Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I want to first say that my intention is not to discredit other's accomplishments or say that I have any clue as to what exactly a "pastel" is. I will however say that I think the whole pastel craze has gotten, well, crazy. I posted this originally over on Ralph's site (can we please get some more boa fans over there?! the damned bp lovers are in total control, scary stuff ) and thought it may spark some interesting debate over here.

"I think these are super dupers? Ruby Pastels? Yo' Mama pastels?! Who know's... everyone and their brother has pastels it seems. I'm not trying to start a war over "this is a pastel and this isn't" but I hate seeing 40 posts a day on the classifieds offering NORMAL boas as "Pastels". I realize if I don't like it, don't buy it... but it almost seems like ppl are trying to tag a flashy label on every boa... like the scummy bp guys on the bp classifieds with every spot and alien as a new morph or oddity.

Stef's post is what triggered this... and I mean no disrespect to you Stef, but that boa looks to me like any other above average colombian. It's indeed a GREAT looking animal... but to label it a "Carmel Pastel"? I don't profess to be some godly boa breeder, but I've had a fair number of litters over the past 4 years now and in EVERY one... there are normals that are as nice if not nicer then the boa that was posted.

I guess this really solves nothing, but it just bothers me that I see some breeders offering normal boas at $50-$100 and calling them as they are. While others offer the same animals as pastels and ask $250-$500. Again, if he can get it good for him... and round and round we go "

Like I said in the old post.. it solves nothing, but I'd love to hear some other people's views on the Pastel situation. Most people are in agreeance that a morph is not a morph until it is bred true. Now therin lies the problem with the pastel... if you breed your "Pastel" boa to a normal... and half or more of the offspring look above average and the other half is average... is that a "genetic" morph or just simple heredity at work? Does that now need to be a new line of pastel?

I posted these guys below last year when I first produced them... I still have no idea exactly what's going on as there are "normals", "pastels", and some kind of pastel anerys. I repeated the breeding again this year so hopefully I'll see if I can produce the same stuff. Maybe it's something, maybe it's nothing.... it's all fun though

Thanks,

Guy Scavone II
Living Art Herpetology

I just got back into Boas last July and it is really hard trying to separate the morphs and all the lines out there and I definitely know what you mean. After viewing quite a lot of ads, it's getting a little ridiculous. There are Boas that are the furthest from the description of "Pastel" being advertised as Pastels and it's getting kinda silly. I might have even called my Boas "Pastel" somewhere but when it comes down to it, you should really represent your animals correctly and for what they truly are, either nice normals or true Pastels.

I have a few "Pastel-ish" looking Boas, however if they ever produce anything that resembles a "Pastel" I will sell them as very nice looking BCI and nothing more, unless they are from a proven line.

BTW-Your Boas are sweet!! If you have anymore looking like that please let me know if you decide to sell any.

BT now THATS A nice looking animal.. I think most people would agree that if you wanted to call that a "pastel" you would have every right to that claim!

Thanks,

Guy Scavone II
Living Art Herpetology

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Hey Guy, what were Pastels called a few years back? I called them high pink boas. That's exactly what they are. There is no het for Pastel, I don't care what anybody says. A good looking "Pastel", is more likely to produce "Pastels".

I see "Pastel" looking boas all the time at shows. Just because they don't come from a so called "proven line".... it doesn't mean they are not "Pastel" boas, since a "Pastel" boa is just basically a high pink boa with pastel colors in it.

Another thing, "Pastel" boas are very hard to photograph and get their true colors to show. How do you know that the animals you see don't look better in person than yours do?

A "Pastel" is a high pink boa with pastel looking colors in it.....period!!!!!! I've produced them from normal looking parents. I just wasn't smart enough to name them a Pastel until now. LOL

I think I'm going to have to come over to Chub Rocks site. I can really take the gloves off there, and tell people what I really think of them with the proper words. LOL

One last thing. If a "proven line" means that those animals produce "Pastels", then I've proved that normal parents can produce them also. I would be more than happy to line up 10 animals and let you pick out the ones from the so called "proven line". I've got $1000 bucks that says nobody can do it in Daytona. I must see your money first though. LMAO

Let's see who puts their money where their mouth is. LOL

Sorry to correct you but a pastel is not a COLOR TRAIT. It is a washed out low black animal.. period. The added color is a bonus, nothing at all to do with Pastels.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

When you reduce black, you get that nasty side effect called "pink boa syndrome" in most pastels. The pastels that grab my attention are the ones who don't have any pink at all. Ignorance is bliss however, especially when someone wants to think they know it all. If they don't know they are wrong, then they aren't wrong.
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Davey Giltner

Yeah, those Pastel albinos really have no color in them do they? I guess they get the color from the fact that the normal "Pastels" have no color.

