Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Eastern Hognose Snakes make great pets for keepers with thet ime and experience to raise them. Contrary to popular belief a CB hognose as this one-will accept-not only the standard toad meal, but will always take F/T Wood Frogs, F/T fish,
rodents and so on. If conditioned early on to accept these foods they will continue with the varied diet. This one was CB by me in 2001 and she is now 4 years old. To all the nay-sayers-I think I have proven my point. The variable diet is the key.

*note reduce using WC frogs, fish and toads I have found suppliers-few and fair between to provide F/T. Important first feeding-do ot-offer toads as the first meal.

Is post is being made to prove my point to a certain herpteologist who claimed my snakes would die on the diet.
You were wrong. I think the photo says it all.

and before anyone asks I DO NOT sell my CB hognose-they were bred for research only and now they are my beloved pets.

Please share your sources for getting frozen frogs and toads. I would like very much to buy some for my yearling WC eastern.

Zane

Great job with that eastern. Shes a beauty. I agree...too many give easterns a bad wrap. I should have a cluch sometime this summer. A nice orange yellow cross. All of my easterns will greedily accept f/t gulfcoast toads and f/t mice. The bloodlines that i am working with also grow very fast. Are you expecting any babies this season?
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Be excellent to each other...and Party on dude!

I haven't made an effort to breed these 3 as 2 are related. plus the laws here prevent sales-so my breeding is only for me to study and have nice CB pets of my own. If I do breed them-I have to donate them to educational programs and so on. (it's not even legal to turn them loose).

I did however do some work in breeding for colour-what a failure that was-a black female (to a black male) threw every colour in the book!!
and my reddish female (when bred to one simsialr in colour) did the same. So well-seems like for the most part-colour isn't necessarily or entirely dependent on genetics. I gave that up years and years ago. I have noted that is area produces every colur you can think of and then some.

I no longer collect from the wild-but I photograph every one I come across. I have come across brilliant reds, yellows, greens, tans, oranges, salmon pink and patternless black and chocolate brown again no visiable pattern. (no albinos yet)

And before anyone asks-collecting this particular area is strictly off limits-but if you want to see a bunch of beautiful hognose-and get great photos. It's a great area for that and study.

Yes eastern hogs thrive in captivity with a little effort. How large is your four year old hog? Looks female is it? I have an almost two year old female eastern she is 34" and male who is 31" Im just curious to find out about the average growth rates among captive hognose. My other two males are much smaller (19", 27" and are the same age. I bred the female in 2004(yes as a yearling) when she was 28" to an 19" male. Problem was that I think they were related. Anyway, she triple clutched and I was left with 40 babies. I sold most of them to hear that they died within months of purchase while my holdbacks thrived. How do you post a pic on the forum? Im sure we can learn from each other on diet and husbantry of e. hogs. Great hog pic I want to send some of my own.

J.B.

"Live in the present, not in the future."

to upload pics on this all you have to do is click on this link up load your pics and then when you come back here and want to post they would be in the select image from photo gallery in the bottom of the post ,
good luck
sam
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/login.php?action=upload&cat=557
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LIFE IS GOOD ENJOY IT WHILE YOU CAN.
------------------------------------------------
3.7 W.HOGS
1.2 TRI COLOR HOGS
1.2 GREEN TREE PYTHON
0.1 VIPER BOA
1.1 BLACK KINGS
1.1 AMAZON TREE BOA
0.0.1 GREAT BASIN RATTLER
0.0.1 SIDE WINDER
1.1 CRESTED GECKOS
0.0.2 SULCATA'S
0.0.8 RED EAR/MAP/SOFT SHELLS
1.5 BLACK/GREEN POISON DART FROG'S
0.0.5 BUMBLE BEE POISON DART FROGS
2.4 GREEN TREE FROGS
1.6 AUSTRALIAN GAINT STICK BUGS
1.0 SIAMESE CAT

The one in the photo is a female (34", There is a slightly smaller female (26" and then the smallest being the male (20". I have found out an amasing little fact-that if you feed them very heavily-you can get a female up to 26" in less than a year-but it's not healthy for them. I'm pleased with the growth rate and geneneral health of these 3.

