Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi All,

Luna's calcium is fine (checked today), she has gained 8g since she laid on May 5th so I am skipping food every other day. Her thirst has also subsided. She got about 2 hours of sun today and a shower.

I think I want to lower her basking temp a bit and wonder the lowest I can safely go. Even on warm days here it cools off quite a bit at night so there should be no problem getting a 10 degree drop. She will be going out more often now and figure she will get much of her basking in outside.

thanks,
lele
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0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

What are your night time temps now? I wouldn't think low 60's would do any harm and I think I read somewhere that upper 50's is tolerable for outdoor chams. Cooler and dryer might act as a cool off period.

her max/min for the last 24 hours is 85/66. But the 85 is a bit low since I had the lights turned off for several hours while we were at the vet and when she was outside. It's more like 93/66.

If I keep her daytime basking at 80-85 is that sufficient for digestion and other processes? I think next November I may go for much lower temps and se if I can keep her from developing that December clutch.
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

Carlton and Lele,

Outdoor chams (at least those housed outdoors on a regular basis) can easily take lower temperatures than some may think. I keep my chameleons outdoors for about 3 months of the year, day and night. I do not throw them out into it suddenly, however, but instead adjust them to the differing temperaturs at first. I only breed carpets and veileds, and keep panthers. Of course each species is different. I am in Pennsylvania, and my chameleons have been outdoors the past 3 days on their auto-misters already. I am slowly integrating them back to the outside, but our weather is not stable enough for permanent outdoor residency yet. Anyway, getting off topic... All three species do just fine with lows around 50F at night, and have been outdoors last year when temps. dropped down to 40F on some occasions. If the lows are around 50F at night and highs at least 68-70F during the day, then I feel comfortable knowing they'll be safe.

Lele, I don't think I'd use less than a 60 watt basking bulb myself for an adult veiled, but everyone has differing experience which may suit your needs more appropriately. Very happy to hear that Luna is doing so much better.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

thanks for the info. I use a 60w but it is the actual basking temp (temp on her basking branch) that I am trying to figure out. Even outdoors, if it is 70 degrees the sun intensity while basking would be much higher. I guess I am just looking for the lowest safe temp that she can digest and manage other bodily functions.

She will be spending her days outside, too but she is always tucked in nice and safe indoors at night

lele
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

Hi lele,
I was hoping that the calcitonin shot would give Luna another
chance...and maybe it has? I'm glad to hear that her calcium
levels are fine and that her thirst has subsided. (Just want to
mention it...all of my veiled females seem to be very thirsty
just before they lay the eggs.)

I have been working on this information for quite a while
now....and I hope some of it will still provide you with
"food for thought" for Luna.

I don't want to tell you (or anyone who reads this post) that
"this is the way you should do things". I would feel terrible
if Luna died because you followed what I said. What I'm telling
you in this post is what seems to work for me....but even if you
follow it exactly, there will still be differences in the water
I use compared to yours (mineral content/hard water vs soft
water vs distilled water, etc. and salt content in softened
water, for instance, etc.)...differences in the hydration
requirements (due to the temperature/humidity of the area you
live in)...differences in what the insects are fed before
we get them...differences in caging set-ups (screen or part
screen, etc.)...differences that relate to where we live
(whether they can be outside, climate of the area you live in,
etc.) just to mention a few things...all of which can still
upset the "package"...so you have to strike your own balance.

Part of what I'm talking about is expressed in the following
quote...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2002/may2002/nutrition/nutrition_may_02.html
"From one breeder to another - One everlasting observation, as
true today as in the earlier decades of chameleon keeping, is
the too-frequent inability to successfully transfer
husbandry techniques, including recipes for calcium
supplementation. One breeder will use a specific form of
calcium or schedule for supplementation very successfully, yet
it fails in the hands of others. The failure is usually due to
one of two scenarios: (1) the myriad of factors affecting
calcium balance are not identical in the two systems; or
(2) the chameleons kept successfully are models of
adaptation. Examples of this latter scenario include breeders
that rely on direct sunlight only for all needed vitamin
D3, and breeders that rely on specific prey (and diets for prey) only
for all needed calcium. What succeeds in South Florida rarely
works in Maine. Moreover, differences in calcium systems have
been noted between species, blood-lines within species, and more.
Much of the difference relates to metabolic rate."
---------
I live in a cold climate where the chameleons can't get outside
much. Where I live is very dry in the winter inside the
house....and can be quite humid in the summer.