I will agree that the best looking "Pastels" are clean though.

When you reduce melanin the underlying red is going to show. High pink normals will give you the same effects in an amelanistic version. You do not need a pastel to make pink albinos.Melanin is absent in amelanistic snakes, so yeah the red is going to show more. Likewise, not every pastel is going to make those red "pastel albinos" because not all pastels are hypererythristic.
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Davey Giltner

How much color do you think this animal would add to an albino project? Then again, it's probably just a normal, since it doesn't match your definition of pastel. Not much pink to her.



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Davey Giltner

All Pastels are not created the same. I guess I should not have used the words "High pink" in describing them. Let's say clean pinkish pastel colored boas. LOL. Some have more pink than others. Anyway, I know one when I see one....proven line or not.

The pic posted is just a clean pastel looking boa. I'll give you $50 for it. LOL.

By the way, what makes you guys the "Pastel" experts? Just curious.

Remember, $1000 bucks in Daytona if you can pick out the "proven" lines.

"Step up, or step out"

What does it matter if you have pastels that people can't tell from proven lines? Pastel is a phenotype, and I could care less who produced it. If its nice, its nice. Pastels are basically light normals, and not all are sold for hundreds of dollars just because they are pastels, just as all normals are not wholesaled for $50.
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Davey Giltner

LOL!
I have been concentrating on Pastels, Ronne's specifically, for the last five years. I would dare to say I am pretty comfortable with what it is. I have gone through all the questions you are all asking and feel I pretty much understand what a pastel is or is not. So, am I smarter than the average bear? Or, the average cub? You silly ranger!
All I am trying to do here is re-define for people what has already been defined. All I am trying to do is help out. Do I think of myself as the boa expert? Nah, I learn something new just about everyday. Can I help others with questions? I'll try my best. And, if I'm incorrect. I will be the first to say so.
http://www.theboaforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=boapics1&action=display&num=1050880714
Take care,
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

Dave, just because YOU like the ones with less pink, doesn't mean they are a better "Pastels". I like the ones with more pink.

Your right though, your animal would not add much color to an albino. Another reason I don't like it as much.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

No beauty like the beauty of a pink "Pastel". LMAO

A certain level of reduced black defines what is and isnt a pastel. Nothing more.

Why are reduced black boas beneficial?

Because they allow for a clearer window of which animals have the most etherin or xanthin. You can then more effeciently selectively breed towards one, or both, of those colors.

There may be some boas that are highly reduced black with very little color. Does that mean they are not pastels? Of course not. The function of pastels is to reduce black to allow color to be seen and selectively breed towards it. Breed that highly reduced black pastel to an rather normal boa (normal amounts of melanin) that looks to have a large amount of underlying color and the pastel trait will "unlock" the underlying color from the normal... The melanin can then be further reduced with each generation as well as etherin/xanthin more effeciently increased... a pastel bloodline is developed.

Pastel Dreams - is a PASTEL BLOODLINE. Obviously color (red) is tied to it because thats what jeff bred for.

Pastel Phenotype - certain level of reduced black.

The significance of the label pastel is in its function.

I think the reason we are seeing so many more pastels on the market is because there is so much more selective breeding happening. Everyone now knows that if you want the best normals, you need to reduce black. There will inevitably be an increasing number of them. You can take the label "pastel" that is placed on so many boas now with a grain of salt. Well developed / special pastel bloodlines are another story.

"A certain level of reduced black defines what is and isnt a pastel. Nothing more."

True.

"Why are reduced black boas beneficial?"
Here is my own opinion about that. Again, my own.
I really think Ronne tended twords Pastel animals, in the beginning, because the looked better as adults and didn't muddy up. Plain and simple. (Personally, I hate speaking for others. So, again........This is just my thinking.) The color by-product begain serfacing........And, he liked it. I do know he loves color. So, I think that is the simplistic evolution of the pastel. Again..........My thoughts.

"There may be some boas that are highly reduced black with very little color. Does that mean they are not pastels? Of course not. The function of pastels is to reduce black to allow color to be seen and selectively breed towards it. Breed that highly reduced black pastel to an rather normal boa (normal amounts of melanin) that looks to have a large amount of underlying color and the pastel trait will "unlock" the underlying color from the normal... The melanin can then be further reduced with each generation as well as etherin/xanthin more effeciently increased... a pastel bloodline is developed."

More intelligently written than I could have done. Sounds like a winner to me. Does that mean that guy owes you 1000.00?

"Pastel Dreams - is a PASTEL BLOODLINE. Obviously color (red) is tied to it because thats what jeff bred for.

>>Pastel Phenotype - certain level of reduced black.

>>The significance of the label pastel is in its function.