Of the extra babies produced I donated them to Educational centers. They seem to be thriving by the photos I received. (there were a few-mishaps-which weren't natural death). I found out a few other interesting things about them-if they aren't going to make it-they can still make it to just under 2 years of age-generally from what I've noted-if they make it to 2 years of age-they do very well there after. The one I mentioned above that grow very quickly did die at under 2 years of age.

I have allowed them to progress at a nature rate-regular feeding schedule and so on.

I've also noted that some hognose that genetic defects may not show them until a year of age.

Oh to post photos on the forum-go to the Photo gallery-here-open an account and upload (there are other ways-but this works nicely) then when you post-go to Select Image from Photo Gallery and a list will come up and you pick the one you want to use. Nice and easy. I also-so I don't forgoet to check back anymore-check the box to Receive e-mail notification of reply-very helpful. (if you get busy doing other things like I do)

I'll try to get the 3 to sit still for a photo together and post it-they are very active!! Feel free to e-mail me BTW

It would be easier to give you a very complete history of the studies I've done if you're interested.

I signed up on the hognose site as E.V.O. Thanks for the info on your snankes. You are right about the feeding often trick. If it does not kill the hog in a year or so the hog will end up with fat deposits and arterial deposits. With healthy e. hogs I usually feed once a week with a combo of a toad and equally sized mouse based on the size of the snake. Sometimes mice are not needed in the feeding and I use toads only. Mice are higher in calories than toads, and do store more fat than toads(especially females). The only time I feed e. hogs heavilly is after they lay eggs. The hogs seem to be really exhausted and even lose some fat in their tails. Although I feed my hogs once a week, the female I bred as a yearling retains fat in her tail while her body is normal weight. Even without overfeeding some individuals grow exceedingly faster than others. Also the switch from fuzzie and pink mice to hopper and adult mice triggers a growth spurt in easterns due to the elevated calcium levels in the weaned and post weaned stages of mouse development(or at least it happened in my e. hogs). Frozen bronze frog and bullfrog parts sometimes consitute a large part of my eastern's diet when toads are out of season. I was going to take some pics, but all I have is a stupid camera phone and the pics suck. I will see if a friend of mine can take some pics.

-J.B.

> If it does not kill the hog in a year or so

Neither I or anybody I know has been able to find any evidence supporting a direct or indirect link of a mouse diet causing a death in an eastern hognose snake.

> the hog will end up with fat deposits and arterial deposits.

Along the same lines, this kind of information has never been supported in any legitimate way. If you have information, or access to information, such as necropsy reports or hemotology, please pass them along! But until I get just a single shred of evidence, you should consider claims like this to be purely unsupported and anecdotal.

>Mice are higher in calories than toads, and do store more fat than toads(especially females).

Again, what are your sources?

>The only time I feed e. hogs heavilly is after they lay eggs.

Good! It is likely that most of the deaths that could be remotely attributed to feeding mice, are probably more directly related to overfeeding and subsequent hepatic lipidosis when hognoses go on their random anorexia.

> triggers a growth spurt in easterns due to the elevated calcium levels in the weaned and post weaned stages of mouse development

Calcium alone can be responsible for a growth spurt?

Again, I would like to emphasize that most of the information being circulated on Internet forums about Eastern hognoses and mouse diets, are completely baseless. I have heard some pretty outlandish claims. Hopefully you'll understand my skepticism to your post. But like I said, we need to get in the habit of citing our sources if we were going to ever get anywhere and make any progress in Eastern hognose husbandry.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