I use a UV light (Repti-sun 5.0) and because my chameleons get
virtually no sunlight, the adults get crickets
dusted with RepCal calcium several times a month and with
RepCal calcium with D3 twice a month. My crickets are well
gutloaded with an assortment of greens and veggies mainly.
I also use Herptivite twice a month and feed all my other
food-insects well before feeding them to the chameleons. I
don't supplement/dust with anything else as a rule. I have used
liquid calcium gluconate once in a while, when I thought there
was a very good reason to use it. Feeding my veileds this way,
they don't show any signs of MBD...and most of them live good
ong lives...as I've said before. If I lived in an area where
the chameleons could be outside most of the year, I would not
follow this method of dusting/supplementing. It would need to
be altered.

I don't know what you plan to do concerning supplements now with
Luna...but if you started using a straight vitamin D3 product
(as you talked about in one of your posts to the forum), how
would you know if you are overdosing her or not? You are already
giving her vitamin D in other forms...would you stop them? I
don't know of any study that gives the "daily requirement" of
vitamin D for chameleons.

You said..."since she is only eating Repta-aid (about 3cc 2x/day
if I am lucky) can I keep her basking temps a little lower so
she does not dehydrate as much (the dry NH air is the biggest
culprit)".

Concerning Repta-aid...
I see that Repta-aid seems to contain a lot of good
ingredients...egg, kelp, spriulina, pollen, etc. It also vitamin
A acetate, which I believe is a preformed source. Egg
(one of repta-aid's ingredients) also contains vitamins D and A.
Pollen (another ingredient of repta-aid) contains vitamin A and
vitamin D too. I didn't check out all of the ingredients for
their vitamin A and D...its too time consuming. I don't
know how much vitamin A is in Repta-aid in total...or how much
of it is preformed...nor do I know how much vitamin D Repta-aid
contains...but it does contain some in the ingredients listed in
its content. It also contains calcium (Ca 1.2:1). Again, how
do you know that Luna is not already getting the "daily
requirement" for a chameleon of both vitamin D and A
with what you are already giving her? Or that she is getting too
much or too little of some which could be causing her bone
problems?

For those of you who don't have Repta-aid, here are the
ingredients...
"Egg product, wheat flour, starch, isolated soy flour, corn oil,
dried brewers yeast, dried kelp, calcium carbonate, dicalcium
phosphate, pollen, dextrose, sodium chloride, potassium sorbate,
dl-methionine, lecithin, choline chloride supplement, potassium
chloride, spirulina, manganese sulfate, mixed natural
tocopherols (antioxidant), zinc sulfate, magnesium oxide,
ascorbic acid, beta carotene supplement, niacin, vitamin E
supplement, copper sulfate, vitamin B12 supplement,
vitamin A acetate, calcium pantothenate, vitamin D3 supplement,
pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite complex,
riboflavin, thiamine mononitrate, ethylene diamine dihydriodide,
biotin supplement, folic acid, sodium selenite."

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude protein 28%, carbohydrate 37%, crude fat 20%, crude fiber
1.5%, moisture 10%, calcium 0.85%, phosphorus 0.7%, Ca 1.2:1,
kcal/g 4.4."

Its a shame that you have the same problem as me concerning
getting her outside..at least if you could get her outside,
the amount of vitamin D she would end up with inside her should
to be self-limiting.

You also said that in spite of showers, she becomes very
dehydrated. What symptoms of dehydration is she showing besides
the sunken eyes?

Read the next sections after the one quoted below as well as the
quote...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2002/nov2002/nutrition/nutrition_nov_02.html
"Because reptile kidneys lack a structure termed the loop of
Henle, urine cannot be concentrated when water intake is low or
water loss high. Instead, complete kidney units - termed
nephrons -- shut down in succession until water balance is
restored. Urine is resorbed from the distal tubules (under
control of vasotocin), cloaca, and bladder. The dynamics relate
to many factors, including status of potassium and
sodium, acid-base balance, metabolic rate, and corticosteroid
(stress)levels."

I'm glad that I've never had a gravid veiled not drink....and
most of mine eat right up to the day they lay their eggs too!
Maybe its because my clutches are not large (20 to 25 usually)?

I mist and water my adult veileds well once a day (twice in the
summertime) and I run a dripper on them everyday. IMHO hydration
is very important in the function of the kidneys and the
digestion processes in a chameleon....and I wouldn't want to
"short-change" mine in the area of hydration. IMHO the
temperature that chameleons are kept at and the humidity in the
area of the world where they are being kept will have an affect
on the amount of water that they need to take in to stay hydrated....to
some extent, just like it does us.

