Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently had some time to waste, so i counted up about 118 pieds for sale on peter kahls site. not to mention how many breeders he has also mention how many other breeders have for sale and breeder animals they have i see a major price drop. what does everyone think?

Guess the price needs to come down more to hit another customer group. I know i would buy one tomorrow for $2k.

Happens every year with a bunch of stuff, just about everyone out there is breeding balls now, not a suprise that some morphs are dropping faster than others, its always something to see how much things start off at the beginning of the year,and what and how much some animals drop in their prices.

I'm pretty new to all this, but what's the chances of breeders simply having an over abundance of a certain morph or two due to, say buying up to many or having an excess of hatchlings, or even a slump in sales of that particular one for whatever reason. Might that cause some to try to off load their excess at a lower price?

Quig

Some breeders specialize in one or two morphs. For example, I know of a few breeders who will have just about nothing but Pastel clutches this year. Yet I know of another who produces masses of Pieds but few others. Focus shifts. Many who were breeding albinos changed their focus to Pastels and Spiders and the like. Prices in this hobby are volatile. I expect a shift away from Pastels in the next few years as "everyone will have them". Once this happens, focus will shift again, perhaps more on Spiders, as the prices are more affordable. Then the process can repeat. Personally, I'm working on some long-term double het projects. They should prove interesting.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Pete is a good friend and we (Chicago Reptile House) buy a ton of stuff from him every year. What you need to understand is Pete has those animals for one reason.....he stopped wholesaling after he sold a certain number last year. He wanted to hold back X amount of animals to raise up and get premium money for. There are plenty of people out there that would rather pay more and get older animals. Pete could have sold out last year if that was his goal. It was not! All animals will drop in price each year....that is normal. Pete produced a ton of Pieds.....and can sell them for whatever he decides. If he wanted to sell every one of those he could call a few guys up and they would be gone in one day. If you have seen Petes ski-lodge....oops I mean house you would see he is not hurting for money. Hes a smart business man and knows what hes doing. Hopefully that calms down some fears that the sky is falling. This is a strong market......DONT PANIC!!!!

Godd luck,

Brian Potter
Chicago Reptile House
NARBC

I think Brian is absolutely corrrect. It's a business decision to hold back animals and get top dollar for older animls. I wish I had a Ski Lodge.

I bet a lot of people are worried and will start selling their pieds lower because of this but I don't think Pete will care. If he wanted to sell them all, I bet he probably could like Brian was saying.

See you at the NARBC show in Anaheim, CA.

Michael Ibanez

Next you'll be telling us the world ISN'T flat. LOL

You are right Brian.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

IT'S NOT??!?!!

np
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Completely agree that Pete's holdback decision is a good business move. But in all honesty - what are the chances that one breeder (even Pete) can keep the market where it's at? I'm seeing the same Pieds for sale for several months. Eventually there are going to be enough people that want to part with their Pieds at a much lower price that the market will drop. Especially when they see Pete Kahl has so many "left overs" on his site.
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Tosha

"Of course, this is just my opinion...and I believe I am God." -- Christopher Bianco

6.24.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

I read a recent advertisement for a local reptile expo. It boasted over 10,000 visitors last year. Considering that most people do not travel across the country to attend a reptile expo, it is probable that each expo has its own attendees exclusive to that state. Therefore 10,000 attendees multiplied by 50 states equals roughly 500,000 or more attendees -- reptile enthusiasts. Regardless of species favoritism, most reptile enthusiasts would propably agree that the Piebald Ball Python was one of the most stunningly attractive and unique reptiles in herpetoculture today. This could easily translate into a desire to own one.

(Keep in mind that the above estimate does not include future reptile enthusiasts who join our ranks in growing numbers each year.)

So unless Pete Kahl has an extra 500,000 Piebalds sitting around...

Just A Thought,
Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market rests in the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

lets face it a lot of those people can barely afford the ticket price let alone a Pied at the current market price, and at best they'll pick up a pair of hets and breed them out to get one. Then there are those that fall under the category of already having a Pied or Hets. I don't think that the market for actually Pied purchasing is as great as one might think, I'd like to have a Lambourgini, but doesn't look like I'll be gettin one any time soon. I think the market will hold if we start seeing some nice mixes, but as a stand alone, we'll have to see. I'm probably wrong.
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Tosha

"Of course, this is just my opinion...and I believe I am God." -- Christopher Bianco

6.24.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

"...a lot of those people can barely afford the ticket price let alone a Pied at the current market price, and at best they'll pick up a pair of hets and breed them out to get one."

Very true. So we change the 500,000 Piebald figure to read 1,000,000 Heterozygous Piebalds.

Either way...Pete Kahl ain't doin' it any time soon. =)

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market rests in the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

Chris, all those figures look good on paper, BUT even you gotta know that all those people aren't lookin' for pieds, or ball pythons for that matter. Everyone has their own tastes in reptiles, and everyone isn't into balls. There are probably as many died in the wool retic, burmese, boa or any one of a dozen lizard freaks out there, as there are ball affectionados. And they're there lookin' for what they are into. Might wanna reevaluate them figgers bro . Have a good'n.