All I am saying about powerfeeding is that the animal will become overweight regardless of its diet. I have lost animals due to eggbinding because they were overweight. Obesity in animals(including humans of course)is caused by deposits of fat from extra stored calories. I have seen snakes die from arterial sclerosis that were overweight, although none were hognose(pituophis sayi, necropsy found extra fat storage and clogged arteries leading to heart failure.) I have 04" easterns that were raised on a mouse only diet, and their body structure does not differ from my toad eaters. I will continue to raise e. hogs on a mouse only diet. Mice have more calories than toads, I know I read this several times but I remember that mice only have about 10 more calories to a toad. Maybe you might know a source to find out the exact ratio of calories. Anyway, the calorie difference is minimal. Mammals burn more calories than amphibians because of a higher metabolic rate due to heat producing reactions, thus mammmals tend to store more fat and have more calories. I can't give the details on this, but the topic is open so maybe someone can help. Female mammals store more fat than males because of their ability to care for offspring internally, so that is why I said mice have more calories, especially females. It might be best to feed hognose on rodents less, than hogs on amphibians. Here are a few things to consider:
-hognose adrenal glands ability to conteract paratoid toxin might affect hognose on mice only.
-calcium levels and other nutrients in stages of mouse development compared to toad development
-calculating caloric intake of wild hognose
-the tolerance of other amphibian eating snakes to a mouse only diet(ie. garters, nerodia, farancia)
-finding record of premature death of all species of heterdon and lyophis.
-understanding why heavily fed hogs have a lower survival rate.

I would like to help you with your research on "mice only easterns" perhaps you might be interested in some baby mouse eaters(on scented or fully switched) if I breed my female? We need as many mouse eating hogs as possible to get good results. And a toad/amphibian eating group as well. But it will take many years for results perhaps 10 years of keeping the specimens and records. You mentioned an institute with mouse eating easterns maybe you could get records of thier lifespan and deathrates. Is there research being done for e. hog diet? Maybe when I graduate I should persue this topic. Looks like I opened more questions than answers. If there is anyway I can help let me know.

-J.B

Evidence is hard to gather-agreed-but I can personally show you photos of several eastern hognose-that were fed only mice-they are now deceased-they gained too much weight and eventually died. I have photos that show this-compared to the ones with varied diets that still with me.

In the winter when toads are not around maybe finding frozen bullfrog legs might be a good idea instead of feeding mice throughout the winter months. I do not like taking amphibians from the wild, but no matter were your source of amphibians are from, most are garanteed to be w.c. I do not recall seeing too many c.b. bronze frogs and native bufo spp. I feed some of my hogs vitamin/calcium dusted bullfrog legs in the winter and they seem to keep a more natural weight. I know e. hogs love to eat fish...and frozen fish are easy to come by but I do have a question: what fish are you feeding to your e.hogs? did you know that fish in cyprinidae(goldfish family ie. carp, minnows,barbs) are high in thiaminase and can cause a vitamin B deficiency in snakes? and freezing fish increases the level of thiaminase. I have kept water snakes on a variety of frozen fish for up to two years--untill most died of thiaminase poisoning--signs include lathargic behavior, decreased appetite, poor muscle control, and rapid weight loss. Do you know anyone who has lost a water snake to this? I doubt it would affect hognose as directly unless their diet was composed of fish only. Down here the population of bronze frogs are very high. Perhaps I can catch some from heavily populated areas and ship some to you? By the way your hognose seem to have a more "natural weight" than some of mine. How often do you feed them? I usually brumate mine form dec-march.

You said:>

What I would suggest is that you send out such hogs for necropsies and diagnosis of their actual cause of death. And then archive the results so that future necropsy reports can be compared.

E. hogs that are fed mice, in my opinion, should not be fed as often.

Hogwild, your alluring to a possible adrenal gland/mouse diet relationship may not be a fanciful thought. But we hope that more internet rumors don't start LOL. Kory introduced me to a contact that is going to try and ferret this out through blood and fecal analysis (there's a lot to figure out, one of which is how to get a good treatment group, and then a control group of significant number). But we have other baby steps to take first. I can hear Kory grinding his teeth about my slacker-ness in the last few weeks. I beg forgiveness. But Hogwild, your help down the road would be welcome.

Hognose affinity to other N.A. snakes is still questionable, so comparisons are tough to draw on diet effects. Various studies have shown different things as far as relationships. Whether by mtDNA, phenotype traits, hemipenal morphology, venom components, musculature- where they sit is still up in the air (at least in my opinion). A bit tough to read, but interesting, is Pinou's "Relict snakes of North America and their relationships within Caenophidia, using likelihood-based Bayesian methods on mitochondrial sequences." It talks about Heterodon.

