Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Today, I went out to my turtle enclosure to give them fresh water, and as it was 97 degrees, to let the water dish overflow for awhile and flood the lower part of the pen, and I was stunned to find Yertle, my first ornate box turtle who I've had for four years, dead. I am heartbroken.

She had seemed a little out of sorts, maybe, but not ill.
For the last couple of weeks she had been hanging out in an area of the pen that was out of character for her. I had repositioned the water dish and planted a tall clump of ornamental grass next to it so I thought maybe it was somehow appealing to her. I made sure she soaked, if I could find her, every afternoon and she almost enjoyed a good swim.
I had looked for her yesterday but figured she had found a good hiding place to keep cool. Last night I found where she was sleeping, but she wasn't there this morning which wasn't unusual.

When I found her dead today it was like she had just come out of the entrance to one of the hiding areas and just died. I don't think she had been dead for very long.

So I am just frustrated...could I have done anything, did I miss something....did the heat get her....although the pen is mostly in the shade with some sunny spots...and there are several good cool hiding areas. I have no way of knowing for sure but she seemed older than the other ornates I have, her shell was VERY smooth with few ridges. I first thought she was a male because she has red eyes, although compared to the males they are a little more orangish....she produced 4 babies in 2002 and three in 2004.

Anyway, something seemed a little different about her, but she didn't seem sick, her eyes were bright and clear, there was no nasal discharge, she ate well, etc.

The weather has been erratic, we've had very little rain and about three weeks ago, after they were all up, eating and procreating, we had a cold period when temps dropped down to the 50s. I had one turtle that I was beginning to worry about as I had not seen him come up from hibernation, that I finally found, caked with mud, still in his burrow but with his head exposed, almost three weeks ago, after the cold snap ended.
So things are a little weird this year. The males seem more sex starved than usual this year, I'm seeing more homosexual couplings this year and for the first time ever, I've seen a couple attempts by ornate males to mate with three toad females although I don't think they were successful.

Anyway, I'm just feeling sad about this....thanks for listening.

Yertle in her favorite swimming hole June 15, 2004....

I'm sorry Yertle is gone. That's a very cute picture of her, she looks very special.

I'm sorry for you. she was a very pretty girl.

I know how you feel. I just lost one of my horned lizards a little over a month ago. he was a little off too after coming up from hibernation. had problems with him not wanting to hydrate or eat much the first couple weeks. I made some changes and he was coming back to normal...then one day he was gone, just a little over an hour after I last checked on him. he seemed fine earlier. I believe he hadn't yet been caught up on hydration and the heat got to him. it was only in the mid 80's. I did a lot of questioning and beating myself up too because I just missed probably saving him. he was still warm, limp, and his coloration was still very bright. I have since modified my plans on outdoor setups and I think it goes for turtles too. 90% shade and let them decide. I had plenty of shaded hides, but still too much surface area around in the sun, which could cause it to still get too hot under the hides.

in your case it could have been something else. but it sounds like you too check on your's regular to make sure they're all right. sometimes if there is a self doubt, the best thing to do is just to be resolved that you have to do it better for the one's that are still around. I know not much can be said by anyone to take away the hurt...but I hope it helps knowing that others know how it feels too.

Mick

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"A man that should call every thing by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy."

The Complete Works of Goerge Savile, First Marquess of Halifax, 1912.

I'm so sorry for your loss & for Mick's loss of the lizard too.

PHRatz

I'm so sorry to hear about Yertle.
A couple of years ago, one of ours was acting differently (for her): soaking alot in the pond, and walking alot. It was while she was walking that I noticed she was limping, and found, on closer inspection, that a hind leg was quite swollen. A trip to the vet followed, and she was treated for a bad infection. There were no wounds, no breathing difficulties, appetite was ok, nothing except the puffy leg and the unusual behavior.
I would stop short of recommending a visit to the vet for every last little thing, but maybe 'unusual behavior' warrants a check-up in certain cases.
Here in VA the weather has been unusual: somewhat mild winter, followed by a cool spring, and I've been watching ours pretty closely. Sure enough, one of the sub-adults is sounding a little chortly when it breathes, and blew a bubble out its nose for me yesterday, so I'll be visiting the vet this week.
Again, I'm very sorry about your turtle. She was a beauty.
Regards,
Stephanie

Thanks for all responses, it helps to communicate with people who understand. I love all my turtles, but there was something about Yertle that made my heart flutter, and that somewhat applies to the other female ornates, they're just so sweet.
The males are a little more aggressive.

