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i was reading an artical about ibd....

gooofycivic May 13, 2005 01:22 AM

and was wondering if it can be contracted from prey items...like if u bought pet shop rodents would u have a high chance of giving ur ball pythons the disease or any disease for that matter....thanx

Replies (19)

serpentcity May 13, 2005 07:59 AM

...similar to human HIV...all evidence points to transmission through "exchange of body fluids" but primarily through the blood route...no evidence that rodents can carry the IBD virus...

...as far as other pathogens, rodents can act as vectors for bacterial and parasitic pathogens so, yes in this case...

Scott J. Michaels DVM
Serpent City

bps516 May 13, 2005 09:26 AM

OK, I may be stupid here but what is IBD with snakes?
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

rwoodyer May 13, 2005 09:32 AM

Scott, I do not think IBD is caused by a virus at all. To my knowledge there is not conclusive evidence of its viral origin, especially not of its retroviral origin (RNA based virus). If there is some peer reviewed article stating otherwise, please provide a citation of some sort. IBD is a disease of inclusion bodies. If we look to other species for hints as to what the infectious agent is, we find diseases such as scarpie in sheep, Crutzfeld-Jacob disease (CJD) in humans, bovine spongeoform encephalitis (BSE, madcow) in cattle. These are all inclusion body diseases that affect the nervous system, yet none of them are caused by viruses. They are all caused by misfolded proteins known as prions, which cause other proteins to misfold and so on and so on until inclusion bodies are formed. Most likely IBD is also caused by a proteinaseous infective agent which can be transmitted most commonly by fluid exchange or consumption of infected food. The most scary part of this disease, is that traditional barriers of species do not seem to apply (this is why mad cow disease should concern everyone, just before you pick up a steak think was this cow infected with mad cow?) Mad cow infected meat has caused a rash of varient CJD in Humans in the UK. But as long as the mice have not been in contact with infected animals, there should be no problem, however, if you suspect that a pet store has had animals with IBD, stay as far away as possible. As to whether or not IBD is a prion type disease has not been determined, but in my opinion it is much more likely than it being caused by a virus. Hopefully, meaningful research will be performed on this disease, but it is unlikely with the huge number of human diseases that are still not entirely understood.

coldthumb May 13, 2005 10:30 AM

"The most scary part of this disease, is that traditional barriers of species do not seem to apply"

Wow...Thanks for that information.
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Charles Glaspie

jmartin104 May 13, 2005 03:55 PM

it is a retrovirus.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

rwoodyer May 13, 2005 09:45 PM

Please, if you can provide reputable documents based in research, I would love to read them...

more info??

jmartin104 May 14, 2005 07:06 AM

Do a Google search and you will find at least a couple.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

rwoodyer May 14, 2005 10:37 AM

I thought you actually had articles that might have been written by someone that had done research in the area...

Thanks anyway

jmartin104 May 14, 2005 10:42 AM

I used to have several articles at one time. I had planned to do an article on IBD. Since that time, we moved and items were lost/misplaced. Some of the same official studies I had are still on the internet. All one has to do is take the time to find them.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

rwoodyer May 14, 2005 05:46 PM

Jay, I have read a ton of articles that say it is a virus too.

But looking at this thing with a critical eye, none of them actually have any evidence. One thing that stood out to me was one of the first articles I came across was from the Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine
at the University of Florida. In that article, they stated that they "believed" it was a virus but "The major lines of research involve identification and isolation of the causative agent and then development of a serodiagnostic test". This means they think it is a retrovirus, but have not actually identified it as such.

This seems to fairly credibly suggest that it is not known to be a virus and that my suggestion is just as possible. I e-mailed Dr. Elliot Jacobson the author of this article to get more information of this topic and I am going to post his reply here when I get it.

jmartin104 May 14, 2005 07:50 PM

that it is not definitive and I'm open to other possibilites - including your suggestions. But as you stated, fact is, we don't know and until something is proven, all we have are theories. Theories in many cases are better than nothing.

I would be interested in learning more. IBD is not at the top of my list of study at present, but it does interest me.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

rwoodyer May 15, 2005 03:21 PM

Although his response was rather wishy-washy, he doesn't seem to think that the inclusion bodies formed in IBD are similar to those formed from in prion diseases, although there is a limited amount of information on both diseases. I still think my theory is a valid one, since there is no evidence against it, but maybe it is a little less likely than I originally thought.

here is his reply quoted exactly...

"The specific causative agent has not been established. Transmission
studies have been done with liver homogenates of snakes with IBD to show
it is infectious. There is some evidence to support a retrovirus. The
research is meaningul but not conclusive. Several retorviruses have been
isolated from snakes with IBD but transmission studies have not been
done with these viruses. Our focus is to develop a serodiagnostic test to
detemine exposure. This entails sequencing the major protein in IBD
inclusions. This is ongoing. The electron microscopic appearance of
inclusions is not at all similar to that of prion proteins.

I hope this provides you some information.