The most hognose like snake in the New World, to me. . .seems to be Xenodon in Costa Rica. Rare fanged, a toad eater, that even flattens its head a bit, it is even also rumored to "pop" toads. Unless I missed it, I haven't seen it's mtDNA compared yet to Heterodon, or its venom. If anyone knows otherwise, let me know. Thanks.

One thing we can say: Heterodons are truly unique and an enigma in many ways. Eastern hognoses carry that a step further. At least they keep us searching, learning and on our toes.

Kenny B.

Hogwild:
What Kenny was eluding to, but never quite stated, is that he and I have been working together with a few other professionals to sort out the E hog diet contraversy. The type of experiment you stated was very close to what we are trying to do. We are currently working on our own website, easternhognose.com, and that perhaps you would be interested in contributing to it and our discussions on the matter in the future.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

or t my site also being done be a professional

http://reptilians.org/hognose
Link

>>or t my site also being done be a professional
>>
>>http://reptilians.org/hognose
>>Link

I'm sorry, but your post doesn't make any sense.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

It does if you read yours again.

So to clear this up-for you-I would like people to contribute to my site, where everyone's opinions will be treated with RESPECT. Where new keepers can come for advice and use any and all informarion to help care for their snakes. It will have the resources of any and all who want to use it. If you have ideas -please post them-what works for you might work for someone else

Photos are fun and informative and I invite all to post whatever they like.

I have a professional career involving herps for 30 years and the only reason I bothered to mention that was for YOUR (Colchicine)information. I certainly don't expect respect for you-but it validates that I have experience.

http://reptilians.org/hognose

Warning: if you decide to "harass" people-as Colchicine put it - you will be banned.

Almost all of this was on www.hognose.com but since Dennis got deployed to a bad place-it might be a while till it's back up.

Sigh--I pray for him everyday.

Update: Someone has purchased the domain and web material and will have it up again in a few months. The problem with the material on this subject on hognose.com was that it was extremely biased, and hadn't been updated in quite a few years.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Biased in what way? I know the person who wrote the site-so I'm curious. Did you have some problem with Dennis Desmond??

Cos Dennis knows his stuff!!!

Just because you know someone does not mean that they are capable of fault! No, I do not have any particular problem with Dennis Desmond, as I happen to know him myself. It has been a while since I last read through his web site on this particular subject, but I recall that the material was once again based upon conjecture, and relied heavily upon personal opinion. Since I have already been jumped on, keep in mind that personal opinion is just fine for the most part. But we now need to move beyond the hypothesis development phase, we doubt unlikely theories, and try to find information developed by the rigors of the scientific method.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

>>Just because you know someone does not mean that they are capable of fault!>No, I do not have any particular problem with Dennis Desmond, as I happen to know him myself. >It has been a while since I last read through his web site on this particular subject, but I recall that the material was once again based upon conjecture, and relied heavily upon personal opinion.> Since I have already been jumped on, keep in mind that personal opinion is just fine for the most part.> But we now need to move beyond the hypothesis development phase, we doubt unlikely theories, and try to find information developed by the rigors of the scientific method.

I understand your objections but what you seem to not understand is that all knowledge comes from personal experience and trial and error. There are so many variables in the husbandry and feeding tactics of snakes that it is impossible for humans to generalize a species under a strict set of guide lines. So...we do the next best thing. I don't know about the rest of you but for the people I know, including myself, it takes more than one try at something to get it right. This entire forum is here for the purpose of people sharing their own experiences with others. Something that has worked for one person may or may not work for someone else in the same situation. What I can't understand is why you seem to feel that unless something is backed by medical documentation it contains no factual information. Nothing...i repeat nothing in this world is perfect. That being said... how can you expect reptile husbandry to be pure exact scientific fact?
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Be excellent to each other...and Party on dude!

