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Responsible keeping help

goini04 May 11, 2005 11:45 AM

Hello everyone,

I am currently looking for any type of guides on keeping venomous snakes, draft codes for responsible keeping, and lists possibly of tools that should be within the owners arsenal. I am using this as information to promote responsible keeping of dangerous reptiles (well animals in general). I dont like the idea of people keeping without experience and proper knowledge of the animals in which they wish to keep. I would like to get something together as resources for these people to help them understand the seriousness of owning dangerous exotic pets.

Any help or articles,websites, or your own personal comments that you dont mind me sharing would be great!!

Thanks in advance
chris

Replies (15)

bachman May 11, 2005 04:45 PM

to hear somebody actually trying to help beginning keepers instead of telling them off. I'm not a beginner, just a keeper who's tired of all the crap we have to endore dayafter day.

Good luck, any ?'s, you can gladly email me (I'm not much of a fan of these forums).
-----
Chad Bachman

goini04 May 11, 2005 07:32 PM

Hi,

Thank you for the response. Personally I am not a keeper of "hots". Now granted, if I lived in a place where they were permitted, and I had the experience necessary I might consider it. However, I dont consider myself near qualified to take on the challenge of owning venomous snakes. I am primarily a crocodilian keeper. The same general rules apply to owning them. The main differences are that I most likely wont die from a single bite from one of them. I might lose my hand or my arm, but I will still be alive, LOL. Thank you for the offer of your help and I will contact you within a day or two to ask some questions.

Thanks again!!

azatrox May 11, 2005 06:51 PM

In terms of protocols for keeping venomous species (regardless of the species), I do believe there are some fundamental necessities. Regardless of what one diesires to keep, I belive a universal respect is required....these animals can kill you and as such serious consideration should be given to this fact prior to the acquisition of any animals.

That being said, the "rules" are going to vary depending upon which animals one keeps....Obviously a Gaboon viper acts very differently than a black mamba, and as such one's tools and methods must adjust accordingly. If one thinks that they can easily keep elapids after experience with crotalids, one might be in for a rude awakening, and vice versa.

Above all else, COMMON SENSE goes far in venomous snake keeping, and unfortunately this isn't a trait that one an get from a license or class....If one does not have the requisite knowledge and experience, then IMO one has no business owning these animals until it is acquired.....Working with anothers'animals to learn behavioral characteristics under supervision goes far in acqainting one with the quirks of a given species and what to do when things "don't go as planned"......

-AzAtrox

goini04 May 11, 2005 07:40 PM

Azatrox,

Thank you for your reply. Would you mind if I was to quote your statement for my project? You provided some very useful and informative information. I would like to provide people a positive outlook of the animals themselves, but inform them of the many dangers that are involved with keeping them in captivity. I live in Ohio, and around here all I see are people that dont know what they are getting themselves into. We dont have quite as many venomous snakes to deal with here, but at the same time they are still considered a danger to the keepers and those around the keeper, so therefore need to be taken into consideration as well. Would you happen to know of a list of tools that are available for handling as well as the primary tools that EVERY hot keeper should have? That would be really helpful.

Thanks again!!
chris

azatrox May 12, 2005 12:08 AM

Sure, you can quote me as much as you'd like. As far as "tools no hot keeper should be without" I've compied a list of things that I would never dream of keeping my venomous snakes without.

1) Basic snake hooks of varying sizes- depending on whether you're dealing with a full grown monocled cobra or a juvenile saw scaled viper, you definitely need a snake hook of corresponding size. You can basically move snakes around with these as the snakes will balance on them and can be transported for cage cleaning, general maintenance, etc. One word of caution...Some species "hook" much better than others, and having a snake that will simply refuse to be "hooked" can be a nerve-racking experience as well a frustrating one. With a bit of patience, I've found that most of mine will eventually submit to being "hooked". The use of two hooks (supporting the snakes' weight) may be necessary for especially large/bulky snakes (i.e. Gaboon vipers, Eastern diamondbacks) in order to prevent spinal injury to the snake.

2) Snake tongs or "Gentle Giants"- These are tools where the snake can actually be grasped and manipulated (rather than simply lifted up and left to balance) similar (in some respects) to snake hooks. Some keepers swear by these things, while others don't like them. With the species I work with (native Arizona crotalids) I find them of limited use, as most crotalids can be "hooked"...However, there's always that snake that won't allow itself to be "hooked"....Keepers of elapids (due to their generally faster movements) may/may not find these tools more useful than the standard hook.

3) Shift boxes- For some species, (mambas and other fast moving highly venomous species) a shift box can be essential. Basically, it is a hidebox within the animals' enclosure that can be locked/secured when the snake is hiding inside of it, thus allowing it to be removed from the enclosure without direct contact between the snake/keeper. For large and aggressive venomous snakes, I wouldn't consider keeping them without a good shift box inside their enclosure.