EJacobson
Professor"

jmartin104 May 15, 2005 03:25 PM

Hopefully, we will know more in a few years. Some things aren't as studied as highly as others.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

rodmalm May 14, 2005 12:22 AM

An inclusion body is a protein that a cell makes (probably to try to protect itself) when it is infected with a virus, or possibly when the virus penetrates the cell membrane. You can't have a disease that infects inclusion bodies because cells don't even have inclusion bodies until after they are infected.

Many viral diseases are diagnosed by the presence of inclusion bodies. The inclusion body does not tell which virus is causing the infection, because many virus will cause the cell to produce the inclusion bodies, It just tell us that the infected cells are indeed infected, because they have reacted by producing the inclusion bodies.

Rodney

rwoodyer May 14, 2005 10:36 AM

>>An inclusion body is a protein that a cell makes (probably to try to protect itself) when it is infected with a virus, or possibly when the virus penetrates the cell membrane. You can't have a disease that infects inclusion bodies because cells don't even have inclusion bodies until after they are infected.

Who said anything about a disease that infects inclusion bodies? That doesn't make any sense. The disease is the inclusion bodies! It is true that some viral diseases cause inclusion bodies, but not for the reason you suggest (the cell trying to protect itself). The reason is because the viral DNA inserts itself into your genome and usually contains very strong and bidirectional promoters that start the production of virus particles. These promoters are often so strong that too much of the viral protein is produced or even normal proteins whos genes happen to be close genetically to the point of virus DNA insertion can get over produced. These overproduced proteins overwhelm the cells ability to process and fold them correctly, resulting in inclusion bodies, which is just a mass of unfolded protein. There are many genetic, non-genetic, non-viral, viral, and even bacterial diseases that cause inclusion body formation as well. For example huntington's disease in human is a genetic inclusion body disease, which is caused by too many repeats of the same gene resulting in overproduction of the huntington protein. Basically, inclusion bodies form anytime there is more protein production that the cells can handle. Prion diseases such as mad cow disease work at the opposite end, by making protein degradation impossible, such that the cell is not overproducing protein, but it cannot get rid of the protein it produces...thus it builds up overtime, usually taking months to years before the effects are seen. Most viral disease that cause inclusion bodies develop much more quickly.

Rodney, the fact is inclusion bodies do not say what the origin of infection is or that they are even infected, just that they are not normal. Alzheimer's patients have inclusion body formation, but they are not infected with a virus. In fact, CJD (crutzfeld-jacob disease), scrapie, and mad cow disease were all once thought to be cause by a virus. Only in the past ten years have we really begun to understand that in fact the infectious agent is not a virus, but a prion protein. Although IBD in snakes might be caused by a virus, I am betting on it being similar to the aforementioned diseases, due to the delay in onset (years in boas).

jmartin104 May 14, 2005 10:44 AM

.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

rwoodyer May 14, 2005 05:31 PM

If you need more information that what is below, I will be happy to post more, just let me know.

You'll have to be more specific what you want references on...but this should get you started

Here is a place for you to start

http://www.chemistry.ucsc.edu/~fink/200lecture/lecture17.htm

Here is some more information!

NEUROSCIENCE: NEURON INCLUSION BODIES AND DISEASE

The following points are made by Harry T. Orr (Nature 2004 431:747):

1) Neuropathologists have long known that some disorders are characterized by an abnormal accumulation of macromolecules inside cells. These "inclusion bodies" are found, for example, in the brains of patients suffering from Alzheimer's disease, prion diseases, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (also known as Lou Gehrig's disease), Parkinson's disease, and a group of nine so-called polyglutamine diseases, of which Huntington's disease is the most widely known. The common factor in polyglutamine diseases is a genetic mutation that produces abnormal repeats of the amino-acid glutamine in the encoded protein, with more repeats being more pathogenic.

2) With the advent of studies by molecular geneticists and cell biologists, it became clear that, in the inherited forms of each of these diseases, inclusion bodies contain the protein encoded by the gene containing the disease-causing mutation. These observations reignited long-standing questions of whether and how the inclusions contribute directly to the disease process.(1) The debate has had especial intensity where polyglutamine diseases, and Huntington's disease in particular, are concerned(2,3). For the polyglutamine diseases, inclusion bodies containing mutant protein sprang to public attention in a series of papers(2-5) that appeared in 1997. In the case of Huntington's disease, the critical protein is called huntingtin (htt), and inclusions containing mutant htt are found at the major site of neurodegeneration, the medium spiny neurons in a brain region called the striatum.

3) Depending on the system and the manipulations performed, over the years the experimental evidence has been interpreted as showing that the inclusion bodies cause disease, protect against disease, or are simply incidental. The largest contingents are those who believe that inclusions are the major pathogenic species, owing to their ability to absorb other critical cellular proteins, and those who feel inclusions are protective, in that they sequester mutant protein out of harm's way. Resolution of this issue is necessary for many reasons, not least because many current studies aim to interfere with inclusion-body formation as a potential treatment for Huntington's disease and the other neurodegenerative disorders characterized by protein aggregates.