There is a big difference between the husbandry of hognoses, and herpetoculture in general. I agree completely with what you're saying and how it relates to the husbandry of reptiles and amphibians. The difference in hognoses is that too many people rely on other people on forums to provide their information. To be blunt, most people on these forums have little to no scientific education/background, much less anything in biology. On top of that, too many people project uniquely mammalian behaviors and biology on their herp pets. Observer bias is a huge problem in animal behavior and I think is just as prevalent in some of the theories surrounding the diets of hognoses. Unfortunately, a lot of what we know has come from anecdotal observations that has subsequently been corrupted as it gets passed around as fact on these forums (simply think of any typical gossip and how it gets magnified and sensationalized). That leads this to some of the outlandish claims people often make (and I'm not referencing anybody posting on this particular thread). As an example, I was visiting another forum and a person claimed that you cannot feed a mouse to an Eastern hognose because only toads have a particular protein that is necessary for their kidney functions. I consulted with a veterinary nutritionist who confirmed my suspicions that it was pure hogwash (and I'll take credit for that pun!).

So in conclusion, I am only asking for references when it comes to information about hognoses and their diet. Very few people are making the effort to get to the bottom of this issue in terms of research, but I can start right here by forcing people to recognize faulty and unsubstantiated information. Once again, I'll will emphasize that I'm not looking for information that supports what I believe, I'm currently looking for ANY information that gives us clues to hognose physiology! As long as people continue to make claims that they are unable to support with anything more than secondhand anecdotal accounts, I will continue to *harass* posters on these forums! I hope that clears things up for you and you'll agree that stringent standards must be expected if information based on facts is ever to be developed!

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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Quote >As an example, I was visiting another forum and a person claimed that you cannot feed a mouse to an Eastern hognose because only toads have a particular protein that is necessary for their kidney functions. I consulted with a veterinary nutritionist who confirmed my suspicions that it was pure hogwash<

Maybe, maybe not. What studies has the veterinary nutritionist done to disprove it? Is this person a reptile specialist or are they giving you information they are taking from mammal and bird studies. You see nobody knows whats fact and whats not fact as of yet. Is it possible that the e.hognose needs a certain protein or a low fat diet? Sure, but we don't know. it's all speculation right now by both amatures and professionals.
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Steve W.

Judging by the tone of your reply, you are defending a person who was spouting "speculation" as fact. Apparently, since we don't know anything for sure, it's acceptable to ACT like we know for certain? You would rather see everybody's theories broadcasted as fact instead of relying on scientifically credible evidence?
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Posted by: Colchicine at Fri May 13 16:07:42 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Judging by the tone of your reply, you are defending a person who was spouting "speculation" as fact. Apparently, since we don't know anything for sure, it's acceptable to ACT like we know for certain? You would rather see everybody's theories broadcasted as fact instead of relying on scientifically credible evidence?

What I said is that so far there is no sceintific proof of anything. If there is, feel free to post it.
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Steve W.

>>
>>What I said is that so far there is no sceintific proof of anything. If there is, feel free to post it.
>>-----
>>Steve W.

Using that logic, we could speculate all day as to why hognoses eat toads and frogs. We could just as easily speculate, for example, that in order for the liver to function properly, E. hognose snakes must eat toads. Or in order for their brains to function properly, they must eat toads. I mean, why kidney function? Is there any data out there to suggest renal function in particular?

What I think Colchicine is trying to point out is that there is no evidence to suggest that any dietary protein is necessary for the proper function of a particular organ.

griffin

griffin - Quote> Using that logic, we could speculate all day as to why hognoses eat toads and frogs. We could just as easily speculate, for example, that in order for the liver to function properly, E. hognose snakes must eat toads. Or in order for their brains to function properly, they must eat toads. I mean, why kidney function? Is there any data out there to suggest renal function in particular?

What I think Colchicine is trying to point out is that there is no evidence to suggest that any dietary protein is necessary for the proper function of a particular organ.<

We don't know what it's requiremnts are. There may be requirements. Take the horned lizard for example. It will eat insects other than ants. But it can't survive on them for very long.

LOL. I'm not saying they have to eat this or they have to eat that. What i'm saying is that there is no proof of what they can or can not tolerate eating for any length of time. Are mice bad? Toads bad? Frogs bad? salamanders/newts bad? Fish bad? Should the diet be varied? We have no proof yet as to anything thats 100% fact. It's just observations and everyone has come to different conclusions.
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Steve W.

