into the subfloor of the cage and use an appropriate air space. That will help more than anything.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Good Idea on the 6' height... easier to move and less material (I can use the cut pieces of the sides/back to make the bottom and front.

Good point on the scratch resistance of the poly liner... I just said the PTS scratch a lot, but that hadn't even occurred to me. Scratches in the Poly material might not affect it's water sealing abilities, but they would make great places for bacteria to grow/get caught. So what is a good sealing option for this cage? I'd like to stay away from melamine.. to heavy and I hated working with it last time. I like plywood's athstetics, but need high water and scratch resistance on the inside. Ideas?

Could you clarify the insulation on the subfloor and air space topics?

Jared
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With great power, comes great responsibility.
-Ben Parker

I like plywood's athstetics, but need high water and scratch resistance on the inside. Ideas?

Thinking back to your Uroplatus terrarium, I find it hard to imagine you'd like a birch exterior and showboard interior of any kind.

My preference of cage interiors fall into one of two categories. Those that are basically permanent and those that are easily replaced or repaired.

For a permanent interior suitable for Corucia zebrata, there are FRP board and epoxy resins. I don't like the looks of FRP but maybe it's acceptable to you. You're familiar with epoxy and I understand it is very scratch resistant. I have seen it used in large monitor cages and it has held up well.

Regarding replacable interiors, I can't really think of any that would be suitable for Corucia. I suppose you could hang cheaper showerboard in a way that it could be taken down and replaced.

I'm currently researching catalyzed lacquers and 3 part polyurethane finishes. They are fairly complex products that can only be sprayed on but I have recently learned that specialty paint stores will mix up individual pressurized cannisters for small projects. There are two major advantages to these types of products.

First, they are more scratch and water resistant than oil-based polyurethane. As you probably know oil-based poly is close but just not quite good enough for certain reptile enclosures, especially if you're not experienced with laying on several thin layers. It can and does work fine, but if it does break down repairs are not easy and take a very long time.

And that brings up the other major advantage of catalyzed lacquers and 3-part polys. They are also much, much easier and quicker to repair than polyurethane. If parts of the cage did get beat up it would be very easy to remove the animals, spray on another coat or two, and have the animals back into the cage with in a few days. Not the case with poly or most 2-part epoxies.

A third advantage is that if you have access to decent spray equipment these products are very inexpensive. With the individual spray canisters the cost does go up.

I hope to stop by one of these shops this week. What I'm hoping for is something between polyurethane and epoxy in terms of cost but much easier to work with than both. I'm particuarly interested in quick cure times. I will let you know what I find out. Feel free to e-mail me about this.

Could you clarify the insulation on the subfloor and air space topics?

You need to include a foil faced insulation underneath the cage. This will block the radiant heat loss through the bottom of the cage. When this insulation is installed you need at least a 1/2" air space between the underside of the floor and the foil face. 1" is preferable. If you don't include this space the heat will simply move through the insulation via conduction. With the air space it converts back into radiant energy and the foil will reflect it.

Don't make the mistake that many do and just set their cage directly on the top of the insulation. This greatly reduced its effectiveness.

You can either use the foil-faced poly-iso insulation board or a strip of Reflectix.

Let me know if you need more information.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Thinking back to your Uroplatus terrarium, I find it hard to imagine you'd like a birch exterior and showboard interior of any kind.

What I meant by this is that I don't think you'd be pleased with the appearance of a showerboard interior. I see as somebody who likes a much more attractive finished product.

Birch plywood is certainly a great step towards an attractive product. The showerboard, not so much.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Your right, I am pretty picky about the aesthetics of my cages, but the care of the animal always comes first, and this project is also constrained by cost. My wife is pregnant with our first child, due in October, and so fiscal responsibility is important now more than ever.So for the interior sealant, I am more concerned wit longevity and price than aesthetics in this case.

So, just to clarify the insulation deal. you mean you have the mat in the cage, and then on the bottom of the cage you have a piece of foil lined insulation, but not directly on the cage bottom. Do you space the insulation with open sides, or an enclosed air space (make sense?)?

Thanks again for all the help you give me, and to the general populace of this forum... your a great asset to the herpetocultural community.

Jared Morris
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With great power, comes great responsibility.
-Ben Parker

I am more concerned wit longevity and price than aesthetics in this case.

Well I'm not sure that an epoxy wouldn't get you better coverage than FRP on a dollar for dollar basis. FRP varies a lot in price so you'll need to figure that out based on local prices.

The epoxy certainly would look nicer and you have a good idea about how much is needed for the cages you're building. I'm sure it won't be hard to figure out if FRP is cheaper.

But since longevity sounds important to you I really think those are your two choices.

Hey, congrats on the baby. If you use epoxy keep your pregnant wife away from the stuff until it cures.

So, just to clarify the insulation deal.

You need the cage raised off the floor some way so the insulation can sit underneath. There needs to be an air space between the very bottom of the cage and the face of the insulation.

The air space should be enclosed if at all possible.

Again, the insulation goes completely underneath the cage. The cage should not rest directly on top of the insulation and the very bottom of the cage should be spaced 1/2" to 1" away from the foil face.

I hope this makes sense.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

The Sweetwater epoxy is not quit scratch resistent enough for these lizards, and at $70 per gallon, and needing about 2 galons for three coats it is a bit steep. I know there are probably other products outthere that are more durable than this, but I'm guessing they're not going to come in under the $45-60 I'll pay for three sheets of FRP.

Oddly enough, I see the design of this cage toaly different than the gecko vivarium (at least on the interior)... and its in the names that you can tell how I see it: cage vs vivarium. These lizards produce masive amounts of waste, I keep them with no substrate, and I'm disinfecting constantly. So I think I'll go for some high quality FRP. I just need to determine how to best seal the seems. Do you think I'd be beter off with the pre-made chanels sealed with silicon, or without the chanels and sealing just with silicon? As for attatchment, I was thinking just liquid nails.

Jared
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With great power, comes great responsibility.
-Ben Parker

Do you think I'd be beter off with the pre-made chanels sealed with silicon, or without the chanels and sealing just with silicon?

I heard a good point about this over on the monitor forum where FRP is particuarly popular. The point was that without the channels you could better keep an eye on the joint and observe for water penetration, etc. With the channel you just sort of assume it's doing the job, but don't really know. I like the idea of keeping an eye on things.

As for attatchment, I was thinking just liquid nails.

I heard there is a type of contact cement that allows for a minute or so of slight adjustments and works very well with FRP. But if you already have liquid nails for something just go ahead an use it.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I wish you luck with the Corucia. I always found them to be very labor intensive as have freinds that have kept colonies. I used to think if I ever kept them again I needed to maybe devise some sort of self flushing toilet type water area to make maintenance easier and to help with humidity. If you could devise that and an easy walk-in type enclosure it seems you'd be most of the way there for longterm maintenance.

If anybody could help you devise something like that it is certainly Chris. Wish you the best, they are unique animals. It always broke my heart to see them in petshops.

Bob.

My experiances with them have also led me to see them as labor intensive, but that is part of what makes them so rewarding to keep. When you work so hard to care for an animal, you feel even more proud when you get a birth, or an adult gets to the peak of its health. So I don't mind doing all the manual labor. Thanks for the luck though, I'll need it get my wife on my side with this adoption! lol!

Jared
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With great power, comes great responsibility.
-Ben Parker