Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This isn't about monitors, but it is about reptiles being 'social'. I know you worked with pythons way back, and was wondering if you saw anything social from them besides mating? I was just wondering this because I put my baby boa in my large male boas cage for a few hours while i cleaned her cage, and EVERYWHERE he went, she would end up following. Just wondering, because another forum i know says boas arent supposed to be housed together because they arent found like that in the wild, much like the MS's say here.

Thanks,
Randy

hahahahahahahaha I actually have a python, one. I would love to get womas again, maybe this year or next.

Hmmmmmmmmm again the ugly word "social" pops up. Not sure if social is the right word, as monitors are social in a monitor social way(hahahahahaha) Ok, snakes of many kinds gather, in groups or dens what the heck ever you want to call them. In most cases, these groups are together for several months, maybe even longer. These groups are normally sexually mature adults. Also, these groups can and do contain pairs within the group. These pairs can and do get together year after year. I have to wonder why timber rattlesnakes do not go to different dens, hmmmmmmmm why limit themselves to one den?

This happens with pythons, its know in many kinds from many places over the world. Its also known in boas. I tend to call it social, only because they do this for far longer then the actual act of mating. So there is something more then this, it also contains pairing rituals, like combating etc. Why drive away some and not others, how odd.

What is clear to me is, they recognize other individuals, they perfer certain individuals, and will meet up with them year after year. Or they meet in groups of the same individuals. Try tossing in an individual from another group and see what happens.

So yea, they may be social, in an even less social way then monitors and other lizards. (looking for reptile humor here)

Again, I am to dumb to know any better, but I did indeed raise pythons in groups and kept and bred them in groups. It worked just great. And like with monitors, I did indeed breed some of the most difficult to breed without problem.(at the time)

I do some field work, and in our animals, they do indeed live in groups. Snakes(colubrids and crotalids), torts, and lizards.

It does boil down to the same problem. People follow a paradign and stay with it, and call everything and anything else wrong. Its simply another case of try it, you may like it. Or in this case the pythons may like it.

You can always give John Caan a call(well known ozzie herper) I have a book with a pic of him and a pile of scrubbies. But heck he has no credibility his parents and their parents were snake charmers.(Cleopatra is his mom)FR

Some behavior in reptiles is more instinctual than social. In rattle snakes, the hatchling snakes follow the parents scent trail to the winter den site. They then return to that den year after year out of instinct, if the den is destroyed the snake does not hibernate and dies (that is why many rattle snakes are endangered, people destroy the den site and the snakes die that winter.) The same is true of box turtles, if you remove a box turtle from its four acre home range it will constantly try to find its way back out of instinct. The turtle will continue serching into winter, will not hibernate, and will die in most cases.

There are many things you should consider, the first being, 99% of the reptiles in the world, occur in equatorial areas. This includes both monitors(the subject of this forum) and pythons and boas(the subject of the question) So, to hibernate is really not the normal to judge the whole by. I will pose a question to you. Even in northern areas, why do mainly adults go to hibernation dens and not inmature individuals. Are you saying there are no inmature individuals, or they do not hibernate. Because its surely not normal to see them in dens. So where are they?

Then why do reptiles in equatorial areas, move to dens or hibernation areas? The picture I refered to, where John Caan was with a bunch of scrubbies, is in northern Queensland, that is very close to the equator and there surely is no need to hibernate? Again, this is the apples to apples of the question, not apples to donuts.

I do totally agree that taking a "set" individual out of its known behavioral range, will surely endanger its life. But I do not think its "all" about instinct. I do believe, reptiles have instincts, or programed knowledge or behavior. To understand this, they are born or hatched knowing what range of prey items to look for, remember, a range of prey items. They are born with the knowledge of a range of conditions to look for, an example, mertens and watersnakes know to seek water, rock monitors seek rocks, burrowers seek dirt, etc. They are born with the knowledge of what temps and humiditiy levels to seek. Again a range.