Here's some information on hypohydration and dehydration in
chameleons...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2002/nov2002/nutrition/nutrition_nov_02.html
"Uricotelic species such as chameleons require large amounts of
water to sustain normal excretion, and dehydration in
these species may result in urinary stasis, uricemia, and gout
(more on this in a future column)."

You said..."what would be the shortest day length I can give
her so she can sleep more?"

Why do you want Luna to sleep more?

You said..."I am told that not feeding as much will decrease
frequency and clutch size but I have almost no time to do that.
After she lays I let her eat what she wants to get her strength
and nutrition up. Any suggestions there?"

It is hard to know when to stop feeding a veiled female after
she has laid her eggs. They always seem to be "begging" for food.
We, of course, want them to get back into good condition.

In order to help my veiled females recover from egglaying, I
feed them well for a day or two after they have laid their eggs
and then they are slowly cut back until they are well into
producing eggs again. I don't starve them, I just don't overfeed
them. When I'm sure they are producing the next batch of eggs
(another hard thing to determine), the food is increased but
only a little bit. I also keep my females slightly cooler than
the males are kept for most of the year. The temperature of my
females' cages (when the weather allows) is in the high 70's to
the low 80's in the warmest part of the cage. I'm at the mercy
of the weather in the summer since I have no airconditioner in
the area where the lizards are kept. I have female
veileds that are about 3 years old that have never been mated
and never produced even one clutch the way that I keep them.

You said you "wonder the lowest I can safely go" is
temperature-wise. I don't keep mine any lower than what I've
mentioned above. I don't know if its possible or not to go
lower....but I have no need to.

To me the cooler temperature goes along with controlled feeding.
It has to be in balance...warm enough that the chameleon is
still able to digest its food, but its not so warm that its
digesting it too fast and becomes hungry too soon. It
takes practice/experience to limit the food intake and the
temperature to achieve this balance. To quote from the site
below..."This is a challenging and often daunting task".

Here's a site that talks about limiting egg formation by
limiting food...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2002/march2002/pages/nutrition.html
"concerns about overweight chameleons center on effects of high
calorie intakes on egg production in females. We'll cover this
in detail in future columns. For now, know that the primary
nutritional goals of some chameleon breeders is to find ways
to limit (excessive) egg formation by limiting calorie intake,
while finding ways to meet metabolic demands once eggs have
been formed. This is a challenging and often daunting
task, but key to future chameleon herpetoculture".

You said..."Would breeding her (sorry, some folks will freak out
about this, but I would not keep the eggs, also not sure where I would
find a male cham) make any difference - hormonally?"

I don't know about hormonally...but I do think that laying ferile
eggs will be a little harder on her due to the eggs' increased
size and perhaps the amount of nutrients put into them. I've
never found that breeding mine ever slowed them down on the egg
production and due to retained sperm...they would produce another
clutch of fertile and infertile eggs soon after the clutch that
they were bred for.

Re: egg size...in my experience, infertile eggs are smaller and
have a different look to them than fertile eggs. I would compare
the size of infertile eggs to the size of those little
fancy-flavored jellybeans and the fertile ones to the size of
the "regular" jellybeans...or slightly larger.

In one post, you said "I always wondered if I could get her to
brumate like the beardies"...I would say that IF it happens with
veileds in the wild, then it would be okay....BUT I don't know
if they would brumate in the wild. They may aestivate
(summer rest) in the wild.

Re: seasonal temperatures...all of my veileds are kept cooler in
the winter than in the summer...but its not what I would call a
brumation....just a seasonal change. They do eat less when this
seasonal change in temperatures occurs....but as I said before,
temperature and rate of digestion have a relationship so it
stands to reason that they would eat less then.

When truly brumating reptiles (like tortoises and uromastyx,
etc.) you have to know what you are doing. Generally the stomach
has to be empty first, there have to be good fat stores and the
reptile has to be in excellent condition in order to survive.
The temperature has to be lowered slowly. Temperature that you
brumate them at is also important because if they are too cold
they could die and if they are too warm, they will use up their
fat stores too quickly. In the wild animals can move to a place
that they find suitable for brumating and hibernatng...but in
the cage, their choices are limited to what we provide.

Reedialyte...can't find a breakdown on it. Do you know how
much vitamin A, D3 and calcium...if any....are in it or its
ingredients?