>>I think the reason we are seeing so many more pastels on the market is because there is so much more selective breeding happening. Everyone now knows that if you want the best normals, you need to reduce black. There will inevitably be an increasing number of them. You can take the label "pastel" that is placed on so many boas now with a grain of salt. Well developed / special pastel bloodlines are another story."

Again, very well written. My only observation is that just because the "bar" for normals has risen should not discount the animal being a pastel. But, I think we are on the same page. Because, those animals would be in my buyer's beware catagory possibly.

John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

Again, color has absolutely nothing to do with the trait. The high color is an additional bonus that has been line bred into the animals. If Pastel was a generic term that was made up to cover normal high color animals then I would agree with you, but it is not. It is a term that was coined by a specific person and he thusly defined the trait.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

"Sorry to correct you but a pastel is not a COLOR TRAIT. It is a washed out low black animal.. period. The added color is a bonus, nothing at all to do with Pastels."

According to who? Who decided all of this?!

Thanks,

Guy Scavone II
Living Art Herpetology

Jeff Ronne who DESCRIBED the phenotype. Enough said. Pastelis aphenotype with a reduction in melanin, giveing rise to increased erythin and/or xanthin.

Jeff Ronne says so. I was wondering when this would come up. Anyone that knows anything about boas, knows he's the "expert". LOL

I agree that a "Pastel" is a reduction in the black of the animal. Well, when you reduce the black in a boa, it usually, but not always, turns a pinkish pastel color on it's sides.

If you look at the "expert", Ronnes "Pastels", this is how most of them look. That pink color is what gives his Pastel albinos their color.

I have decided since Jeff Ronne can name a boa, so can I. Guy, you have inspired me. I am naming a boa that I have, the Pastel Scmastel boa. Pictures available upon request. LMAO.

Lastly, I know a "Pastel" when I see one.

When is someone that calls himself an "expert" going to take the $1000 Daytona show challenge? I'm waiting. If you say you will, I will make sure you do, or I will call you a wuss... here..... there.... and everywhere.... for the rest of your life. LOL

I want to see the new Pastel Schmastel up in lights

This thread has gotten crazy, as I somehow knew it would. Everyone has their interpretation and opinion as to what a "pastel" is and that's the main problem. There is no kind of standard. I think a normal appearing boa that is from a "proven" line of "pastels" should be called as it is.. a normal. Just because people are inherently greedy shouldn't make for all normal boas from "pastel" litters to automatically be classified as "pastel".

I want to be involved in the Daytona challenge... sign me up!

Thanks,

Guy Scavone II
Living Art Herpetology

Too many people are coming up with what a Pastel is. It's actually pretty simple. A line bred animal that has an overall reduction in black. That's it. Anything else does not fit the founder's description of what a pastel is.
As an "expert" LOL! hopefully the more I write it........The more people will come to understand the definition. I have a vested interest because I love pastels. I own a ton of them! I want to own MORE!
Where I think the true confusion lies is in the "degree" of the Pastel nature an animal possess. There is a sliding scale in my opinion. Some are better than others.
This is where experience with the animal comes in. IMHO. This is what also makes it a BUYER'S BEWARE purchase. If I were new to "the game".........I would be looking at a lot of animals that would be considered great looking pastels. This is the direction you want to move twords when purchasing an animal. You need to look at the parents of the animals to see what they look like. (There are anomilies. But I'm not getting into that.)

I'll be honest. When I first got into pastels years ago. I almost bought an animal that really would be considered a "lower grade" pastel. Luckly, I went to Ronne and talked with him about the trait before the purchase. I ended up not buying the one and bought two of his Lucy bloodline pastels. It was the best pastel move I could have ever made. The female I bought from him is still just as beautiful as ever. The babies she produced far suprassed my expectations. This is to just illistrate a point. In the beginning..........I didn't know what a good pastel was. I needed to train my eye.
Ok, now I have to go paint the base trim in our house. Lucky me!
John

>>I want to see the new Pastel Schmastel up in lights
>>
>>This thread has gotten crazy, as I somehow knew it would. Everyone has their interpretation and opinion as to what a "pastel" is and that's the main problem. There is no kind of standard. I think a normal appearing boa that is from a "proven" line of "pastels" should be called as it is.. a normal. Just because people are inherently greedy shouldn't make for all normal boas from "pastel" litters to automatically be classified as "pastel".
>>
>>I want to be involved in the Daytona challenge... sign me up!
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Guy Scavone II
>>Living Art Herpetology
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

from sheed to sheed more color

But, it has nothing to do with color per the originator of the trait. But, they sure have that reduction of black. But, they are a cross aren't they? Surinam X BCI? I guess the reduction of black theory would apply...........But, I don't know.
They are beautiful none the less.
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

..Not to kick a dead horse..
however,it's a dominant trait and absolutly nice.
call it pastel,superpastels or hypo pastels.. they are at this time f1 generation!
they are not a cross between surinam and bci.
mohawk's have a adult size from a leopard or gee hypo and i think they are very good for future breeding projects.
for sure not the best pastels on the market but also far away from bad pastel's...
i think many pastel lines on the market are perfect for breeding to clear some spotts out or bring many color in some projects.
like the mohawks or not,i'm sure they have a good future on the boa market
but this is not a tread about mohawk's,i only post a pic to show some people that interested in pastel's the mohawk line,not more...

i'm sorry for my bad english

np.

