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Really rotten day...

LizardMom May 12, 2005 12:17 AM

One of my ackies died. Somehow, it got something caught in its throat. I wondered what was up when I saw it basking in a very un-monitor-like position the other day, but when I moved it to make sure it was ok, it appeared fine.


Then I noticed the next day that it did not seem interested in food and wasn't as plump as usual.

Yesterday morning, I saw what seemed to be a pointed bulge in its lower throat. Called the rep vet and took the poor thing in. The vet agreed it was something in the throat, but couldn't figure out how to get it out and would not try surgery. I think he was afraid of how small the ackies are. The rep vet said he would try to get ahold of another vet who he thought might have some experience with ackies, but when I got up this morning, the little thing had died. I did a kind of home autopsy. Whatever the blockage was, it came apart as I was trying to get it out. Looks almost like a tiny piece of stick.

I feel horrible that I did not realize there was a problem right off. And I feel sorry for the other little ackie, as it seems to be looking for it's cagemate.

I wonder if I could add another ackie or whether it would be too hard to get them to bond.

Leslie

Replies (21)

pgross8245 May 12, 2005 09:59 AM

Oh Leslie, how awful for you. I am so sorry for your loss. The ackies are so easy to get attached to with their cute little personalities. Hopefully you can figure out what was swallowed to make sure there is nothing in your cage that could be dangerous to your other little guy. The ackies seem to do fairly well together, so maybe if you could find one similar in size?? I'm sure you'll get more input from more experienced keepers about that. Again, I feel bad for you.

Pam

rsg May 12, 2005 11:00 AM

Sorry for your loss.

There is a horseshoe shaped bone in the throats of monitors that you can see when they puff their throats. In the last picture you posted it looks like that bone is sticking out and half of it is missing.
Is it possible this is the stick you are referring too and half of it is decayed? Could just be the picture.

I've had monitors eat lots of crazy things, one time a peach throat ate cork bark that had mouse guts on it. I'm not saying choking on a stick is impossible, but I would think it unlikely.

Again, sorry for your loss.

LizardMom May 12, 2005 11:50 AM

Not really sure, but whatever was in the throat is shown in the little pieces below the 'body.' Admittedly, necropsy done with a razor blade and a couple of toothpics is hardly the best, but the vet also seemed to feel that the bulge was slightly moveable and not part ot the lizard. What do I know? I posted to learn. If it is the bone, what do you think could have caused the deterioration?

Thanks for you input.

Leslie

rsg May 12, 2005 09:15 PM

I don't have the slightest idea what could cause the problem. Did you open up it's body and look in there?

LizardMom May 12, 2005 09:35 PM

No, I didn't. Probably should have, but I truthfully would not have known what I was looking for anyway. 20/20 hindsight, I could have posted the pics here and somebody maybe could have made some determination. Just didn't think of that.

Leslie

RobertBushner May 12, 2005 01:18 PM

when I feed him crickets he eats more leaves than crickets. He even ate part of a paper plate (leftover chopped fuzzies for ackies). Perhaps he just needs more fiber in his diet. hahahahaha

Not a day goes by that that boy doesn't do something to make me smile, he has character.

Leslie,
Monitors seem to be able to eat all sorts of things without bad side effects, whether this was a freak accident or something else is going wrong, is something you need to think about.

Good Luck, I'm really sorry, losing monitors is never easy,

--Robert

rsg May 12, 2005 01:29 PM

He is a big clown isn't he? Not the brightest, but definately entertaining.

I was cooking mussels a couple weeks ago and decided to feed some raw ones to the dumeril's, I was suprised when they swallowed them whole. I imagine if they can digest mussel shells, they could digest almost anything.

tectovaranus May 12, 2005 01:36 PM

I feed my dums whole crayfish and whole body freshwater shrimp 4 times a week and they process them great-poo is usually bright red(crayfish).How many dums do you have? any spare c.b males?
cheers B.A

rsg May 12, 2005 01:43 PM

Yes, they seem to like most shellfish, but I don't feed it to them often.
I only keep two dumeril's now and have none I want to get rid of. Besides you had 14 at one time and were going to breed them to compete with imports, I should think you would have a few cb laying around.

tectovaranus May 12, 2005 02:02 PM

They do love the shellfish!ever seen their reaction to fish?All of mine thrash around like crazy!very smelly..Fed mine some stillborn boas yesterday and they all did the same thing,they have never even seen snakes before,so it was pretty interesting and kinda gross.I do have some dum's "lying around" my problem is with genetic diversity,After a divorce and out of state move I have one male and three females.One female produced by M.Fost at Zoo Atlanta,1.1 produced by N.Freer,and one that I produced in '98-the M.fost is the mother of that one.I did keep 9 of the ones I produced initialy but later sold and had 2 others from fost that unfourtunatly died.One while laying eggs and the other?Profesional Necropsy was inconclusive.Hope you have lots of fun with your dums!
Cheers B.A

rsg May 12, 2005 02:22 PM

I apologize, re-read the "lying around" comment in my post and it came across sarcastic.