4) Appropriately sized feeding forceps- These are long "tweezers" that can be used to feed venomous snakes from a distance. They can also be used anytime it becomes necessary to remove something from an animals' enclosure and you (obviously) don't want to stick your hand inside it. A simply invaluable tool for most venomous snakes. They must be appropriately sized, as you wouldn't use 9 inch forceps when working with a 4 ft. rattlesnake.

5) Buckets and/or other temporary holding receptacles- For species where a shift box is not used/preferred, a simple bucket or other temporary holding receptacle can be used to contain the snake while cage cleaning. Simply "hook" the snake, place it inside and secure it with a secure lid. Then, do your cage maintenance and transfer the snake back into it's enclosure. Care must be taken here to select a receptacle with sufficient depth so as to avoid the strike of an agitated animal when opening the bucket.

6) Probing tubes, probes- For keepers that breed these animals, probes are used to determine the sex of animals. I won't get into how to use them (different topic) but used correctly, they are the most reliable way of determining the sex of a snake. The tubes on the other hand can also (in addition to "sexing" be used anytime one needs to perform any sort of medical treatment on a venomous snake. This works by encouraging the snake to crawl inside of the tube and grasping the rear portion of the snake so that it cannot back up inside the tube. The tube prevents the snake from "turning around", and one can work with the snake in relative safety. Some tubes have holes along their length to allow for injections, removal of unshed eyecaps, etc.

*7)* Locks, locks and more locks!- EVERY single enclosure that houses a venomous snake should be locked and secured! I prefer padlocks, but others may use other methods to ensure that the snake cannot escape it's enclosure. If the enclosure were to fall, it needs to maintain it's integrity and prevent the snake from escaping. One may also consider using plexiglass instead of regular glass for venomous snake enclosures due to it's superior "unbreak-ability" qualities in the event of a fall.

8) A good head and calm emotional state- ABSOLUTE necessities!!!! Perhaps more so than any other listed, this is a MAJOR prerequisite. It may seem silly to say, but before working with a venomous snake one MUST be free of all alcohol and other intoxicating substances. Not only can these substnces impair judgement, but in the event of a bite they can be exacerbating factors in the severity of the bite (i.e. alcohol dialates blood vessels, increasing the rate at which venom can spread throughout one's system.) One must be responsible in all that one does with these creatures, as these creatures have perfected the art of killing other creatures (oneself included). I CANNOT stress this enough!!! One MUST be of a rational, responsible and knowledgeable before one works with ANY venomous snake!

9) An "action plan" in case of a bite-Know the closest medical facility to you, AND the closest facility that keeps antivenom on hand. This is ESPECIALLY important if one is keeping exotic species of venomous snakes, as no one wants to find out that no medical facility/zoo stocks the antivenom for the puff adder they were just bitten by! Always know exactly what you are going to do in the event of a bite, and be prepared to follow through with it should the most unfortunate happen. Practice your routine so that if a bite does occur, you won't have to think about what to do or where to go....Not only does this calm one down because they know exactly what to do and where to go, it can significantly cut down on transport time between places and thus allow for earlier treatment of a bite. A bite treated early is alays easier to manage than a bite treated later.

Ok, I didn't realize how long this became.....You can quote the entire thing if you'd like. Hope this helps!

-AzAtrox

goini04 May 12, 2005 07:25 AM

I really appreciate the time you took to provide that information. That should really help alot. The "Common Sense" part is where most keepers here in Ohio are going to have a problem, LOL. Thanks a bunch for the help, and if you are ever considering the ownership of a crocodilian give me a yell! LOL.

Thanks again,
chris

taphillip May 12, 2005 09:52 PM

You hit it all on the head in less than 1 page! (Goini)Use that advise in your paper! Thats the best stuff you'll find.
Be careful of some websites etc. People can put anything they want on the internet.

My only addition to what was said is an over-emphasis of "Learn first, experience second!"

Best Regards,
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

azatrox May 12, 2005 11:31 PM

I appreciate the kind words. I know that some keepers may want to tweek the order of things in my post, and I pretty much wrote them down as they popped into my head....that is, they are not necessarily written in any particular order of importance. Working with someone else's animals under their supervision (assuming they are experienced) before acquiring your own animals is very important I think, as it familiarizes one with the behaviors and "quirks" of a given species before they actually own it. The experienced keeper can also tell the newbie what they're doing right, what they're doing wrong, etc....Granted, many keepers learn how to keep these animals largely by themselves at a relatively early age (I know I did), but I think that if we had more "mentors" out there willing to show newbies how to do things the responsible way, this might strengthen responsible keeping of these wonderful creatures as a whole. Of course there are liability issues for the experienced keeper and these also need to be considered before someone agrees to take someone else "under their wing" so to speak. Again, thanks for the kind words!