I think you are doing a great job! Never a need to apologize for that.
Sorry, I though I read that they were crossed at one point. Too many threads...........Too many boas. LOL! Regardless, they are really nice looking. Just loaded with color!
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

You could name it sarcasm boa. If the shoe fits right?

Why wouldn't Ronne's name come up? He is the one who coined the name and his own bloodline. Seems kind of silly that this was your "secret plan"....To have Ronne's name come up on a Pastel discussion. Genius...........Pure Genius. Gee, this sarcasm thing is pretty fun! I should have tried this on a long time ago. LOL!

"I agree that a "Pastel" is a reduction in the black of the animal. Well, when you reduce the black in a boa, it usually, but not always, turns a pinkish pastel color on it's sides."

You are totally correct. When the black of the animal is washed away the colors will come out and play. But, again.....The color of the boa does not a pastel make. It is the "side effect" IMHO. A good one at that.

"If you look at the "expert", Ronnes "Pastels", this is how most of them look. That pink color is what gives his Pastel albinos their color."

True as well. Again, the color is the by-product. But, then again...........Ronne has made some Ivory boas. These are pastel anerys. No "color" involved. Just a washed out anery. So, this is the "flip side" to your point. I think Ronne is doing what any other person would do. He has worked hard and created a line that differentiates himself from others. Now he is plugging his line into other morphs. The pastel gene is being introduced into these morphs so the pastel name is attached to it.

"I have decided since Jeff Ronne can name a boa, so can I. Guy, you have inspired me. I am naming a boa that I have, the Pastel Scmastel boa. Pictures available upon request. LMAO."

Nothing like being disrespectful to someone who has been a founding member to our little boa community. It's really easy to name a boa. Go for it!

"When is someone that calls himself an "expert" going to take the $1000 Daytona show challenge? I'm waiting. If you say you will, I will make sure you do, or I will call you a wuss... here..... there.... and everywhere.... for the rest of your life. LOL"

Oh my gosh............The gauntlet has been thrown. What are we all to do???? Us pastel breeder MUST band together!!! He might.....Call us.....A....Wuss............. And, I'm such a tiny fella to being with. What am I to do?

Have fun with your "challenge".
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

You could be one of the judges?! I'm not sure how this whole challenge he's proposing will even work, but maybe we can have a spot set up with a few judges that will grade/rate/determine if it is a pastel or not. Maybe if enough people bring their animals enough people will become educated to know what is and is not a pastel?

I still think it's kind of a cool idea, but I don't think you're a wuus

Thanks,

Guy Scavone II
Living Art Herpetology

1)I will never go to Daytona. It would be like bringing a crack whore into a crack house. I would buy everthing! Regardless if I had the cage space or not! LOL! Or, even the money.......
I can see it now. I come home from Daytona with a Motley and a Jungle. Show my wife.......... (The dots are to represent my demise. LOL! ) Nah, I stay far away from that place. WAY TOO MUCH temptation. It would be fun to see everyone though. Put some faces to the names. Then there would be beer drinking with friends.............(The dots are to represent my demise. LOL! )

2)It might be fun. But, why not get it from the "horses mouth"? I understand Jeff is usually there. This guy could talk with him. He could even tell Jeff about his "new found line name". Nah, I'm a wall flower.
The only real tempting part would be to sit around friends and have some beer and shots and talk about boas..........
Take care big fella,
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

You head up a group that specializes in the identification of pastels. You, Jeff, and maybe two or three more "qualified" analysts. People could then post a picture of there potential "pastel" and you guys could determine if it was or wasn't?!

I really think this could be a great idea if applied correctly. At least this way if a person was contemplating a purchase they could post the pic here and people could sound off on it. If there was an avenue like this for people to turn to maybe they would ask before they made a purchase of a suspect "pastel". The people that buy these alleged "pastels" that are normals only help to fuel the original breeders ability to confuse/take advantage of the smaller guys because the new buyers think their new boas are pastels... and it's just more people saying "this is a PROVEN pastel... johnny said so"

Round and Round...

Oh and John... there is no demise in drinking with friends!

Thanks,

Guy Scavone II
Living Art Herpetology

there is no demise in drinking with friends!

