Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi All,

I have some questions about my female eastern box turtles. I have had them for numerous years and in the past have been able to watch the 'restless' females to see where they lay in they outdoor enclosure and collect the eggs later to bring indoors to incubate. This year however I am unable to watch them as closely as I would like to do to a different schedule. Is there a way to make/build a suitable egg laying area in my pen? What things do they look for other then suitable soil and quiet area away from the busy areas of the pen?

Also, if I palpated eggs on my females could I move them into smaller pens until they drop the eggs...egg laying pens? Would the stress of the move/new surroundings lead them to become egg bound? I am just trying to decide what the best strategy is to collect the eggs from my females though I will not be around to watch them lay (I am around in the mornings, not evenings when they typically lay). As for the 'egg laying pens' I was looking to construct them like the pen that is shown in the Turtles and Tortoise for dummies book...the balcony pen. Think this would work/be sufficient? Little concerned about becoming egg bound as I lost a female three years ago to becoming egg bound, took her to surgery but still could not save her.

Any advice/opinions are appreciated.

I've had boxies for 12- 13 years. I had Gulf Coast, Western Ornate, and Three Toed. Mostly now I have Easterns and Floridas (T.c. bauri). I was thinking on the same lines as you are now a few years ago. I constructed a smaller more private pen for nexting. In a 4ft. X 4 ft. tall wood sided box to block any nervous boxies view; I added 2 ft. deep of milled peat moss. Under in and to one side I buried a HOG HEATER. The heater is completely waterproof and is on a timer that comes on when temps drop here at night and turns off at one hour after dawn...(For the spring). Several areas had shallow tunnels and water holding containers. I planted Romaine lettuce in the nesting area and made rock slab hides also. Some of my females heavily laden with eggs would lay the nightI I put them in; others were very restless and the box seemed to inhibit their nesting.

It seems they have indivdual preferences. Not familar with the "Turtles and Tortoise" for dummies book; I can't respond. However all boxies when ready do need and want some common elements.
Female boxies want privacy, security, quietness, and an area with loose soil that they can dig their hour glass shaped cavity about 9 inches deep. They like to pack it tightly and smooth the top so no one will notice. They like to not be disturbed.

This next behavior may help you locate their nests when you are not available during nesting. I notices 90% of the time after a female lays eggs; she stays on top of the spot for the next 6-8 hours. One would almost think she is guarding them. Futher evidence that supports the "Guarding" instinct is when I tried to remove her from the spot; she became very agitated. She also would try and maintain her position against other roommates for the 6- 8 hours after which she seemed to forgot about it all. It may help you locate buried eggs. I find I can tell from my boxies behavior when she is about to nest and afterwards, am able to locate the eggs within five minutes. It just takes some time realing watching their behavior.

Now I rarely use my nesting box except on rare occasions. If one of my boxies is egg bound; I choose not to use surgery. Reason is they don't ever become egg bound in the wild; only in captivity. Mainly due to inactivity. But once egg bound there are non surgical ways to let her drop those eggs. I am not a VET. I don't profess to practice Herpitological Medicine. Email me for any advice on other measures.
That will come in VOLUME 2. Sorry this is so long.
Ric

Our Easterns, and those of other keepers I'm in contact with, and wild ones I've seen nesting, have all chosen soil that is VERY compacted for nest digging(the wild one I watched on one occasion dug a nest in compacted gravel that had some soil in it). They abandon nest digging in looser soil because it tends to collapse continually as they dig.
Also, none of our Easterns have ever dug a nest that approached the depth you mentioned, but rather dig to a depth of 3-4 inches.
Regards
Stephanie

AHHHH....Nesting....It’s akin to human females; one wanting a birthing center, and another wants the extreme...Cesarian with spinal, while our Native Americans went to a private place and bit a piece of wood and gave birth to entire populations of healthy people.

Nest selection site is extremely important because it will influence both the temperature at which eggs develop and the likelihood of predation of their hatching. In addition, good nesting site should be free of catastrophic disturbances, such as periodic flooding and should contain substrates that are friable and will allow proper gas exchange. Females don’t always choose the best site for the highest chances of hatchling survival.

Nest site selection is a product of natural selection for certain parameters, such as nest substrate, and of the availability, of these parameters within her environment. If a female cannot find an ideal location, she may settle for one less optimal. ( like the ONE you viewed with gravel in it ?) In captivity given a variety of substrates; females even deposit eggs on the substrate surface. ( As many of us have probably witnessed)

Many, many different substrates have been used as successful nesting mediums for easterns. As long as the material will hold together while she builds her nest; all species of boxies will favor building in damp, loamy / sand soil as opposed to gravel. And the hatchling's survival will be evidence of this. Species preservation is much stronger than individual preservation...Especially when one boxy may make a less than optimal nest choice. Watching a wild boxie is neat. To think that being so close to see it’s nest depth; and also thinking one is not observed and will not affect nest building ( with the extreme senses, smell, and hearing plus extreme nervousness that wild boxies instinctively have for survival) is a bit presumptuous.

While I was answering a general question...to be specific.
The depth of the cavity depends on the size of the female, and her ability to dig effectively. Turtles with missing claws or those that have foot problems dig imperfect or shallower cavities.
During site selection, ground scraping, and the initial phases of digging, the female can be disturbed easily by movement or noise (even breathing). If disturbed she can stop all digging, close up her nest and move on. If she encounters impediments to nesting, she usually will relocate to a site without roots, rocks, or excessively compacted soil.