4) Arrasate et al(1) have devised a real-time technique for assessing the factors that affect the risk of neuron death in culture. They used a common model of Huntington's disease in which striatal neurons are transiently transfected with a pathogenic fragment of mutant htt (htt-exon1). They developed an automated microscopic system to simultaneously follow inclusion-body formation, the presence of diffuse htt and cell survival in the same neuron over a period of days. To visualize deposition of htt in transfected cells, they employed a construct of htt-exon1 fused with green fluorescent protein. As expected, inclusion bodies formed, in the nucleus and in the cytoplasm, and neurons died. However, inclusion-body formation actually prolonged survival and protected neurons, seemingly by reducing the amount of a toxic, diffusely distributed form of mutant htt.

References (abridged):

1. Arrasate, M., Mitra, S., Schweitzer, E. S., Segal, M. R. & Finkbeiner, S. Nature 431, 805-810 (2004)

2. Davies, S. W. et al. Cell 90, 537-548 (1997)

3. Paulson, H. L. et al. Neuron 19, 333-344 (1997)

4. Skinner, P. J. Nature 389, 971-974 (1997)

5. DiFiglia, M. et al. Science 277, 1990-1993 (1997)

jmartin104 May 14, 2005 07:52 PM

>>If you need more information that what is below, I will be happy to post more, just let me know.
>>
>>You'll have to be more specific what you want references on...but this should get you started
>>
>>Here is a place for you to start
>>
>>http://www.chemistry.ucsc.edu/~fink/200lecture/lecture17.htm
>>
>>Here is some more information!
>>
>>NEUROSCIENCE: NEURON INCLUSION BODIES AND DISEASE
>>
>>The following points are made by Harry T. Orr (Nature 2004 431:747):
>>
>>1) Neuropathologists have long known that some disorders are characterized by an abnormal accumulation of macromolecules inside cells. These "inclusion bodies" are found, for example, in the brains of patients suffering from Alzheimer's disease, prion diseases, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (also known as Lou Gehrig's disease), Parkinson's disease, and a group of nine so-called polyglutamine diseases, of which Huntington's disease is the most widely known. The common factor in polyglutamine diseases is a genetic mutation that produces abnormal repeats of the amino-acid glutamine in the encoded protein, with more repeats being more pathogenic.
>>
>>2) With the advent of studies by molecular geneticists and cell biologists, it became clear that, in the inherited forms of each of these diseases, inclusion bodies contain the protein encoded by the gene containing the disease-causing mutation. These observations reignited long-standing questions of whether and how the inclusions contribute directly to the disease process.(1) The debate has had especial intensity where polyglutamine diseases, and Huntington's disease in particular, are concerned(2,3). For the polyglutamine diseases, inclusion bodies containing mutant protein sprang to public attention in a series of papers(2-5) that appeared in 1997. In the case of Huntington's disease, the critical protein is called huntingtin (htt), and inclusions containing mutant htt are found at the major site of neurodegeneration, the medium spiny neurons in a brain region called the striatum.
>>
>>3) Depending on the system and the manipulations performed, over the years the experimental evidence has been interpreted as showing that the inclusion bodies cause disease, protect against disease, or are simply incidental. The largest contingents are those who believe that inclusions are the major pathogenic species, owing to their ability to absorb other critical cellular proteins, and those who feel inclusions are protective, in that they sequester mutant protein out of harm's way. Resolution of this issue is necessary for many reasons, not least because many current studies aim to interfere with inclusion-body formation as a potential treatment for Huntington's disease and the other neurodegenerative disorders characterized by protein aggregates.
>>
>>4) Arrasate et al(1) have devised a real-time technique for assessing the factors that affect the risk of neuron death in culture. They used a common model of Huntington's disease in which striatal neurons are transiently transfected with a pathogenic fragment of mutant htt (htt-exon1). They developed an automated microscopic system to simultaneously follow inclusion-body formation, the presence of diffuse htt and cell survival in the same neuron over a period of days. To visualize deposition of htt in transfected cells, they employed a construct of htt-exon1 fused with green fluorescent protein. As expected, inclusion bodies formed, in the nucleus and in the cytoplasm, and neurons died. However, inclusion-body formation actually prolonged survival and protected neurons, seemingly by reducing the amount of a toxic, diffusely distributed form of mutant htt.
>>
>>References (abridged):
>>
>>1. Arrasate, M., Mitra, S., Schweitzer, E. S., Segal, M. R. & Finkbeiner, S. Nature 431, 805-810 (2004)
>>
>>2. Davies, S. W. et al. Cell 90, 537-548 (1997)
>>
>>3. Paulson, H. L. et al. Neuron 19, 333-344 (1997)
>>
>>4. Skinner, P. J. Nature 389, 971-974 (1997)
>>
>>5. DiFiglia, M. et al. Science 277, 1990-1993 (1997)
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

jmartin104 May 14, 2005 07:53 PM

However, I will do some reading on this. Thanks for the details.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

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