I don't think it's that simple. Way too many underlying issues. Let me bring up some.

1)So, let's say I do this. I say an animal is a pastel for someone. Then they buy it. Later they breed it an almost all the animals look normal. Maybe only a couple of pastels. Who would they be pointing the finger at about that? I'll give you one guess.
2)What if the geneics are within the animal? Who am I to know that? I had a couple of people buy some of my babies just due to the bloodline they came from. They were nice pastels. But, on the "lower end" my pastel "scale". I am actually really interested to see what happens when he breeds the animal. Personally, I always pick my animals on look and not bloodline. So, I might have a lesson learned when he breds her. In other words..........I might really be kicking myself.
3)My biases would be included according to my likes and dislikes. Example, there is a post above here that has some animals that a guy bought for 85.00. I'm really not into the looks of the first one. I love the second one! Are they both pastels? The first looks to be. But, I would want to see more pictures of it. The second one............Yes. But, again, one's pic was taken outside one was taken inside. Does that influnce that animals look? I think so.
4)People's picture quality. Some people take good pics. Others not so well. Grading on that would be tough.
5)Lastly, and selfishly...........I don't have the time to commit for something like this. As much as I love boas.....I love my family time more. I have very little of it to begin with. So, I don't like to commit to things that I know I can not give 100% to. But, that is not to say that I will not help others when I can. I have actually done this "gauge my boa" during the last pastel thread that happened a while ago. It is generally something that leaves me feeling a bit uneasy. I guess mostly due to this. I know my choices will affect me. If I choose an animal........It will only affect me. If I make a bad decision on an animal.......It still only affects me. If I do this for others.........My "control freak" world starts flashing red lights! LOL! That's a big WARNING WILL ROBINSON!!! (Am I showing my age? ) Again, I will be here when I can. I do believe that if you are a part of this community you should help out when you can. I will do that happily. Now, really........I need to paint the trim. LOL!
Nice talking with you.
John

>>You head up a group that specializes in the identification of pastels. You, Jeff, and maybe two or three more "qualified" analysts. People could then post a picture of there potential "pastel" and you guys could determine if it was or wasn't?!
>>
>>I really think this could be a great idea if applied correctly. At least this way if a person was contemplating a purchase they could post the pic here and people could sound off on it. If there was an avenue like this for people to turn to maybe they would ask before they made a purchase of a suspect "pastel". The people that buy these alleged "pastels" that are normals only help to fuel the original breeders ability to confuse/take advantage of the smaller guys because the new buyers think their new boas are pastels... and it's just more people saying "this is a PROVEN pastel... johnny said so"
>>
>>Round and Round...
>>
>>Oh and John... there is no demise in drinking with friends!
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Guy Scavone II
>>Living Art Herpetology
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

Like I've said.......I feel I have a pretty good handle on the pastel trait.
Here's what I am wondering??????????

Will you really know you have a pastel until it's an adult? I have never claimed to have a crystal ball with this. Nor, will I ever. But, if the reduction of black will bring about a lighter adult..........What if the baby turns dark with age?

This is my question. And, something I want to try and answer with some more breedings. I have held back 5 babies from my litter to watch them grow and also see how they develop. (For breeding as well)

For example:
I have two babies from an EBV female X Ronne Lucy pastel litter. Both were pastel looking babies. Both have the pastel bloodline within them. Each baby was chosen for a different look. One baby had a "red" tint to it. The other was a very light pink baby. I invision the red girl to be a darker adult. I fully expect the lighter girl to be a light/burnt orange colored animal. Now, both started with a pastel look. The red one has darker side medallions. The lighter on is still lacking most of the black within them. Is the dark on still a pastel?
Here's a pic of them.

Red female

Pink female

What's the answer? I have no idea. Hopefully I will learn from my babies.
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

This girl is spilling with colors! with a clean white belly super clean spotless body then her tangerine orange tail . Also she has a different look to her IMO from the color change from a light buff tan to the tangerine orange tail which is also as orange on the bottom just in the tail section.

so am i stupid and this is a normal or am i right and the pastel male that bred my old super light laterial striped female didnt do the trick ? lol

The laterial striping ( mother showed the same striping as well did two other babies)

and a old overhead shot of her outside

I would get a pic of her now but shes full of chicken! lol
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Buisnesses come and go everyday, what keeps you here is how you treated the customer the day before....My Boa Can Kick Your Boas _ss!www.cheapcages.com

____

edited sig file 2/8/05

I want to be in on the challenge-I'm introducing MY new line of "pastels" and what better time than when the critics are out in force!! I don't really want to use the word pastel-or coral-so of course I'll be making up my own name, any suggestions welcome when I get the pics up!!

Tracy/VPI

nothing less than Top Notch!

Cant wait to see em.

