Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a petstore sav. I was amazed to see it was still breathing. After talking to the owner, I was informed that they have a reptile "Expert" working there and the lizard is just sleeping. he offered to sell it to me.

Scott

-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

I have seen that all too often. Usually among a bin holding about 50-100 more.

I am just glad I am not employed there. My wife went off and had everyones undivided attention. I was waiting for thr cops to show up and escort us from the store. Customers were stopping to see what all the screaming was about and I just pointed to the cage, and asked,"Do you want to buy animals from someone that does this?"

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

np

SORRY

Then who would take care of Fluffy and Wizard?
Maybe the humane society wil do something, my wife sent them the store name and the pic and date taken. She would have torched the place if it wasn't for all the animals still alive.

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

That is appalling, but unfortunately, very common. I have found our humane society to be fairly worthless. There is a shop I reported numerous times and nothing changes. On my first visit there, I had a uro die in my hands when I was forcing them to change the cage while I supervised. Baby monitors were in 12x12 cubes, no basking lights, no hides, etc. I got the manager that time and again they promised to change. When I called the humane society again, they said they would stop in but there wee not a lot of regulations for pet shops. I was (in a very small part) successful in having one large pet shop closed with my constant visits and complaints. Many others were involved and eventually the police came and confiscated all the animals and locked the place up. The sad part is for every animal that dies there will be two to replace it. At least you made an effort.

Pam

Yes, you guys, all of you. hahahahahahaha seriously.

When you see something like that, you get mad and all righious. What do you think happens when they import, tens of thousands?????????????

Yet, most of you have supported the very system that causes that. Your happy and even proud, cause you have a nice Sav or nile or water, or even blackthroat, yet you are aware that 99% of the ones imported(stolen from mama nature) will end up like that. Some sooner, some a little later. Yet, your mad when you see the one.

One clear sign of how smart many of you are, is, you question and attack and research all things about husbandry(getting things perfect) and then you simply believe an exporter, or dealer or pet shop, that these animals are CB or FM(farm raised) You do understand, there are no farms or breeding facilities. Some are caught on farms, does that count? You will believe that to the death, yet doubt everything else, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm supporting the problem.

We (the forumites) have discussed that until we are blue in the face. Yet, you still support it. Hmmmmmmmm who to smack, the drug dealer or the drug user. In this case, most of you are the users.

I am glad you saw it, I am glad you posted it for many more to see, I hope your hurt and I hope my post makes it hurt more and I do not care if your mad at me.

The point is, your supporting this, and your support will cause this to happen over and over and over(times many thousand a year)

The reality is, a living animal(Cheap imported reptiles) are a commodity, they are cheap and used as a leader to buy other products. A living animal should not be a leader for other products, its backwards. Its kinda like selling cars cheap in order for you to buy tires(and fuel) OK now I am getting crazy.

The reality is still simple, do something about the problem if you care so much. I tried, you know, I produced Argus crosses, they are great, they are not expensive, they are just not $29.95 so they are not filling everyones cages.

Make it clear, I do not support the government making laws, they do not have the beans to do so. They will never get it right.

I do not support banning all imports, what the government would do.

I support education, except, its not working, most of you are educated about the problem, yet you still support it.

I do wonder if the price of Savs was $299.50, how many would be imported?????? how many would be held in pet shops, just in case someone wants to buy them. How many of you would have them????? I wonder what the difference of one decimal point makes?

So, explain to me, how I am so wrong(while doing so, keep looking at that pic) Explain to me, how I do not understand anything(I already know that) And explain to me how you can get so mad at something you support. Please understand, this is indeed covered under the TOS, of this forum(conservation) So do not attempt to delete.