I have found dumeril's to be pretty hardy and with the number of WC males floating around, I would try and get genetic diversity that way. Not too many folks that I know of hatching dums.

Good Luck

RobertBushner May 12, 2005 01:00 PM

Sorry Leslie,

It is definitely possible to add another ackie and not have problems, but it's also possible there will be problems. Overall I've found ackies to be fairly tolerant, but exceptions always exist. Really it comes down to being willing to take the risk and working through the problems that come up. No one can tell you it will or won't work, but that is part of the fun of it.

Good Luck,

--Robert

JPsShadow May 12, 2005 01:53 PM

Looks like it was a little fella. I can't say I have ever seen any of my monitors choke on anything.

I can tell you I have seen dead or dieing baby to small bearded dragons. What was found was a small wood chip in the stomach. Looked like reptibark or something similar.

While this is only in 5 different cases and their certainly are more bearded dragons around then that. It was found to occur and is probly possable.

FR May 12, 2005 07:05 PM

Sorry to hear Mom, But stuff can happen. I have to ask, what is the substrate? The stuff you by the throat looks like bark or something.

Anyway, it most likely has nothing to do with it. I am not a fan of getting rid of everything that "may" cause harm. In all the years of keeping reptiles, I have only lost one to something similar to what appeared happened to your ackie.

About getting another one, young ones have a far less percentage chance of fighting(not getting along) then older ones. But there are no hard fast rules to this. I have without a doubt had old adults get along great, as well as young ones not get along. FR

LizardMom May 12, 2005 09:29 PM

Thanks, everybody, for the thoughtful replies.

The substrata I was experimenting with was a combination of my 'good brown dirt,' some playsand, and some coconut fiber to try to get it to hold more moisture. The more I look at the picture, the more I think that maybe the stuff in the throat was a chunk of the coconut fiber. So maybe I ought to get rid of that and try something else (although the other ackie is actually starting to tunnel in this stuff...shoot, I finally get something diggable and it appears to possibly have unexpected dangers involved).

The really upsetting thing is that, while I know it is all a matter of changing things until you get it they way the monitor wants it, I really hate losing the little guy. It's hard to be philosophical about the loss when I only had the two.

Guess it's time to start the ackie hunt again.

Leslie

JPsShadow May 12, 2005 11:03 PM

I use it for many baby monitors, my newly hatched nile is on it. Burrowing in it and on occasion eats some along with the crickets or pinkies.

I also use it for my sons leopard geckos. The female loves it for nesting or so it seems as she keeps pumping out more eggs and my son keeps hathcing them. They also eat the stuff on occasion. I have seen no problems with mine.

It doesn't mean it cannot happen or cause harm, but don't overlook something else.

LizardMom May 13, 2005 01:10 AM

I use it for the nesting box for my leos and my cresteds, too, with great results. That's why I figured to try it in the ackie substrata mix to try to get it to hold a burrow. But the more I look at what was caught in the ackie's throat, the more I think that is what it was.

I certainly did not think it would be a problem. They were on just the coconut fiber when I first got them, but they did not dig in it, which is what started my search for more diggable substrata.

I'll just keep watching the remaining one real close. The one problem I do seem to have is that I use a stack of cork bark for their basking area, and they climb all over and through it and would always 'rearrange' it and then I have to go in and recheck my basking temps six times a day. I was leary of stacking anything heavier, as I did not want them to dig under it and have it collapse on them, especially while they were young. I was thinking of maybe trying to make a fake rock stack with lots of crevices out of styrofoam coated with something to make it look like rock so they could still play with their cork, but not disturb their basking spots as often. Would they climb on those sandblasted heavy roots, do you think?

Leslie

FR May 13, 2005 09:17 AM

You and others here have gone crazy on this subject. To hold a burrow any sand or dirt only needs to be moist. Store purchased sand is screened into uniform sizes, therefore, it does not hold a burrow or moisture to well. Do you understand that? Fines or small dustlike particules are what allows sand to hold moisture and as a result, a burrow.

Also, you going all out trying all sorts of stuff is a tiny bit ahead of the game. The first thing you need to do is, provide a good enviornment for your monitors, good temps, methods to not allow dehydration, good food, good selection of hiding areas. With these, your monitors will soon grow to adults. Great burrowing conditions is not needed for babies, in fact, behaviorally is not a great demand. All the other stuff is.