Not knowing anything about it. Does it happen to be derived from your T stock. I remember seeing newborns with hets, and the hets had such wonderful coloration.

What do you think,

Come on John, you have to put your money where your mouth is. Daytona is the place. We can even get the "expert" Ronne himself to join in. It might be a $1000 trip for you John. I'll even give you one of my Pastel Scmastels. LOL

The challenge is this. I will put 10 boas on the table, some will come from a "proven line" and some won't. You must pick out what comes from the proven line. $1000 says nobody can do it. If you can't do it, I get your $1000.
All entrants in the contest must have their $100 entry fee is one month before Daytona. I need to get the 10 boas together. I will ask Pete Kahl to be the judge. You can send him the entry fee. I will contact him and let him know what's up. LOL

Hey John, your statement here seems to show me a conflict of interest from both you, and Ronne.

"I'll be honest. When I first got into pastels years ago. I almost bought an animal that really would be considered a "lower grade" pastel. Luckly, I went to Ronne and talked with him about the trait before the purchase. I ended up not buying the one and bought two of his Lucy bloodline pastels."

This statement tells me all I need to know.

Never argue with someone that knows they're right.

Never argue with someone that knows they're right.

Too funny! LOL!

Come on John, you have to put your money where your mouth is. Daytona is the place. We can even get the "expert" Ronne himself to join in. It might be a $1000 trip for you John. I'll even give you one of my Pastel Scmastels. LOL

LOL! You mean, put my money where your mouth is right? Remember, you started the contest.

"The challenge is this. I will put 10 boas on the table, some will come from a "proven line" and some won't. You must pick out what comes from the proven line. $1000 says nobody can do it. If you can't do it, I get your $1000."

Someone would be a fool to enter. Gus's animals prove this perfectly. I doubt he would call his animals a pastel proven line. Yet, I would call them pastels in a second. (Without a second thought) Remember, these are line driven animals. You could breed two normal boas and get a few pastels in the litter. Therefore, your contest is "rigged". No one could win it and you would have a pocket full of money in the end. Good idea though. Just not for anyone else.

"Hey John, your statement here seems to show me a conflict of interest from both you, and Ronne.
This statement tells me all I need to know."

What exactly does it tell you? That I was just as ignorant about the pastel trait as many others in the beginning? I freely admitted that. Or, did I let the dreaded pastel secret out? D@mn my fingers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!
John

"Never argue with a crazy person. They like almonds."
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

"LOL! You mean, put my money where your mouth is right? Remember, you started the contest.

I may have started the contest, but Guy started the debate. These posts seem to prove my point about "Pastels" though. It's a certain look, proven line or not. This is why nobody can win that contest. Give me any other so called morph...Jungle...Motley....etc.... and I couldn't make this bet and expect to win. Well, maybe I could with some of the people I see on this forum. LMAO

That's another debate. Is a Pastel a Morph? I say no.

I've lost my mind, so I must be the best!!!!!

>The challenge is this. I will put 10 boas on the table, some will come from a "proven line" and some won't. You must pick out what comes from the proven line

I don't know anyone who has said they could pick out one from a 'proven line' over someone else's that shows the pastel traits.
"Pastel" is not a 'morph' that is expressed as dominant or resessive and I don't think anyone claims that to be the case.
I of course am NO expert!!! Just based on my own readings here and prior converstaions... Pastel is a variation of normal with the specific characteristic of washed out/reduced black and typically very washed out side medallions (which as already stated tends to make colors show up more vividly). There are lots of boas out there that express this characteristic. Jeff line bred his boas trying to get that low black trait to show up more and more. I don't believe he's stated "breed a pastel to a normal and have pastel babies". If you breed a pastel to a 'dark normal' the babies will probably be anywhere in the spectrum from some showing more of the light pastel-influance with just as many coming out as dark as the 'dark normal'.

Personally I would only call boas 'pastels' if they are specifically from one of the 'pastel' lines since those people chose that name to describe their line-bred boas and the specific traits they were breeding for. I call my boa a high-pink boa. Do I think she is pastel? I wouldn't call her that since I don't know her history. Do I think she could be considered a pastel? Possibly, she is very clean, very low black (besides the tail) and very washed-out side medallions, but I will always just call her a high-pink normal. If I breed her year after year specially keeping and breeding the lowest black and highest-pink babies to other babies with the same traits I could call them 'cherry' boas instead of pastel if I wanted to and then I would have coined that name for my line-bred boas... which in all reality were just nice colored normals bred togehter over and over to keep the high level of influance of high-pink/low-black.

The amount of 'pastels' on the classifieds is astounding, esp when quite a few appear to just be nice normals with a little pink wash on the sides like lots of other normals. It's up to the buyer to understand what they are getting and research just what the specific morph is that they want.