We all can agree with your statements, 100%. But I don't think that the lack of evidence gives people license to promote theories without ANY evidence to support them, much less ones that are counterintuitive. Let's look at human history for other examples of unregulated theories promoted as fact: religion. And we all know where that has taken us.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Just one more time

> But I don't think that the lack of evidence gives people license to promote theories without ANY evidence to support them, much less ones that are counterintuitive. Let's look at human history for other examples of unregulated theories promoted as fact: religion. And we all know where that has taken us.

For some reason, you keep posting incomplete messages, or ones that contain no new information at all. I don't have a clue what that last one was about.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

yes and I have no idea why they keep doing that.

so my last 3 messsages to everyone got messed up.

and now I have no idea what I pposted exactly. so I'll just leave it at this

>>We don't know what it's requiremnts are. There may be requirements. Take the horned lizard for example. It will eat insects other than ants. But it can't survive on them for very long.
>>
>>
>>LOL. I'm not saying they have to eat this or they have to eat that. What i'm saying is that there is no proof of what they can or can not tolerate eating for any length of time. Are mice bad? Toads bad? Frogs bad? salamanders/newts bad? Fish bad? Should the diet be varied? We have no proof yet as to anything thats 100% fact. It's just observations and everyone has come to different conclusions.
>>-----
>>Steve W.

Steve, thanks for your kind reply. I agree with what you are saying in your last paragraph. I guess what I was trying to say is that I don't understand how some people come up with the conclusions (eg. hognose kidneys need bufotenin to function) that they come up with; and furthermore how they can possibly assert that their conclusions are fact.

griffin

>>Steve, thanks for your kind reply. I agree with what you are saying in your last paragraph. I guess what I was trying to say is that I don't understand how some people come up with the conclusions (eg. hognose kidneys need bufotenin to function) that they come up with; and furthermore how they can possibly assert that their conclusions are fact.

griffin>>

I don't understand some peoples findings either. Most of it seems to come from that someone else told them. But as of yet it doesn't look like much fact. Who knows.

Steve
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Steve W.

Has it even occurred to you that most of the intial knowledge of herps came from non-college educated "herpetologists"-most the older famous FAMOUS people who worked with herps were just interested in the herps and made it their life's work?
do you call everything they did to advance the hobby "anecdotal accounts"?

Do you call the first hand knowledge of a herper useless because they don't have a Herpetology or Biology degree (I do now thank you because of people like you)well then I'd call you baised as well. Dogmatic actually. Of course you are looking for evidence to support what you believe-that's what research is all about.

>I consulted with a veterinary nutritionist who confirmed my suspicions that it was pure hogwash (and I'll take credit for that pun!).

I refer to a post I have made earlier:

So in conclusion, I am only asking for references when it comes to information about hognoses and their diet. Very few people are making the effort to get to the bottom of this issue in terms of research, but I can start right here by forcing people to recognize faulty and unsubstantiated information. Once again, I'll emphasize that I'm not looking for information that supports what I believe, I'm currently looking for ANY information that gives us clues to hognose physiology! As long as people continue to make claims that they are unable to support with anything more than secondhand anecdotal accounts, I will continue to *harass* posters on these forums! I hope that clears things up for you and you'll agree that stringent standards must be expected if information about hognoses based on facts is ever to be developed!
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

fine-enjoy your efforts and continue harassing people if that's what's important to you.

But I'm not going away. I'm not going to be treated like a 2nd class citizen who knows nothing about the subject and I hope all the others follow suit.

to everyone else-don't be intimidated by someone who has decided to "play God" and has threatened to harass us for telling what we know.

Posted by: Langly2112 at Sat May 14 11:47:08 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

fine-enjoy your efforts and continue harassing people if that's what's important to you.

But I'm not going away. I'm not going to be treated like a 2nd class citizen who knows nothing about the subject and I hope all the others follow suit.

to everyone else-don't be intimidated by someone who has decided to "play God" and has threatened to harass us for telling what we know.