Burrowing becomes very important(a matter of right or wrong) during reproduction(nesting) up until then, it not all that important. Non nesting ackies will choose cracks in rocks, cracks in trees, digging under flat rocks, or concrete or anything that will help hold a burrow. Mind you, thats in nature. Of course in areas without the those things, the only option is to make a burrow. Ackies often live in areas without rocks and trees and garbage piles(tin, wood, concrete, old metal water tanks) they often use roots from plants as a method to "hold" a burrow. In places that there are few in any plant roots, they will use rodent or marsupial(mice) burrows.

Please understand, even in nature, dirt may not hold a burrow ALL ON ITS OWN. In many cases, if the area they live in has soil that does not hold a burrow, they will move to other areas for nesting, this is normally around washes where the moisture levels are much higher, therefore the soils hold burrows better. In areas of blowing sand(sand blows in Oz.)(sand dunes here) they cannot burrow in loose sand, so they only live in the areas with the sand becomes mixed with other soils(hardpack) and holds burrows or use the aid of spinifex roots.

Normal natural ackies may burrow for long periods, mainly because the weather conditions forced them too. Otherwise they perfer to live close to the surface. In our cages, they normally prefer to live on the surface or above, until conditions force them underground. These conditions are, too hot, too cold, too dry, not enough food, etc. When conditions are bad, monitors and most other reptiles do not take a plane or a train, or even a bus, consider they have no cars, they only understand to drop down and hide, that is, to burrow(into a suitable mass) and wait out the unsuitable conditions.

Unsuitable conditions, causes a need to burrow. I hope this is not your case. Which exposes the opposite, if conditions are good, they may not have a need to burrow. In that case, whats your problem going bonkers over finding something good to burrow in??????????

Please understand, digging is a good form of exercise, so is climbing, and walking and running. Many people here keep them in little tanks, with one hide, ugly half round piece of wood, or plastic rock, a water bowl and indoor outdoor carpet. In these cases, digging dirt is the only option for exercise, ITS VERY NEEDED HERE. From the pics of your cage, you have all sorts of stuff to climb, jump, run, etc, on. So why the worry about dirt? I would not worry until you suspect one is gravid. Please reread this many times, then find a book, one of many, that show ackies in nature and their habitat and read them. Many give discriptions of many kinds of kind a certain species will live in.

What your doing is very normal and you will see it time and time again, here on KS. What it is, is, inexperienced people take many things, out of context, they do so because, they have no other idea/s of what is correct. So they beat a carrot to death.(you with the dirt) As you may already understand, a carrot has nothing to do with keeping monitors. Its out of context.

As you see, many people here use me as the "carrot" they beat on me, because they have no idea or experience with what suitable to do. But as you now know, I(the carrot) have nothing to do with them or their ability to keep monitors successfully. I am simply a carrot and beating on me, will not effect their ability or understanding of monitors, this goes for beginers all the way to MS's. So please, keep your efforts in context, the sand, dirt, substrate, is important, just not that important. Keep it in context. You can raise happy healthy ackies without dirt. Don't let the dirt stop you. It may only be a carrot. FR

LizardMom May 13, 2005 03:09 PM

Thanks, Frank. I got it! Silly me. Here I am thinking I'm not getting it because ackies burrow, and mine did not. Then it turns out that maybe mine are not digging and burrowing because they don't need to. Well, duh.

The problem for so many of us who are new to monitors is that we don't usually have someone like you, or some of the others who are long term successful keepers and breeders, living close enough where we can go and see successful caging and husbandry in operation. Pictures are great, and discussions like this are even better, but being able to really 'play in the dirt,' so to speak is even better. I've looked at many pictures of ackie country, as you suggest, but it is really hard to know exactly what you are seeing with no reference point. You have been to Australia, so the pictures recall to you what you saw in person. I just don't have that mental reference point.

But I get it, Frank, I'm obsessing on the carrot. Haha! Thanks.

Leslie

JPsShadow May 13, 2005 10:36 AM

Yes they will climb on the roots or on most anything. You don't need to make the basking surface look like a rock. They don't care if it is a rock or a piece of plywood. They only care if the tool works and is useable.

Looks like I should of reworded my post. I mentioned my baby nile burrowing in the coconut fiber. He does dig in it but as frank mentioned it is not needed. So i wouldn't worry if your little ones are not burrowing unless there is reason for it.

I only use the coconut fiber because it keeps the cage humidity were I want it for my little ones. I can change it out fast and works well for me. There certainly are many other choices out there for you that will work.

LizardMom May 13, 2005 03:15 PM

That's why I started with the coconut fiber; I figured it would make it easier to keep the humidity where they needed it.

So now I know that their crawling under things to sleep and using the silly fake rock snake house thingie I gave them was because they liked it and it worked, not because they were missing something.

Silly me. I saw it, but I did not understand it. Gad, I complicate things!

(See LizardMom beating her head against the wall in self-disgust...)

Cheers all.

Leslie

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