Just had to throw my $.02 into this debate, I don't know why I am probably asking for it! haha

My high-pink boa was being sold as a Salmon (luckliy I knew she wasn't as soon as I saw her), so in any and all cases it is always buyer beware.

-April

pic is from a few years ago..

Wow, she is a real beautifully colored animal. Very nice.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

You came back from Daytona with a motley and a jungle and empty wallet.:0) LOL Just Great. But you got amazning snakes and im sure your wife loves them. LOL
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Gabor

www.boas-pythons.pl

So what happens if someone produces a litter that has a 1/4 of the offspring showing a distinct reduction in black. Further breedings go on to show that this reduction in black is passed on as a recessive trait... now what?! I just think it's crazy to say that "pastel" is "x" and is always passed on like "y".

Round and round we go

Thanks,

Guy Scavone II
Living Art Herpetology

That would be a VERY interesting occurance. Boy, and I thought the Pastel trait would be confusing!!!!!!! That would be the end all. LOL!
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

There may be a recessive form. The Square Tail trait from European animals. The trait has proven simple recessive and Kahl has produced hets, and DH Albino Square Tail. The Homozygous Square tail are lighter and more colorful than even many Pastel boas.

This boa line was made in Poland over 15 years. To this day they are sold for normal boa price as normal boas. Selective breeding of 3 genaration made this. I think they are like Pastels from Ronns definition. No black!!! We end up with boa like the one on the picture. What ya think?

Image

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Gabor

www.boas-pythons.pl

One more pictue.

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Gabor

www.boas-pythons.pl

And a baby. Its on the right side. :0)
The one on the bottom i could aslo call a Pastel dont you think?

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Gabor

www.boas-pythons.pl

Yours is textbook, according to the Ronne definition. You have had experience with him and his boas, introduceing some amaizing amarali to Europe, and to the world. Good luck with the "Zig-zag" as well. The original shares traits of Colombian T Albinos.

Your pastel reminds me of the EBV Red Group bloodline.

Thank you Chriss. Big mess with the Pastels.
I can see that its hard for people to understand that its not about pink, orange etc.
The amarali female will have babys any day now. Cant wait!!! Maybe a few abberant this time.

Friendly
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Gabor

www.boas-pythons.pl

"According to who? Who decided all of this?"

I am making the assumption you are talking about color here. Everyone obviously has different likes and interests. I tend to love color. The babies I got from my litter where full of it. To me, that was the extra added bonus.
Davey seems to go towards the yellows. His interests. Both pastels.......Both with different underlying colors. Which is better? You would have to ask the people who buy them. I am sure that Davey, like myself, breeds animals for himself and his likes. I know I was very excited to have my first keepers! It was a dream come true. Literally!
So, I guess we decide what we like. Then the buyer decides what they like. And, we are just regurgitating their likes with our own.
Hopefully I answered the correct question.
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

First off..........Awesome boas!!! The boas you posted would be very nice Pastels in my opinion. If I had the cage space, and the boss's (wife's) approval, I would buy them all from you at a normals price.
Here is my half a cup of coffee/trying to get the kids ready in the morning pastel "definition".
For me, since the Pastel term was coined by Ronne I have stuck to what his definition is. It is an animal that is line bred, which exhibits an overall reduction of black. Breeding two animals, which have this look, should result in some offspring exhibiting a more noticeable reduction of black. Pastel is almost a misnomer in my eye. It has nothing to do with color at all. This is a "natural hang up" due to the name. It is almost misleading. (Which I am sure it was not meant to be.)
It is a line driven "morph" plain and simple. THIS IS WHERE the labeling questions begin. Like you, I have also seen many, many animals being sold as pastels that I would never buy. Like you said, they look just like normals. This morph is a VERY buyer beware animal in my opinion. You have to know what a Pastel really is before you can buy one. It really is a sad truth. People will ride on the "coat tails" of know names to sell their animals. American Jungles, almost Motleys, Arabasqueish, and lets not forget Pastel. I have been around for quite some time. Luckily, I pretty much know a fake when I see one. (A side note" Since Jungles have been posted here so much it is my prediction we will see a lot more "Jungles" in the classifieds which will only end up being aberrant boas.)
Sorry, I am digressing. Here is where the "real confusion lies".
Since the pastel is a line driven animal all you need to start off with are a couple of boas that have a noticeable reduction of black. The some of the babies would/could be first generation pastels. Since it is a line driven animal. It does not have to come from the founder’s name only. (Even though some of them have. Ex. EBV reds) So, this is where the "different" pastel line names come from. Davey pastel is a great example of this. His bloodline has no association with Ronnes that I know of. But, they are an awesome example of the beauty of a pastel. Seeing some of Larry Keller's animals posted on here are a great example of a pastel. (But, I think he just labels them as nice normals only.) So, people use the description of the animal by try and show that this is their line.
Genetics????????//
Again, I will wait for the founder of the line to officially say how he thinks the genetics are. I can however share my experience with breeding pastels.
I had a Ronne Pastel bred to a male Church Pastel Anery. (The Ronne is a know line of pastels. The anery was always/still is a very light animal. Still a reduction of black on him) Breeding these two animals together brought about 21 babies. Only one looked like a normal boa. The rest exhibited the pastel trait from their parents. There was obviously a varying degree as well. In my opinion, there are lesser pastels and high-end pastels. All are differentiated by their overall reduction of black. Color was a nice byproduct. But, has nothing to do with being a pastel. It's just icing on the cake.