Now consider, they know those things, now their task to survive is to learn where in the enviornment those things are and remember when and how to use them. Once those are learned, its very easy to understand if you alter or take away key parts of what they learned to survive, it will indeed hinder their chance of survival. examples, where to find food, water, escape from extreme heat/cold, escape from predators, escape from drought, etc.

Its understood, that a very low percentage of hatchlings make it to adulthood. This of course varies with year to year conditions, etc. But for arguements sake, lets say it averages around 90% failure rate. Also, adult reptiles have a consistant failure rate, this too varies with species, location and condition. But again for arguements sake, its around 5% to 15%. Surely you understand that adult reptiles are killed and die in fires and floods, etc.

When you remove a "set", set means an individual that has learned where its needs are met and when, from where its conditions are or remove those conditions, it surely does not exactly kill them, it simply puts them back in the 90% failure range.

Now if you follow those numbers, your seeing a 90% failure of these set individuals. But what is not often realized is that its far worse than that. Its 90% failure rate applied to an individual that has already survived a 90% failure. So yes, I totally agree, remove key components of their enviornment or all of their known conditions is nearly a certain death, about 1% chance of survival. 90% of 100=90 failed, then 90% of 10=9 failed, leaves one. I am sure you agree and most studies also agree, not all die, just many or most.

Where we differ is, I believe its about learned behavior thats guided by instinct and you think its all instinct. I really question your understanding of reptiles. I could go on and on, with examples of why its learned. But that is for another forum. FR

On what study are you basing your assumption that immature rattlesnakes do not hibernate with mature snakes? If your information is in fact accurate, I do not know the answer to your question. However, I will ask my professor for the answer. She is currently conducting a multi-year study on timber rattlesnakes for the West Virginia Department of Natural Resources. You also misinterpreted what I was saying. I did not say social behavior is all instinctual, I said some behavior is more instinctual than social. I also was not answering zippo448’s question, I was answering yours. Your question was “I have to wonder why timber rattlesnakes do not go to different dens, hmmmmmmmm why limit themselves to one den?” The box turtle information was to help support my argument. For some interesting information on box turtles and their habits read Activity, Reproduction and Overwintering Behavior of Ornate Box Turtles (Terrapene ornata ) in the Nebraska Sandhills. By: Converse, Sarah J.; Iverson, John B.; Savidge, Julie A.. American Midland Naturalist, Oct2002, Vol. 148 Issue 2, p416, 7p, 4 charts; (AN 8497994). This study shows that many box turtles hibernate in almost the same area year after year.

The study can be found here:
http://web10.epnet.com/resultlist.asp?tb=1&_ug=sid 2AF8824B-6E11-4594-A56A-26D207549766@sessionmgr5 dbs aph cp 1 72A9&_us=hd False hs True or Date fh False ss SO sm ES dstb ES mh 1 ri KAAACB5A00089136 0520&_uso=tg[2 - tg[1 - tg[0 - db[0 -aph hd False clv[1 -Y clv[0 -Y op[2 -And op[1 -And op[0 - cli[1 -RV cli[0 -FT st[2 - st[1 - st[0 -box turtle mdb[0 -imh F89A&uh=1&sci=S1&sbt=1&lfr=ES

Hi again, first, I did not take your opinion on instinct as, more one way or another. I simply explained what I feel is the balance between instinct and learned behavior.

Also, unfortunately, there are lots of studys on timbers, but for me, that is not such a good example. You see, I live in southern arizona and we have lots of species of rattlesnakes in my immediate area. I also, did field work in central, northern mexico, which has many many more species. So what a timber does is not so important to me. As I said, the vast majority of reptiles are equatorial, as are monitors and pythons, all but a very few species. Therefore taking the extreme and using it as the rule or the base of comparision is not really a good idea.

Also, this is a monitor forum. The original question was about pythons, I could stretch and include monitors, as they come from the same areas, same weather/seasons. But timbers are far removed and I do not know of any comparisons I can make with monitors. Not enough for this thread to belong here.

But please do ask your prof, what percentage of subadults and juvis are at dens, and is that percentage indicative of a normal population. Also consider, Timbers are the only rattlesnake in the northeast, therefore a poor example to use for other rattlesnakes. Thanks FR