Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Never seen one before.......

Not too many people with Dwarf Bitis. Nice specimen as always.

Mike: I think it's Bitis caldalus, they are "variable" like Squams. Could be one of the other dwarf Bitis species like Cornuta

Cheers!

Al

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Save a Rattlesnake...Skin a Sweetwater Resident!

No, this is not a cauldalis or even a caudalis*. You were not completely blind to reference cornuta as they were classified as a subspecies of cornuta up untill 1999. This animal is however, definitaly B. albanica.
Al, want to see the parents of your caudalis ?

Of course I would like to see her parents and I never claimed I could spell .

The Albany Viper is said to be known from only 8 specimens, how do you have one? This is according to the EMBL reptile database. See link below...Just curious.
B. albanica

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Save a Rattlesnake...Skin a Sweetwater Resident!

That link is not sending me anywhere.

female

male

Nice animals....you have quite a nice collection.

Try this URL:

http://srs.embl-heidelberg.de:8000/srs5bin/cgi-bin/wgetz?-e [REPTILIA-Species:'Bitis_SP_albanica']

I have many questions because not many people keep Dwarf Bitis, no less have as many as you...contact me offline

cerastes@earthlink.net

Cheers!

Al
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Save a Rattlesnake...Skin a Sweetwater Resident!

still cant get anywhere???

I hate when that happens!

http://www.embl-heidelberg.de/~uetz/families/Viperidae.html

try this..then continue to Bitis and you will see each species represented.

This is what it says under B. albanica:
_______________________________________________________________

Species:
Bitis albanica

Synonyms:
Bitis cornuta albanica HEWITT 1937: 76
Bitis albanica - BRANCH 1999: 57

Common name:
Albany Adder

Subspecies:
Family:
Viperidae, Serpentes (snakes)

Distribution:
Republic of South Africa (Eastern Cape Province from Port Elizabeth to near Committees)

Terra typica: Kleinpoort, near Committees, 25 km ENE of Grahamstown (33°14'S, 26°46' E).

Comment:
Venomous! A very rare and probably endangered species (known only from 8 specimens).

Lectotype: PEM R8279 (previously AM 6860)

References:
Branch,W.R. 1999
Dwarf adders of the Bitis cornuta-inornata complex (Serptentes: Viperidae) in Southern Africa.
Kaupia (Darmstadt) (8): 39-63

Hewitt ,J. 1937
A guide to the vertebrate fauna of the Eastern Cape Province, South Africa, Part II: reptile, amphibians, and freshwater fishes.
Grahamstown, vii 141 pp.

Lenk,P.; Herrmann,H. W.; Joger,U. & Wink,M. 1999
Phylogeny and taxonomic subdivision of Bitis (Reptilia: Viperidae) based on molecular evidence.
Kaupia (Darmstadt) (8): 31-38

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Save a Rattlesnake...Skin a Sweetwater Resident!

Better make that ten! Good thing snakes cant read.

I am afraid you have been mislead about this snake. It is indeed a Bitis cornuta, probably from Southern Namibia. Albanica is similar, but this is not one.

Well apparently you should write Bill Branch and let him know that all his work was done in vain and that in your expert opinion after careful hands on examination of this specimen, he was mistaken when he detailed the characteristics of the species, because this animal meets every criteria for classifying albanica to a perfect T. Or maybe you should wipe your computer screen clean and give a more detailed examination than a glance over the internet, as I and many other experts have.
You are wrong, but thanks for your opinion!! What were you basing this uninformed decision on anyway?

Now this is a cornuta from S. Namibia. Note the pronounced horns typical of this portion of the range.

Hi
Yes maybe you are right. If you have access to taking a DNA sample of these animals, I can determine for sure. While albanica does not usually look like this ( and I admit, I am wrong in making this a criteria for identification ), these dwarf Bitis are sometimes rather cryptic. I have seen albanica in the wild a few times and Bill Branch is NOT the god of African herp taxonomy as most think, but I would gladly take the samples to be tested. Interesting that South Africa, nor Namibia for that matter, have issued a permit to export these animals legally in the last 11 years. Hope to hear from you again, as It would really aid my work to actually get some samples from you, cheers.

You should be very careful when making accusations, even as subtle as the one you are implying.
Assumptions are not excepted by science and your opinions are based on very little information. Perhaps you have been studying the wrong species and the "albanica" you have seen in the wild were in fact cornuta from southern Namibia. OR could it be possible that out of the hundreds of albanica you have seen, in every possible locality (recorded and not yet recorded,) this one may appear a slight bit different, even if only VERY superficially ?
Attacking Branch's work seems a bit arrogant as well, since this is the recognized and accepted standard for classification of the species within the cornuta complex.
You seem like an educated man, and it would be foolish of me to assume I know something that you don't, but an ignorant statement is an ignorant statement. I realize you are probably doing some important research, but that doesn't make you a god on African herpetology either. Making an uneducated guess about a snake that is not very well known, from a photo is fine, just don't state it as fact, unless you are prepared to be wrong, as is the case. I am guessing that your agenda was just to let everyone know that you have seen albanica before, then I get it, you have seen albanica before.
By the way, I would love to hear about the research you are involved in.

Hi Xeropaga

I think you misunderstood my comment about Branch. No he is not god, and neither am I. People too often make the mistake of trusting one source when it comes to taxonomy, and this is dangerous. He is indeed a respected herpetologist.In fact, here in SA, there are many many references to herp taxonomy which are different to Branchs'. Yes I have seen albanica in the wild a few times, as well as many other dwarf Bitis. This indeed does not make anyone an expert, although probably more experienced than someone who has bought an illegal animal. I have worked on them at various levels, including taxonomy mtDNA level, hence my interest for a sample. Thanks for asking about some of my work. I will gladly email you offline with more info if your are interested., cheers

Just as it was ignorant in assuming you could identify a specimen more accurately from a photo, than experts who have actually been able to examine it, you have now made an equally uninformed accusation based on absolutely no information. If you are not to busy making presumptive statements, could you please take the time to point out where anyone spoke of this animal being "purchased", "illegal", or even in the hands of private ownership. You are guessing that this animals parents were not exported as a group of eastern many horned adders (B. cornuta albanica) more then twelve years ago, that the picture was taken recently, and that the animal didn't die of old age ten years ago. You are assuming that it was exported at all, and not sitting in an RSA snake park, misidentified as cornuta by an expert of your caliber. Want to see a live B. rubida, labeled as a caudalis, it is completely legal and on permit, nature conservation officials walk right passed it on a regular basis?
Before legislation prevented it, how many albanica were exported as cornuta? I mean, even a trained professional like yourself, in this day and age, in spite of Branch's hard work describing the difference in these species for you, has trouble identifying the difference by sight alone. Would it surprise you to learn that the species was actually exported quite frequently before it was realized that there was anything more than a superficial difference separating the "eastern population" (as was believed at the time) from the other populations of cornuta?
You are assuming that no one else could possibly know something that you don't, already done much of the same work you are, or also see albanica in the wild on a much more frequent basis. You are assuming that what you think, is most probably fact, when in reality, you are limiting your ability to learn by assuming there is nothing you don't already know. Where questions needed to be asked, instead you made statements, assuming you already knew the answers.
What type of science are they teaching these days? I guess things have changed since receiving my degree.
Back when I was only a student, scientists emphasized a little thing they liked to base opinions on... INFORMATION! Now, I realize that it is usually much easier to circumvent this pesky little "information" , but it should not be discounted as it is sometimes useful.
It is unfortunate that you have started things off on the wrong foot as I would love to converse with you more on the subject.