But yeah, while I could not see any overt sign of illness at all, something didn't seem quite right, although I still can't put my finger on it. She was always hanging out by the water dish in the morning. Usually they hang around the edges of the pen, which offers some protection from predators, etc., with a ledge built around the top with hardware cloth. I'm wondering if she had gotten where she couldn't climb into the water dish, which is a large clay plant saucer. I always put her in every day, but in the past I would find her already in it, as she really loved water. She did move around the pen throughout the day, but something seemed odd the way I'd find her around the water dish and the clump of grass. Saturday was the only day I don't think I changed the water, but I'm not sure. I went out in the that afternoon and the water seemed clear, it was in the shade and not warm, they all seemed to be hiding. But now I wonder if I had found Yertle Saturday afternoon and made her soak, would it had made a difference? Or when I found her sleeping later that evening?

I looked her over very carefully and couldn't find any wounds, unusual swellings, discharges, anything. And I now think she may have died not too long before I found her. When I found her I could move her legs, but this morning when I was getting ready to bury her, I couldn't, she was stiff.

Can you tell I'm in the "torture myself phase"?

I'm nursing a female three toed inside right now because a male was mating with her on Friday and he cut her up with his toenails. So I've been cleaning the wounds with nolvasan and applying neosporin. Anyone else ever see injuries from mating?

Thanks again for listening.

Yeah, I can tell...
It might help to try to remind yourself that you might be able to learn something from the experience, say, about behavior changes being indicative of something else being wrong.

I know what you mean about some of them really 'speaking to you', especially the females. We have a couple of sub-adult females that just make me smile everytime I see them. And I swear they smile back.

As for maybe having been able to save her, well, I don't think you should beat yourself up about that: she may well have been too far gone by the time it even registered that something was different about what she was doing. A more productive thing for you to do would be to write down notes of everything that she did that was unusual for your own future reference.
Again, I'm really sorry to hear about your girl.
Stephanie

yes, write it down. a log is good to have.

I always am on guard, and keep in mind that reptiles will mask symptoms of illness to as not to appear weak to predators... most of the time until they are too weak to keep it up, and it is too late.

I would have to concur with the observations of the females. they're so dang smart. you can really see stuff going on in there with those eyes. the males are so, just "there" sometimes, and too task/instinct oriented. maybe they're just more logical though, and don't show as many emotions!

Mick
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"A man that should call every thing by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy."

The Complete Works of Goerge Savile, First Marquess of Halifax, 1912.

About mating injuries: with ours the injuries are usually mild, and a result of persistent pecking, not claw damage.
I try to seperate them if the girls are obviously uninterested before anything major happens, so we haven't had anything serious result. We have some males that definitely don't give up readily, and if they show themselves to be relentless, we put them in 'solitary' for a few days.
It helps that I work from home and can check them fairly regularly, so we've avoided serious problems (so far).
I will suggest that you keep her away from the others until she's completely healed though, so the wound doesn't re-open. In case you hadn't thought of it...
Stephanie

Yes, she's been inside since it happened. The male made a gash right where the skin meets the carapace, so I've been flushing it out with nolvasan and won't put her out until I'm sure its completely healed, which will probably be soon.

sorry to hear about her passing
the only thing I can think of that might have caused her death (other than possible old age) was you said you put in a new plant? was it newly bought maybe there were chemicle fertilizers or something on it?? who knows, just watch the rest of your group.
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The plant was actually a clump of wild grass that I dug up alongside our driveway which is on the edge of woods. It was pretty and it needed to be moved so rather than "kill" it, I put it in the turtle pen. We don't use weed and feed, fertilizers, pesticides, anything(much to my husband's chagrin).

My gut feeling is that it was probably age, possibly complicated by a very erratic spring. If I can find a good set of photos to use as a comparison between Yertle and my other female ornates, I'll post them. Her shell was relatively undamaged, but it had a different look to it than the others, it was very, very smooth. Her skin on her neck and back of her legs was probably a little more wrinkled. I would guess it would be possible for an older turtle, or any turtle, to have
something like a heart attack or a stroke. If it were anything like liver or kidney failure, there wasn't anything like bloating or swelling.

Nonetheless, I am watching the others like a hawk. They are all eating well. We still are vacillating between hot/dry and cool/rainy.

I am very sorry for your lost. I know from reading your many posts that you are an excellent box turtle keeper and I doubt that your sweet ornate died from anything you did, or did not do. All living things must die. As keepers of these wonderful creatures we just have to be sure that while they are in our care we do the very best for them, and you have Best to you and to your other turtles! Hope you feel better soon.
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Tess
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