I agree. The best thing to do is just not respond to his posts. Saying you will harass people is crossing the line. Just ignore this .... person. He'll get tired of being lonely and go away.
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Steve W.

There was a reason I put the word *harass* with stars around it, to set it apart from the other text. It was intended to be playful and an admission to my persistance! No "threats" were made.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

>>I agree. The best thing to do is just not respond to his posts. Saying you will harass people is crossing the line. Just ignore this .... person. He'll get tired of being lonely and go away.
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Steve W.

>>fine-enjoy your efforts and continue harassing people if that's what's important to you.
>>
>>But I'm not going away. I'm not going to be treated like a 2nd class citizen who knows nothing about the subject and I hope all the others follow suit.
>>
>>to everyone else-don't be intimidated by someone who has decided to "play God" and has threatened to harass us for telling what we know.

There was a reason I put the word *harass* with stars around it, to set it apart from the other text. It was intended to be playful and an admission to my persistance! No "threats" were made.

Please explain how you made a leap to you being "treated like a 2nd class citizen"... that baffles me. Barely anything I have said has been critical of you. I said, only as a devil's advocate, that 4 yrs on a varied diet isn't sufficient evidence to provide that mice alone are not detrimental to Easterns. I say that only because I have many people tell me that the Easterns I have taken care of that were fed only mice for 11yrs, is not sufficient evidence. Simply there is too low of a sample size stastically, to prove anything. And to note, I even thanked you for posting the information so it can be added to the growing collection of knowledge on the species.

When did I ever say you didn't know anything about hogs?

If I am playing god by asking for credible evidence, I'm guilty as sin. Thereby, you can also expect lightning to strike you at any time now! (Read it this way: ha ha, if he truly were god he could command the heavens and smite me with his forces if he wished! But he's not, just some humor to lighten up this discussion, apparently.)
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

>

I beg to differ. Trial and error does have its place. . .but not always in the lives of animals. I do not believe that all knowlege (emphasis on all knowledge) comes from personal experience and trial and error. Yes, there are many variables in feeding tactics and husbandry of all animals. I'll take the process of good scientific investigation with documented, testable results any day. . . over trial and error- to figure out the proper care for any of my creatures.

Kenny B.

Where do you think well documented scientific data comes from?
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Be excellent to each other...and Party on dude!

The Island of Socotra?

Sorry but i've never been there.....so i can't help you there but what i can do is give you something to think about. What do you think the word improvement means?
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Be excellent to each other...and Party on dude!

Eastern hognoses do indeed do well in captivity. You bring up a good point that is the theory for many people, that Easterns must be fed mice early in life (or as you claim from the very beginning) in order to be able to recognize mice as food later on. I would like to point out however that wild caught Easterns as adults are capable of being converted to mice without requiring scenting permanently.

Many longtime visitors to this forum will know that I am a strong advocate of a mouse only diet for Eastern hognoses for many reasons. One of them is the fact that so many people believe in wives tales and other statements that actually have no factual basis to them at all (another poster below displays this quite eloquently). Much of the evidence against a mouse diet is anecdotal in nature. Although I greatly appreciate you taking the time to create a post geared specifically towards other "certain herpetologists", it is important to point out that even at four years old, this snake does not entirely show that a mouse diet is detrimental. Especially in your case where yours has been supplemented with amphibians. Nonetheless, your example is yet another that can be filed towards the growing evidence of mice not being of detriment.

By the way, if you truly are interested in donating some of your snakes towards educational programming, I know just the place. http://www.valivingmuseum.org/
They are ALWAYS looking for Eastern hognoses to supplement their collection, because as you can imagine they are very popular with the curatorial staff, the educational staff, and of course the visitors. They have maintained Eastern hognoses for more than 10 years entirely on a mouse only diet. Let me know if you want any details.

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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Hi-I was waiting for a response from you actually-knowing your position-from sometime ago on removing amphibians from the environment and so on.