Quig

Okay. Let us assume that 99% of reptile enthusiasts absolutely detest anything Ball Python related. That STILL leaves us with a demand for around 5,000 Piebalds.

In order to fill that demand, Pete Kahl would need approximately 50 times the number of Piebalds in his current "available" inventory.

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market rests in the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

I think I got lost in the equation somewhere...
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Self! Do the numbers really matter? Forget the numbers. The numbers were just an illustration. The point is...

Pete Kahl can not supply Piebalds to the entire world.

Love Always,
Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market rests in the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

Sorry. That reply sounded irritated and almost angry. I apologize. I am anything but angry. Jealous of PK maybe, but definitely not angry. =)

Mean people suck.

Hugs & Kisses,
Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market rests in the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

I don't think the Pied Market will dump as fast as the pastel market did, but I do think in another couple of years (with my luck probably about the same time I'll be trying to sell mine)they'll be going for about $2K and everyone and their mother will already have one (like albinos).
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Tosha

"Of course, this is just my opinion...and I believe I am God." -- Christopher Bianco

6.24.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

"I don't think the Pied Market will dump as fast as the pastel market did, but I do think in another couple of years (with my luck probably about the same time I'll be trying to sell mine)they'll be going for about $2K and everyone and their mother will already have one (like albinos)."

Ha! My mother doesn't have any Albinos. =)

Chris
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“The problem with the Ball Python market rests in the advertisement of true morphs versus pseudo-morphs. Many people are simply taking Normal animals for Granite." – CJBianco

One thing I love about pieds is their variation. It makes me feel I could enjoy having quite a few of them, where I'm happy with one pair of ghosts, one pair of albinos, etc. I know ghosts etc. are variable, but not in the extreme way pieds are. I don't have any yet but it seems like they will be VERY fun to produce! Maybe that's why PK makes so many LOL!

Christy

Ever since the BREAKUP it is praise be this and Holy that...

"Godd Luck"

Still using that ole signature......

C'mon PREIST.... lighten up just a bit!!!

Peek A PeeK A CHOOOOOO.........
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www.newenglandreptile.com

I cant believe Kevin didnt hit that up in a second.......you are getting slow in your old age my friend......I read it after I typed it wrong and said "Kevy is all over that". I talked with Kerry King the other day and he and I think you and your drummer are out of sink on the new CD........

Love ya,

Brian Potter

www.chicagoreptile.net

All I got to say is do we have to have this conversation again???

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=779005,779005

I don't care if Pete has 10,000 pieds to sell and they drop to $10 bucks. I'm gonna produce them because they are insanely cool.

Yes I do agree that prices will continue to slowly decrease....they may spike back or re-surge when crosses get marketed. One animal that is a good market reference point is the Albino. Both are simple recessive and both visually seperating from all other morphs. The albino has held very strong and is 5 years further along in it's life cycle proven in 1992. I also believe many more albinos are being produced than pieds in a years time....and they seem to be moving just fine.

I believe that the Albino and Pieds are what I consider foundational morphs. In other words, they will be part of the base almost all collectors and breeders will start with. They are also both so obviously different to the untrained eye. If a consumer spends $2000-$5000 on a snake they want people to notice it is dramtically different then a typical snake. Both these animals fall in this catagory.

Pieds and Albinos are fine. These snakes will one day even penetrate the Pet Store Market. Yes.....that day will come when we see these treasured morphs for $500 in a pet store. But rest assured not all morphs will be in demand at this level....only the staple snake will make a splash at this market level. The Pied....The Albino and a few others. Who could possibly manage (captive bred) the North American Pet store market. You can't bring Pieds in aboard ship from africa. Captive bred volume will become more of an issue as prices decrease.

For me....I'm happy covering my costs and having some extra money to reinvest. A little extra play money is nice. I'm happy about the ball market....but if they ever hit $5 each....mark my words I will still be doing this.

My goals with or without the Market:

See a Pied come out of an egg that I produced
See an Albino come out of an egg
See a Super Pastel come out of an egg that I produced
See a Blue Eyed Lucy come out of an egg that I produced
See a Patty come out of an egg that I produced
See a Genetic Stripes come out of an egg that I produced
Produce a Super Pastel X all the above (not Lucy.....; )
Create a new designer mutation

Next year I should achieve three of these goals

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Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

I could not have said that better myself ! ! !

You are the only person besides Brian that had responded to this thread that makes a bit of sense. I'm surprised that more Ball python breeders/owners aren't better business people...like Pete maybe. Success has nothing to do what others do. On the contrary, it has everything to do with what YOU do. If you are a total loser in life, don't expect to be a big success in this business. On the other hand, if you are a person that does what it takes to succeed, chances are you will be a success in this business too. And has anyone noticed the prices Pete is asking for his Pieds ? Higher than you can get elsewhere. Think people, think !!!
Paul Edwards