In conclusion, the female will dig a cavity as deep as the female can reach with her hind limbs while the posterior part may rest on the lip of the cavity. Temperature and humidity play a part in the final depth to ensure hatchling survival. Some nests in covered, humid hot areas with leaves over them for insulation will be shallower than nests with less security. It would be better to offer an area deeper than needed and let each female boxy decide; five inches, six inches, too dry.... eight inches... greater humidity, more insulated, more secure..( more females prefer - from my experience). . No pun intended. I have personally favored a milled peat moss / and sand mixture 3:2 ratio to be very successful. All my boxies over the past 12 years have dug cavities at least 6 inches deep with the average being 8 inches.

Incidentally the female will brush debris, grass, or small pebbles over the nesting site in order to obscure it. She does a fantastic job using her feet and plastron. It can appear she has laid eggs in gravel.

Coincidentally two of my boxies have hatched this morning! Always exciting for me.
I'll let them stay and get used to the world for another day or two.
I will post pics of them this week on this board.
Thanks for your reply.
Ric

I disagree.
Perhaps you're confusing centimeters with inches...ahhh, is this male wishful thinking....? Reminds me of a very old joke about women and their lack of ability to measure accurately.

FYI, I mentioned the wild female nesting in gravel merely as an example: actually, said female had many acres of more friable soil, and yet chose the hard packed.
They also can only dig a nest about as far as they can extend their hind legs, which, for an Eastern, is about 3-4 inches. I confine my remarks to Easterns because that's what I have: other box turtles may differ. You may have giants.

Our turtles also have a variety of soils to choose from, and consistently go for the hard stuff: they abandon digging when the nest walls fail to hold together in looser soil.
The folks who post here (and elsewhere) when their females are eggbound or have deposited eggs on the surface frequently do not have deep, hard packed soil where the girls can dig a decent nest: in fact, the inexperienced find themselves in trouble when they follow the kind of advice you've given. Just check the archives of this forum for some examples if you like.

With all due respect,
Stephanie

“Reminds me of a very old joke about women and their lack of ability to measure accurately” You said it!

I haven’t been aware of this statement until you mentioned it in the above email. Many old jokes start out as truths. In as such; I agreed with the above statement!

You may have overlooked my statements in the second paragraph. Friable soils allow proper air exchange. Hard packed soils don’t allow for air and water exchange.

However in the fourth paragraph, I stated “ as long as the material will hold together while she builds her nest.....” Putting the female in a nest site THAT HOLDS TOGETHER in 8 inches with not inhibit her if she wants to only dig a nest 4 inches....just as the earth isn't’ t only 4 inches deep.

Yet you continue to make redundant statements; however, just read my post.
I don’t have giants; and I never have egg binding problems.

I’ve been breeding box turtles for twelve years and find that your information is contrary to all I have personally witnessed and studied.
You state that female Eastern Boxies can only extend their leg 4 inches. Although I haven’t measured the exact length an eastern female can extend her leg and I feel it would differ with each individual...lets go with your statement.

Female Eastern Box Turtles extend their fore legs while nesting in order to elevate the anterior portion of their body slightly and to brace it as she digs. She digs the nest only using the hind legs and her body is held at an angle of ten - fifteen degrees, while the rear of her plastron is resting on the substrate. She digs in a semicircular motion; while using both the claws and the soles of her feet.

Using your figure of four inches and if you use a simple protractor, an angle measuring device......

You can measure the effect of her achievable depth when her body is angled at 10 -15 degrees while digging her nest cavity. The four inch length of her leg is actually lowered.

It becomes more like 5.5 inches. A female with just 4.5 inch length is able to reach greater depths.

*Further information that states to use a soft substrate for nesting is found in this Kingsnake Herp Index By Respected Lifetime Authors
Copied verbatim below...

Breeding Box Turtles by Tess Cook
After mating in the spring, the female turtle looks for nesting sites in June or July. Provide the egg-bearing females with a solitary outdoor pen that faces south and contains several good sites for egg laying. This pen should be equipped like the main pen, with hiding places, sunny and shady spots. It should also have several areas with soft top soil that is at least 8 inches deep.

A Page from the Wyvern's Lair
North American Box Turtles
Breeding:
* When it comes to breeding, it is best to let nature take its course rather than trying to force the issue and the same goes for the eggs. It is also good to make sure there is a good spot within the enclosure that the female can properly lay eggs in, a nice, soft loose pile of damp dirt or a mini compost pile is good.

CREATING THE PROPER ENVIRONMENT ............................. Melissa Kaplan
Breeding
Create the land area using 2-3 inches of good quality plain sterile potting soil slightly moistened. Do not use backyard dirt or soil from a garden, and there should be no perlite or vermiculite mixed into the soil. Mix the soil with finely shredded orchid bark. You may also use plain fir or orchid bark, or deep drifts of alfalfa. Do not use coarse substrates such as sand, gravel or rock which can scratch the shell, opening the way to bacterial infections.

For the many reasons above.....
I respectfully disagree with you.
Ric

BTW,
I don't reference Melissa Kaplans info on box turtles because I find it contains many inaccuracies.
Stephanie