-AzAtrox

Buzztail1 May 12, 2005 08:02 AM

Once upon a time, Allen Hunter had a website with the Golden Rules of Venomous Keeping (Venom 101). Allen got out of the hobby and his webpage went away. Bootleg printed copies of his website still show up now and then but they are becoming more and more difficult to find.
The current best source of all around information on keeping venomous snakes is to be found at:
http://www.kingsnake.com/snakegetters/demo/
There is also a new book available (which I haven't reviewed yet - but plan to soon) called Venomous Snakes in Captivity:
http://www.reptileeducation.com/books.html
Both of these should be excellent sources of the kind of information you're looking for.
Cheers,
Karl H. Betz

goini04 May 12, 2005 08:26 PM

Karl,

Thank you for the info. I will look into some of those websites and also see if I can find the book that you referred to.

Thanks again!!

chris

Carmichael May 12, 2005 08:36 AM

First, I think its great that you want to help educate people on responsible care of potentially dangerous herps (whether its a venomous snake, large constrictor, etc.). We need more of that. Even more importantly, anyone considering to work with venomous, if they want to do it responsibly, needs to mentor under someone who has experience who has proven themselves to be responsible keepers. Most of the skills I have acquired with working with venomous herps was spawned by printed material but honed by working with those who had far more experience than myself when I first started. Over the years, I have developed my own skills and protocols that work for me but as one other post mentioned, AzAtrox,there are certain universals/absolutes when it comes to working with hot stuff. COMMON sense is perhaps the most important followed by living a clean lifestyle (drugs and alcohol are lethal combinations when working with venomous), having the resources to provide the proper caging and having your own supply of A/V, and maturity. While there are certain equipment that can be somewhat standard when working with any venomous snake (tongs, long forceps, various shields, etc.), it is also important to make sure that any printed material is careful to point out that each group of venomous herps present their own unique challenges and will require a different method in working with them.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

>>Hello everyone,
>>
>> I am currently looking for any type of guides on keeping venomous snakes, draft codes for responsible keeping, and lists possibly of tools that should be within the owners arsenal. I am using this as information to promote responsible keeping of dangerous reptiles (well animals in general). I dont like the idea of people keeping without experience and proper knowledge of the animals in which they wish to keep. I would like to get something together as resources for these people to help them understand the seriousness of owning dangerous exotic pets.
>>
>>Any help or articles,websites, or your own personal comments that you dont mind me sharing would be great!!
>>
>>Thanks in advance
>>chris
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

goini04 May 12, 2005 08:35 PM

Mr. Carmichael,

I always enjoy whatever input you provide to a topic. Thank you for your help. Would you mind if I were to quote you in my project? I would not like that idea of anyone thinking all of this information is coming from me, primarily because I have NO experience with "hots". You have been a great help and many thanks!!

Thanks again!!
chris

Carmichael May 12, 2005 09:27 PM

No problemo; I generally just ask to see the final project/work so that I know what context you are using the information. Good luck, Rob

>>Mr. Carmichael,
>>
>> I always enjoy whatever input you provide to a topic. Thank you for your help. Would you mind if I were to quote you in my project? I would not like that idea of anyone thinking all of this information is coming from me, primarily because I have NO experience with "hots". You have been a great help and many thanks!!
>>
>>Thanks again!!
>>chris
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

goini04 May 12, 2005 09:57 PM

Rob,

No problem. It will take some time, but when I get my site up and going as well as my speech, I will make sure you see it before it is made public for your approval.

Thanks again,

Chris

redbellyhunter Jun 01, 2005 01:11 AM

Ok I have absolutly no experience with "hot" snakes other than hooking a rattlesnake for picture taking in Custer State park, SD. I've tried to keep two wild garder snakes, a wild racer, and a wild milk snake-all died at once after being successfully kept for a few months, i suspect it may have something to do with hibernation-i didn't try to hibernate them. I also have experience with redbellied snakes in the lab-those are frustrating.

But never mind my very limited experience. The number one rule is this.... Ask yourself SHOULD you keep a hot. Explore your reasons for wanting to keep a hot and what not.

Seems like common sense advice but it is to frequently ignored-case in point, last year in North Dakota a young man was caught with three elapids and a rattlesnake. From what i remeber this guy would carry his green mamba around in a SWEATER BOX and show it off to his friends. About two weeks after his pets were taken away he blew his arm off with a pipe bomb. Common sense, something i need to work on myself-and perhaps everyone in general, is a very valuable asset to have.

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