I did think if the public was offered a comparable product(crosses) it would have some positive effect, but of course I was wrong. Funny thing happened on the way to the forum, now I keep lots of crosses, not for anyother hardcase reason, they are just fun. U-alls turn, FR

PS, the term you and u-alls, and your, does not refer to any one single person, its a term aimed at you, youesesss, u-all, you know, to whom it may apply.

pps, I have and had friends that use/used drugs, but I do not support that. I have and had friends that support wild caught mistreated monitors, yet I do not support that either. So don't think it has anything to do with me liking or disliking people. Its merely one of the many contradictions of humans.

Ive imported for years, ive never seen any come in like that. Perhaps my suppliers were better then average.

Reminder: That animal could have had some medical problems too, how were the other animals in the store? I agree,that animal needed lots of help a long time ago.

Maybe he was just sleeping?

I've been in the reptile business for decades, and have many wonderful friends that are/were importers. Some were great, some were good and yes, some even sucked.

I know how all of you want it to be about the people but its not, NO matter how nice you are and how lucky or good or whatever you are. The problem still exsists. 99% of the Savs and of all imports are dead within a year.

Please understand, true captive hatched here in the states only fair slightly better. Maybe 40% live past the first year(sad state of husbandry)

The sad part remains, when thousands are stacked on top of eachother, and sold for $4.50 to $10.00, there is not real motivation to learn or bother to take care of them. Sad but true. FR

Yes Frank, I am one of thems. I have a few savs, a blackthroat and one CB monitor, that would be the argus.
I get upset anytime I see any animal treated like this, be it a spider, a dog, cat or what ever. Maybe I should join PETA. Hahaha
I saw this critter when they first got it. It was in much better shape and I made suggestions to the reptile "Expert". No changes were made. I don't own the store or the animal in the pic so there wasn't really much I could do. The humane society here could care less about a lizard or a snake. Now if they kept the cats, dogs and birds like this, they would be shut down.

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Cat jumped into my Salvator enclosure, his name was "sandpaper". I didnt see the monitor eat it, but i did see the fluff ball in the stool 3-4 days later.

My reply was to make you think again. Of course there is a problem and WE all of us are part of the problem.

I really think one of the reasons we get so mad when we see monitors tortured(like your pic) is because we are indeed part of the problem.

Being a little tiny bit older, I was around when all sorts of animals were treated the very same way. They were common and cheap, so they were kept in stacks. This included chimps and elephants(at Fla, importers) More recently, it was with Parrot and parrot type birds. They were stuff by the dozens in little boxes, with lots of dead ones on arrival and such. Very much the same. Then dwindling numbers and laws took effect. Now they are treated with much more respect(they always deserved it) They were kept in horrible conditions at pet shops too. But again as soon as the price went up, so did the level of care.

Remember, I have always enjoyed you and your posts and I will continue to. Thanks FR

No harm, no foul. I never get offened by words, especialy when they are true.
I remember when I was at Ft. Lewis in the early 80's someone brought in a bunch of Okinawain tree lizards. Noone knew how to care for them and they all died that I know of. I tried to help since I used to catch them and keep them when I was a youngster living in Okinawa. They were all too busy reading books and trying what they thought would work. Everyone insisted on feeding them bugs even when I tried to tell them they eat leaves and berries.
I now see the same thing with monitors. They come in bad shape, sold for cheap prices to unknowing people and things go down hill. I see people like JCMonitor having a hard time selling CB savs because people would rather buy cheap. They don't see the world like we do. You get what you pay for.
I am not as old as you, and lack your experience with lizards, but I have been around and seen alot.
I have never accually bought a sav, unless you count shipping cost. They were all given to me for one reason or another.

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Frank, I have utmost respect for you. Sure we may be part of the problem. I have wild caught monitors. I have them because I enjoy them and I take great pride in seeing them grow and be active. I don't care about breeding them right now. I don't care in having the most exotic type. I don't care about raising them and making money with them. All I want from my monitors is the enjoyment of keeping them and the knowledge gained from them.

We (the keepers that care) love monitors and hate to see them kept the way most pet shops seem to. There is something wrong with the industry. I don't necessarily think the caring keepers are the problem. There is a problem, but I don't know how to fix it.