One more site.......
If the following is true, then it doesn't it make more sense to
gutload rather than supplement? (N.B. - I'm not saying I agree
that too much calcium supplementation causes egg binding.)
http://www.martinsreptiles.co.uk/ukchams/calciummbdd3.htm#visual
"Too much calcium by supplementation can cause egg binding
whereas dietary calcium take up tends to be better regulated by
the chameleon."

Lele...I'm worried at the amount of supplementation that you do
with Luna....just my own feelings. I know how hard you are
working to try to do what will make her healthy. I've told you
what I do with mine (above) and under what conditions I
keep mine...and that what I do works for me....but as I said
above, you have to strike your own balance for Luna...and it
isn't easy (as you know). Its taken me a long time to get my
veileds to the point that they are at now....living fairly long
lives, with a good hatching rate, good survival rate, etc.
I hope that you can get it all figured out too!

Again to all of you who read this....the information about my
own set-up is what works for me where I live and in my
situation...but perhaps some of this will help you strike your
own balance. Also, I'm not a vet and I will never consider
myself an expert (there's too much left to learn about
chameleons).

(Sorry about this long-winded post...but I tried to cover as
much as I could.

I mean I am on here more often than you but when you show up - you speak volumes, girl! LOL!!!

I copied and pasted your post into a doc. to print out and read - to much to take in online. I will be starting a kinyonga file for all the info you have been so generaous about researching and sharing! I did scan it and the one place you quoted me about wanting her to sleep more was from an older post back in December. I think it was after she laid and I was just trying ot help her "heal." I will read it and post or email - thanks again!

lele
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

Hi Lele!
Hmm...do I have a job?? Well with all the critters and people to
look after around here I don't have time for a "real" job!

Sorry about my reply being "volumes"....but every time I
was just ready to submit my reply, there was another post from
you and I added that to the list...so as you noticed (concerning
the question about why you wanted her to sleep) some of the
questions/comments did come from your previous posts!

I'm sure it won't be a quick job to read it all!
Sorry....I really did it just to keep you off line for a while!
(evil grin)

Hmm...a kinyonga file, eh?? Now I feel important! LOL!

I just hope that all works out for Luna so Lele can stop worrying.
(Oops...forgot chameleon keepers can never stop worrying. These
critters give us little reason not to worry, eh?) I have quite a few
different reptiles, but none of the rest make me worry as much as
the chameleons, and of all my visits to vets, chameleons top the
list by far in that area too. Makes me wonder for one brief
moment why I keep them!

I think Lele was saying that she's quite impressed (as are the rest of us lurkers) at the sheer volume and research involved in your posts. Not a complaint by any stretch of the imagination, rather a compliment and a 'thank you' for the time it takes to post such a well constructed and intelligent post.
Or ya, she might just be taking cheap shots! LOL
-----
Victor Gomez
gomezvi@yahoo.com

I didn't take what Lele said as cheap shots....and I hope nobody
(including Lele) took what I said in my reply to her about
having a job as cheap shots either. I was just kidding!

I often get carried away with researching a topic when its a
topic that I'm interested in finding out more about
myself....and with chameleons, I'm always interested in learning
more! Can't help myself!

Sometimes I hesitate to post information in case I lead someone
astray. I try not to tell people that they "have" to do things...
but rather what I do that works for me. When I post links to
sites I hope people will read them and decide for themselves
if the information is valid or not.

Thanks for the compliments about my posts! (Blush, blush.) I hope
some of it is helpful!

Victor is like my cyber big brother (even if I am older he still watches out for me )
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

me - take cheap shots? shame on you! It is nice to have you back here sticking up for me, anyway. The other's have long deserted me - or maybe you just want me for my good 6-legged and crawley deals (wink, wink)
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info

Don;t apologize! You have been VERY helpful during my recent trials with Miss Luna!
You will be pleased to know that she ate 5 silkies, some strawberry and zucchini pieces today (nothing yesterday). As hard as this every other day thing is for ME I think it will be better for both of us all the way around. We will continue to monitor her Ca. Last year she laid another cluthc in July. If I decide to mate her (for hormonal reasons - hers, not mine lol!) I would do it for her spring clutch as I will try to avoid her December clutch altogether.

It is only when I am not stressing and worrying about her that i realize how much I do! Right now I am just thoroughly enjoying her, Darwin and all my other 4, 6 & 8 leggers! Nice feeling
-----
0.1 Veiled - Luna
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.3 Mad. Hissers (2 died ;(
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha

Chameleon Help & Resource Info