>>Eastern hognoses do indeed do well in captivity. You bring up a good point that is the theory for many people, that Easterns must be fed mice early in life (or as you claim from the very beginning) in order to be able to recognize mice as food later on. I would like to point out however that wild caught Easterns as adults are capable of being converted to mice without requiring scenting permanently. Although I greatly appreciate you taking the time to create a post geared specifically towards other "certain herpetologists", <

Actually I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to Chris Eckermans' arguement on why hognose are not capable of living on or even capturing and eating fish. I have proven this to be incorrect as well-with a very healthy male Western Hognose that chooses fish as it's primary diet. As a matter of principle I waited quite a while to test and varify my findings.

>>it is important to point out that even at four years old, this snake does not entirely show that a mouse diet is detrimental. Especially in your case where yours has been supplemented with amphibians. Nonetheless, your example is yet another that can be filed towards the growing evidence of mice not being of detriment. By the way, if you truly are interested in donating some of your snakes towards educational programming, I know just the place. http://www.valivingmuseum.org/ <

Are you saying that I have not donated animals to educational and environmental programs? I take offense at that-and will give you references to places that have my animals. If requested.

>They are ALWAYS looking for Eastern hognoses to supplement their collection, because as you can imagine they are very popular with the curatorial staff, the educational staff, and of course the visitors. They have maintained Eastern hognoses for more than 10 years entirely on a mouse only diet. Let me know if you want any details. <

If they meet the state requirements for transferring species and I choose to breed these 3 snakes again-I will be glad to donate a few to them.

You may feel free to e-mail me any details you like for me to examine.

You seem to think I'm a young pup-new at this sort of thing-these animals are 3rd generation CB animals. I believe that says something in itself about the experience I have with this species.

If you think for one moment that I posted this information in a flight of fancy or without researching by scientific method-you are sorely mistaken. I have waited quite sometime to post this information to this site because I knew there would arguements and opposition even with proof. I refuse to back down on something that I can now prove. (as I said above all of this information will be published on the new website-then you can argue with me-if you still feel it is necessary)

BTW-maintenance is much different than sucessful keeping and breeding. Maintenance means to me-keeping an animal alive but necessarily as healthy as it could be. Just food thought.

>Actually I wasn't referring to you.
I didn't think you were, I put those words in quotation marks because I knew who you WERE referring to.

> I was referring to Chris Eckermans' arguement on why hognose are not capable of living on or even capturing and eating fish. I have proven this to be incorrect as well-with a very healthy male Western Hognose that chooses fish as it's primary diet.
But this does not prove that WILD hognoses are capable of catching fish. I have experience with a piscivorous Eastern hognose as well, so I have no doubts about their affinity for fish.

>Are you saying that I have not donated animals to educational and environmental programs? I take offense at that-and will give you references to places that have my animals. If requested.

Perhaps the word "truly" threw you off, but I was merely providing another destination for future progeny of your hognoses, and a source that would gladly accept them. Remember, when it comes to pure text, with no inflection, some things don't always sound as bad as you may take them No references are needed!

>You seem to think I'm a young pup-new at this sort of thing
The very nature of an Internet forum creates a revolving door of new people, and I can't even keep up with people who post on a somewhat regular basis. You and I are completely anonymous, and it is perfectly reasonable to assume that you may not have all of the background information. How was I supposed to know that you have been lurking, and actually awaiting my response?

Also, you reference research that you have conducted on eastern hognoses. Can you clue us in as to the nature of this research? I have assembled a large collection of Heterodon scientific literature and I am always looking for more.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

> I was referring to Chris Eckermans' arguement on why hognose are not capable of living on or even capturing and eating fish. I have proven this to be incorrect as well-with a very healthy male Western Hognose that chooses fish as it's primary diet.

>>>But this does not prove that WILD hognoses are capable of catching fish. I have experience with a piscivorous Eastern hognose as well, so I have no doubts about their affinity for fish. You and I are completely anonymous, and it is perfectly reasonable to assume that you may not have all of the background information. How was I supposed to know that you have been lurking, and actually awaiting my response? >>Also, you reference research that you have conducted on eastern hognoses. Can you clue us in as to the nature of this research? I have assembled a large collection of Heterodon scientific literature and I am always looking for more.