Saying keepers are the problem is like saying that everyone with kids is the problem that is abused children.

I do agree that if they cost more (like parrots do) then they would be kept better. This is because they are not disposable anymore, like you have implied.

The problem seems to be human greed. And we call the monitors animals!!!
-----
Ed

These heat lamps make my electric bill to high.

What does greed have to do with this? we are talking about the other end of the scale.

The problem is not about why or what you think of your monitors. The problem is, we keep supporting the purchase of throw-a-way reptiles.

Even teaching good husbandry has sorta backfired. Instead of simply dying, many have been raised up and thrown away. The rescue groups will verify this. If fact, the reason I chose ackies was because of this. I was building naturalistic enclosures for this Pet shop chain, and would hang out with a friend who owns a huge reptile shop. While I was there, all these people brought in adult savs(after they had raised them from babies) and traded them back for a baby. Then the poor adults were thrown in with other adults and were totally freaked. So I thought maybe the world needed a small monitor that does not grow up. It partly worked, but it did not help the problem of mass imported savs, as the numbers are as high as ever. FR

what Frank stated about us being part of the problem has been bothering me for a long while now. like many others I started out with a sav. I have had this guy for many years now and I still enjoy every second of caring for him. I have been looking for a female for him for the past year,but I've been holding out for a true captive born female... but as everyone knows there is pretty much no such thing. I have found many adult sized female savs for sale over this year but I just cannot bring myself to buy one of these because I know that if I do I am supporting a system that causes so many of these animals that I love to die each year. I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place; I only want a true captive born sav- of which there are none, but if I don't find a mate the sav I already have is destined to live a terrible solitary life.

It is a horrible problem. The worst part is that there is not much that we can do about $10 monitors being sold every weekend at shows. The last Exotic animal show that I went to was pretty bad. Everyone there had baby ball pythons and/or baby savs. My wife got a python (her 3rd in the house) and I am sure it will grow to be a healthy adult. I wish I could say the same for the other animals at the show.

I see the savs, niles, and balls crammed in little tanks with no water or heat. One vendor has dead savs in their tank. I know this happens every weekend at numerous cities all over the country. Places like Petsmart are no better. I can save the ones I have, but that is all I can do. I know everyone here feels the same way.
-----
Ed

These heat lamps make my electric bill to high.

Hey!!! I am offended by that remark, no such thing as true captive bred, what are mine ???? hahahaha just kidding. Well I have two females left from that clutch in 04 but they are still babies only 7 months old, no where near ready for your older male, but perhaps in a few months and a couple more inches it could work out for you

Keep an eye out for this years clutches, my female is pumping eggs out like crazy, I just haven't posted anything new cause it's like been there done that now. Plus five months give or take to hatch not worth getting everyone in a tizzy. I will post new picts of these cb babies later this week. Just been so busy, everything has bred; the corns, the balls, the savs, the leopards, blah blah it's just a little old breeder room. Flooded with offspring this year

Cheers,
JC

I agree that the problem is respect and value- namely monitors dont get/have any. The state of reptile husbandry is scary and we are all part of the problem.When was the last time you picked up an aquarium hobby magazine and saw beautifull fish in an aquarium with one of those treasure chests that opens and closes with a tiny diver next to it circa 1970? Yet the equivelant is in our hobby mags each month!What gives?Dont we care about our animals? go to a reptile show for your answer.At one time I had 14 dumerils monitors(all captive bred!) and thought about breeding large #'s and selling them for the price of imports-thinking I could eliminate the need for w.c but I soon realized this would all but doom the monitors I produced to a slow death at best and would rob them of the possibility of having any real "value".So what to do? In my opinion build better enclosures!I should be able to post some pictures of my set-ups next week - I'm a little late to the game on this computer thing and still learning the photo thing but will post some soon.got to get back to work.
Cheers B.A