Here are things I look for in a pastel.
And, for the sake of the examle...I'm only talking about "normals". No Anerys....Etc.
1) Overall look. Speckling/black??? How light is the animal? How much contrast does the animal have?
2) Side medallions. Are they faint....Or, dark??? Do they have low/medium/high degree of black within it?
3)The belly. Is the speckling/black? Again, low/medium/high.
4)The side of the tail. Where the tail bands are. Is the speckling/black? Again, low/medium/high.
5)I erased five.
6)Saddles. Are they tan. How much black is there? low/medium/high.
7)I will even look at the "moustache". Is it all there? Or, does it appear to be smaller than normal. We've all heard this technique talked about with hypos.
8)Color. Now this has nothing to do with an animal being a pastel...But, I want it all!!

So it really is an overall reduction of black. And, there are many variables to it. It can't be helped unfortunately. So, I look at all these things and then think to myself....This animal will darken with age.....Will this be a light or dark adult?

Here's a good read on pastels from Ronne.
http://www.theboaforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=boapics1&action=display&num=1050880714

Hope my post makes sense. It's the ramblings of a "madman".
Take care,
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

I really wish Jeff was home so that we could maybe get him on here to respond to all of this... figures. And I agree with you on the whole "jungle" thing. Just another can of worms!

Thanks,

Guy Scavone II
Living Art Herpetology

I should read all your posts before I reply in a thread since I just ended up repeating most of your post here! haha
Although it can be frustrating, I think these threads about phenotype names are very informative and I always seem to get a new perspective or at least more to think about!

have a good one

I liked your post.
Psssssstttttttt...............I think that pink one you have is a pastel.
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

I'm not sure why it was removed?! I posted a reply and now it's gone? Anyone?!

Thanks,

Guy Scavone II
Living Art Herpetology

I didnt even get so much as a hey, watch your post email......

Ok, ill say the "refined version" of it again since it was so rudely deleted.

I have my own bloodline of animals that produce pastels, if you dont like them, you are not required to buy them, but you could extend the common courtesy of not trying to "Police" me or my animals and call them "Normals" when they are not. If you have any questions about my animals, I will be happy to talk it over with you at Daytona over a nice cold one, Ill be sitting next to Niel and his better than sunglow striped albinos
(i have one of them, and it does look like a sunglow

So now you finally admit it. The stripe line rules!!!! LOL.

Daytona should be fun for me this year. I've been stirring it up on both the ball and boa forums. Make sure all you "experts" track me down and say what's on your mind. I'm easy to find, just look for the guy with all the beautiful women following him around.LOL. You could also ask Chub Rock(Ralph) where to find Guns.

Maybe you could ask OZ, I think he's organizing a let's kick Neil's a$$ party. He needs more people to make it a fair fight right now. Give Ozzy Boids a call. I hear the beer is on OZ.

Arrogance only bothers the weak!!!

This must explain why I bother so many people.LOL. Huh OZ?

Guy Scavone II
Living Art Herpetology

Guy, she looks the same, just bigger. I am going to bring her to Daytona. The right amount of my good friend Ben Franklin, might pry her from my fingers. If I do sell her, I will give a free Pastel Scmastel male to the buyer.lol.

I think it might be time to retire that joke.

Hey Guy...you my friend have a nice pile of Pastels...

It is my opinion what has happened with pastels, is that years ago they exhisted in peoples collections and breeders had no idea that they were anything special, so sold off all those gray babies as normals at shows or to the pet shop trade. Then when the breeder is looking for nice big normal females to breed for albinos or Salmons...what does he/she do? They get that nice clean (Pastel) boa to breed to. Eventually people started seeing the different looks that were out there in the Pastels. Now that people are proveing that there is a definite trait with the pastels, all of the newbies to the boa breeding craze...including myself, find that they also have Pastels in their own collection. I think there is alot more to the Pastel than we realize. I doubt people are breeding that trait exclusively, simply because the money is not there yet. I think we have only begun with these Pastels...Andy

.
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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin