Reptile & Amphibian Forums

About 2 weeks ago the baby I wanted to keep suddenly went from perfectly healthy to twitching and trembling with an extended tummy, she was pretty lethargic and unresponsive all that day. I gave her some Neocalglucon (calcium solution that vets use) and soaked her in an electrolyte solution kinda thinking I was going to loose her. The next day she was perfectly fine and has been fine since. I have contiued to give her a few drops of Neocal every few days, and at the time I even gave the other two a few drops for good measure. Yesterday the other two babies began to twitch and tremble with extended bellies and they are acting exactly like the first one! This morning they are no longer twitching but they are looking sleepy still but definately perking up.

They are about a month old, they have been eating very well. I dust the tiny crickets every day and they are gutloaded. They are on newspaper and their basking spot is 105F or more. They eat veggies pretty well (alfalfa, clover, dandelion, chard, collard greens etc..)they have a water dish that they drink from and usually run around like little loonies.

I figured they were getting enough calcium. From now on I am putting Neocal in the water.
Has this ever happened to anyone else? Any suggestions would be appreciated, I was getting ready to try to sell these guys, but I refuse to unless they are perfectly healthy.
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

What supplement do you dust with? I'm trying to rule out low d3 levels. The other thing it could be is to large of a food item.
good luck
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

I use Herptivite and calcium carbonate (groud up cuttlebone)and I know the crix aren't too big, I'm using 1/4 inch ones from Reptilefood.com.
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

If I were you I would change supplements. I would use RepCal Calcium with D3. I would dust all crickets with calcium. Only use the herptivite once a week. To me sounds as if you have babies with really low blood calcium. I would also add calcium to their veggies if they eat veggies. This can be a very serius condition that could easily kill all of your dragons. In this case I would also go out and get a mercury vapor bulb because there is obviously a calcium issue going on.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Does the calcium stuff from the vet contain vitamin d3.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

No it doesn't, and also they do have a mercury vapor bulb, it's been on them since they hatched. I'm skeptical of D3 supplementation, had a lot of herp people I really trust say not to use it.
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

.

...and now look where you are, dragons that are twitching as a result of low calcium due to low d3. The bulbs alone will not cut it. I have said it before and I'll say it again. Supplemention above lighting is what is important in providing your dragon what it needs to process calcium.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

the 3D give you that power too since it has such magically qualities? Most people need to see and access and animal and a several year degree on the wall behind them.

If you had read my other posts you would see I have been supplementing my dragons. Please do not diagnos over the net, did you know that is illegal?
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

If I my post came of as rude, I apologize. My posts are not a diagnosis, they are my opinion as to what the problem is based on your posts. You said you supplement with hertivite and ground cuttle bone. Niether of which contain d3. I still believe that this is what the problem is.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

I guess I assumed that the full spectrum lights made enough D3 in the animal. Some members of the Colorado Reptile Rescue suggested I use cuttlebone as my calcium supplement since it is more natural and more or less pure calcium. I also did not read the ingredients on herptivite till just now so I hadn't even thought of that.

I'm still not convinced that this is a calcium problem however, I have used reptocal to dust more than a few times, i just used the cuttlebone more recently. And I agree with CheriS that bloating just doesn't sound like a calcium or D3 problem.

Either way the babies are better.

Thanks
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

I'm not sure what questions you have about d3 as there aren't any ? in this new post. Cuttle bone is essentially pure calcium, pure calcium carbonate to be more specific. It is the same form of calcium you would find in good supplements like rep-cal or minerall I only without the d3, that is why I would recommend the supp. over the cuttle bone. As far as being convinced about the cause of the twitching, I'm not hear to convince you of anything. I'm just posting what I'm convinced the problem is, whether you or anyone else what's to believe is not my intent. You came hear for advice , you got several points of view, it is now up to you to take that information and apply it anyway you see fit.

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Full spectrum with UVB is sufficient to allow a bearded dragon to synthesis its own D3, same as they do in natural sunlight. ZooMed's mercury vapor should be putting out enough UVB @ only two months old to do that.

Since there is no known overdosing on D3, as a back up to a light maybe not working correctly many people recommend that you use calcium with D3 as a safe guard.

You lights are fine, your babies I do not think are suffering bloated tummies from lack of D3 with them. I think there was pressure on the lower spine from the bloating... I have no idea what could have caused that. As I said earlier we have had it happen and I thought it may have been the crickets with ours and I tossed them out..... the problem seems to be gone.

.
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

Where the herp keepers people that kept dragons. Dragons are different than other lizards. Alot of people have said calcium with d3 is the way to go. no d3 supplementation means that if your bulb, which might have started off producing sufficient uvb, stops producing uvb then your dragon is going to get mbd. and you won't know why. you will think i have a merc vapor their is no chance that what is wrong is due to lack of d3. A good site to read is

www.myiguana.com

he says that igs don't develop hyper d3 when giving calcium with d3 while being exposed to natural light. it isn't dangerous if you use a good supllement and are reasonable.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Hey I was thinking about this, I was wrong, it was Phospherous that my friends were saying not to use. Duh, now i am embarassed! (brain fart, woke up too early) I do have reptocal, I will start using that instead. Thanks so much for your info!!
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I have been dusting the crickets every time I feed with calcium and they are getting neocalglucon. If it is a low calcium, why would it go completely away in one day? I had two rescue geckos with MBD and that was a struggle of a few months. I'll keep yall updated
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

I am thinking you are hitting them over the head with calcium, but without the neccesary d3 it doesn't help, as the calcium will just be passed through. The twitching is low blood levels of calcium. Blood levels of calcium can be corrected pretty easily. I have had twitching drogons stop really quickly. To corect MBD is a long term problem. Agreed. Cheri Could also be right. I would try both things.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

You need a good calcium carbonate supp WITH d3 added. minerall I or Rep-cal. I can say with a great amount of certainty that this is the problem.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

We have ran into something similiar at times. One day one baby was very bloated and even gagging at times with twitching. I checked and the mouth/throat was clear, we know the temps, lights and supplements were right. I gave it acidophliz made by Pet Authority for reptiles as it states it is a digestive tract conditioner also and vet recommended. that night she was fine with her tummy gone down a lot, a few days later another baby in with her was acting the same way and we repeated the same, that one took a few days longer to return to normal, but she was better from the first day with the tummy going down right away, but she did not eat good for a few days.

I thought it might be the crickets had some bug and was affecting them so I tossed them all out and got fresh ones, gave all the babies the acidophiliz and it seems to have stopped the problem.

One baby in each of the two tanks we had serum ca done on them the week prior and were normal, so we know it was not calcium or D3 lack. There are fed 1/4 inche crickets so we also know it was not the size of them.

Where can you get that acido stuff? I'll be at Petsmart today, I'll check there. Since my original posting I soaked the two babies and one pooped, it was diarrhea and I have also since found more diarrhea in the cage, so I am thinking it's a digestive track thing and not a calcium thing. I will try to find that stuff and keep you updated on how it works.
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

Pet Smart carries it, BTW... it also contains D3 so that can cover both basis.

Twitching legs can be a symptom of several things, not just low calcium or D3, it also is caused by ANYTHING that puts pressure on the spinal column, digestive tract irritations, impaction, neurological problems and cramping.

Since I read his whole message and the bloating kinda sticks out, that would indicate strongly that it is something in their tummies that is not happy.... last I checked lack of D3 did not bloat up a belly.

I tend to agree with you, I am a vet tech, while I see mostly dogs and cats, usually bloating has something to do with digestion. I found the stuff and am giving it to the kids right now.

THANKS!!!!
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

Grimdog has a good point too, that you should make sure that calcium supplements have D3 to avoid other problems, I'm not a vet, but have spent many years teaching veterinary students animals husbandry that they do not get a university with exotics and farm animals.

I have never seen a lack of D3 cause bloating..... there is always a first I guess, but usually bloating is related to stomach aliments or kidney problems(which you would see more symptoms with)

Don't let some affect you with their rather forward blunt opinions, this forum exist for other to be able to ask people and get a wide variety of comments from others experiences that may help in ruling out major problems, and then judge for themselves the quality of those suggestions, it it not intended to be a over the web diagnosic tool... I still wonder how some can do that

Ya I know about the D3, like I said to grimdog, was having a mental moment and got D3 and Phospherous mixed up.

The kids are already doing better, one is still a little bloated but there is no twitching and he's eaten today.
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery