Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone have a book entitled "Kingsnakes Care & Breeding in Captivity" written by Ronald G. Markel? copyright 1995

If you look at pages 5 and 37 their are pics (photos by W. P. Mara) of an orangish looking snake that is subtitled as........
(pg.5) "SAN LUIS POTOSI KINGSNAKE, Lampropeltis mexicana. This is an unusual "golden phase" variant of the San Luis Potosi King. In normally colored specimens, the ground color i smore grayish, like that of the anterior portion of the head.........
(pg.37) "SAN LUIS POTOSI KINGSNAKE, Lampropeltis Mexicana. Young example of a rare golden variety with greatly reduced saddles."

The picture looks like a Thayeri to me. Is there such thing as a "golden phase" Mexmex? or was Thayeri grouped into Mexmex in 1995....I think not!

Has anyone else seen this or do they have the book?
John Lassiter

I have the book and have been wondering about that snake for awhile. It looks like a Thayeri, but the book also mentions Thayeri and talks about their variabilty. I hope someone out there can clarify this.

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Michelle

Well..........thayeri and greeri are still "grouped" with mexicana, being considered synonymous regional phases of mex mex, and/or intergrades influenced from past associations with alterna. As in they are all L. mexicana, no subspecies. Remember, alterna (and blairi for that matter) were included under mexicana, then elevated to specie status. And blairi and alterna were originally thought to be 2 different snakes. Now, I must say that there isn't total agreement between taxonomists for some of this, and the entire mexicana complex is still open to revision in some minds. When the "new" Mexican King is brought in to the mix, it's going to "wrench" it even more, trust me. The history of the descriptions of all these snakes have been through many interpretations and refinements. The subspecies of thayeri and greeri were sunk (eliminated) quite a while ago, but the same names have remained in the "hobby" for the recognition of which is which as they have been captive bred over the years. Would you believe that thayeri was the original name/description of the Ringed (Banded) Mexican Kingsnake (aka milksnake phase) not the blotched (leonis phase.) If you want to really have some fun, look up Coronella leonis and see what you find. Some crazy Germans tripin on Kings in Mexico in the late 1800's. Now, after all this, IMHO the pic you're referring to is a thayeri (as we know it), and a pretty cool one at that. And it technically can be referred to as a mexicana (variant) as well. But it shouldn't carry the San Luis Potosi common name unless it was found there. Maybe it's the great, great, great, etc, grandfather of that ugly yellow one you just got.....LOL. I hope I wrote this right, it's pretty darn late here. I'm sure a few others here can add to this (or subtract any misunderstandings) that I may have put in.

Eimon

Eimon,
Yes....Thayeri, Greeri and Mexmex are still considered as L. m. mexicana, but as Dan V. stated Greeri may be separated into their own species just as Ruthveni and Alterna have been already.
I am well aware of the "stories" behind Thayeri and Alterna...they are similar....
I remember when they were all called mexican kings and were grouped in L. m. mexicana. I think taxonomy studies are correct and alterna along with ruthveni are different and should be grouped separately. i just learned of the taxonomical difference between Greeri and "the others". Maybe they are all their own species since they are located in discrete mountain ranges separated by vast land. That brings me to this point: Shouldn't Getula be separated into species as well? I think not....All of them show the same characteristics (visually that is)...I see dark black/brown and white to yellow on each species except Nigritis.

I definitely think the picture in Markel's book IS a thayeri....many will agree, but why would one say that it is a "rare" golden phase San Luis Potosi phase kingsnake. Maybe he meant it was a L. m. thayeri found in SLP?????

I think Thayeri and Mexicana Mexicana are in fact closely related and should remain in the same subspecies of Mexicana.....Greeri, Ruthveni and Alterna are different taxonomically....

Oh yeah....I cannot wait to see that yellow leonis from David W. in person....I will be sure to share some pics....
There are NO misunderstandings here Eimon
John Lassiter

Hey John, I know you know the history of mexicana very well. I was just flapping more than need be because it was 4 am....lol. Getula? They have their own miserable forum......hehe. Actually I'm starting to really believe that you could eliminate most of those sub species. There is just a natural linear flow of looks from Cals to Deserts to Speckleds to Blacks to Easterns. And vice versa, with intergrades inbetween all of them. Also funny how a "banded" is on each end too. Not really sure about the Floridas yet. Even most of the nigrita in Mexico are not the jet black we see in captive breed stock, but rather look more like splendida with yellow and some pattern. I do kind of agree with the greeri idea. There seems to be reasonable evidence of something different going on with them. And as you said about regional isolation, maybe it just hasn't been enough time (evolutionarily speaking) for the others to be distinctive enough yet. I love overloading my aging brain cells! Now, just to be sure..........no misunderstandings? LOL.

Eimon

PS- you better start pairing up that trio as soon as they get there. There will be a lot of us waiting for the results. You Dog!!

Dude… you are like… the smartest person I know. Seriously though (and yes I am laughing), your herp knowledge is impressive as usual.

Also, every once in a while one of the old time breeders (the guys that started this mess) will slip up and admit they sometimes crossed mexicana localities (i.e. Thayeri x Mex Mex) and even mexicana x alterna because of a lack of animals to work with and they were all considered the same species, etc. Of course, NO ONE will admit this on the record. I think this has added some variability to the already variable Thayeri.

John I have 2 other books by R.G. Markel. But not the one you are refering to. I have seen that pic and remember thinking the same thing. That sure as heck looks like a thayeri to me.

On page 66 of Markel's book "Kingsnakes and Milk snakes" I think there is the same kind of question on one of those snakes he calls thayeri. This book is copyright 1990.
And If you have his book "Kingsnakes and Milksnakes a complete pet owner's manual" you notice that he has on page 47 listed alterna, thayeri, and ruthveni as mexicana complex kingsnakes, with no mention of mex mex or greeri at all. This book is also copyright 1995.

I've always been frustrated by the fact that in most if not all kingsnake books, every other kingsnake is well documented, but the whole mexicana group is a mishmash of thayer, greeri, mex mex, ruthvens, and sometimes alterna with the term "hobbiest" thrown in to give the group some legitimacy.

Just my 2 cents.

Yes I have that book. I would definitly say that is a thayeri. I have produced two or three like that. I used to call them no-red buckskin leonis phase. W. P. Mara has made some pretty debatable statements and stated them as if they are fact. The whole book follows the idea that greeri and thayeri are intergrades between alterna and mex mex which is nowhere near an accepted theory.
There are other photos with questionable captions in that book such as the abberrant greeri which is "showing alterna ancestry" as if an unknown generation captive bred snake that could even be a hybrid could tell us anything about taxonomy.
The most infamous photo in that book is of an obvious neonate bairdi that is labeled as a strange looking thayeri.
I would take anything in that book with a grain of salt.

W. P. Mara is the photographer. R. G. Markel is the books author. I don't think that Markel is being intentionally sloppy here. But the books are from the early 90's and there were alot of unknowns that I think were not addressed very well. The other problem is that there is not much written that helps to clear up some of these "problems".

Chris G

Oh, I was thinking of a book written by Mara. It has the exact same captions word for word. TFH uses alot of the same pics in different books so I would bet they are probably the same pics. Markel is very good and I've learned alot from his books but I stand by what I said about Mara. Lots of other people I know have said the same thing about the Mara book. I should clarify I know nothing about any scientific work Mara may have done but that book written for hobbyists was terrible. The only good thing about it was it had a pic of the preserved holotype thayeri and a reproduction of the drawing of the holotype leonis.

Hey Aaron, that's 2 good things. A record for a TFH book!....lol